[clbmw]

Originally Posted by PhoenixWolf

Awesomeness! Make a super car also.

+1 and share the suspension tech.

In fact why not just merge and have IMO the best of mass market prestige and best of supercars in one company (I'm sure many will disagree with that but so what) - rather BMW than Apple any day of the week.

[PARTS@STBMW]

YAS!

[lasovan]

Some info: http://www.evo.co.uk/mclaren/f1/1878...nes-once-again

And some great videos.

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by Law

I like how McLaren's own link on the "McLaren F1: The Story" makes no mention of BMW whatsoever.

In any case, this is exciting news but both McLaren and BMW have a lot to live-up to.
The S70/2 was a masterpiece and the golden days of Gordon Murray and Paul Rosche is long gone.
Interested to see how the talent of today compares to the passion of the days of yore.

I think they did not want the engine supplier to get all the credit for their car, but then again the fact is the engine is the most awesome part of the car as this video from EVO proves!

[Law]

Originally Posted by Paul-Bracq-BMW

I think they did not want the engine supplier to get all the credit for their car, but then again the fact is the engine is the most awesome part of the car as this video from EVO proves!

"Powered by BMW"

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

2 Epic drives onboard a McLaren F1 GTR (race car version of the F1):

Andrew Gilbert-Scott at le Mans onboard the Gulf F1 GTR

Ralf Schumacher setting the pole position at Suzuka in 1996 in an F1 GTR (before his Formula One days). He also won the race.

Nothing beats a perfectly driven race car with a manual gearbox. The upshifts and perfectly rev-matched downshifts are glorious. IMO, Ralf drive was perfect as he makes it so effortless while setting the pole position. You often see other drivers fighting the steering wheel the same car when he keeps its movement to a minimum!

[Jay-K]

both favorite car brands!, please get something exciting out!

[bmwcoder]

Wow! I wonder what this really happen?

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by noro

+1 .. I was discussing this with friends the other day how even the non performance oriented manufacturers now have super cars while BMW has none.

..if someone says the i8 I will lose my mind...

BMW has never had a super car. So why start now? The M1 was a sports car, that didn't compete with Lamborghini or Ferrari, but was more on the level of the 911 Turbo. The closest connection to supercar status is the F1, which was seriously considering Mercedes power.

So, unless some BMW M engineers got some of the BMW AG executives hookers, and rented a AMG GT and took pictures of them is said car with said hookers, then there may never be a business case for a supercar from BMW.

[David70]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

BMW has never had a super car. So why start now? The M1 was a sports car, that didn't compete with Lamborghini or Ferrari, but was more on the level of the 911 Turbo. The closest connection to supercar status is the F1, which was seriously considering Mercedes power.

So, unless some BMW M engineers got some of the BMW AG executives hookers, and rented a AMG GT and took pictures of them is said car with said hookers, then there may never be a business case for a supercar from BMW.

Agree and really wonder what the Ford GT program will cost Ford and how many additional Ford's it will help sell. Vast majority of possible car buyers don't know it exists or would care if they new and even for the enthusiast like me, I like the GT 350 but the GT doesn't sway me one way or the other.

Some have pointed out that most racing is great for the executives to have a fun weekend but the additional business it creates doesn't justify the cost. I definitely think this is true when it comes to large manufacturers building really small volume super cars. Get much above $200k and I think the business case is missing.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

BMW has never had a super car. So why start now? The M1 was a sports car, that didn't compete with Lamborghini or Ferrari, but was more on the level of the 911 Turbo.

I really don't know how you can say that it didn't compete with Ferrari, Lambo, etc. when:
- The M1 was originally a joint project with Lamborghini, which didn't have the capital at the time to homologate it because it went temporarily bankrupt. So BMW did.
- The M1 was produced in such small numbers that compare far more to an Italian car than the 911 -- which at the time needed to be either a Turbo or a RUF variant to be considered truly 'exotic'
- The M1's body was designed by the same man who designed the body for these contemporary cars: Maserati Quarttroporte & Merak, Ferrari 250 GT, Lotus Esprit (looks similar, actually) Lancia Delta, and the DeLorean
- The M1 made considerably more power than the Ferrari 308 and approached the power made by Lamborghini Miura and the LP400 Lamborghini Countach.

No, the M1 wasn't a supercar. Then again, neither was the 308 or the Countach. They were exotics. Not supercars.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

I really don't know how you can say that it didn't compete with Ferrari, Lambo, etc. when:
- The M1 was originally a joint project with Lamborghini, which didn't have the capital at the time to homologate it because it went temporarily bankrupt. So BMW did.
- The M1 was produced in such small numbers that compare far more to an Italian car than the 911 -- which at the time needed to be either a Turbo or a RUF variant to be considered truly 'exotic'
- The M1's body was designed by the same man who designed the body for these contemporary cars: Maserati Quarttroporte & Merak, Ferrari 250 GT, Lotus Esprit (looks similar, actually) Lancia Delta, and the DeLorean
- The M1 made considerably more power than the Ferrari 308 and approached the power made by Lamborghini Miura and the LP400 Lamborghini Countach.

No, the M1 wasn't a supercar. Then again, neither was the 308 or the Countach. They were exotics. Not supercars.

What I meant by Lamborghini or Ferrari was the V12 models. It did compete with the lower end "sports car" models. You just proved my point. It was a joint endeavor with Lamborghini. You think Lamborghini is going say, "Yes, I will help you make a competitor to the Countach, when we already have our hands full with Ferrari."? Nope. Even looking at Wikipedia it is listed as a sports car.
Don't let your BMW rose tinted glasses fool you. The M1 had 273 hp in street trim. The e28 M5 with the same engine had more horsepower. The Porsche 930 Turbo with the 3.3 from the same time period had about 260ish. The M1 needed
to forced induction to make high hp, and that was with the Pro-Cars. The Miura was making 350 and up, and that is with a V12 and was not in the same era as the M1, end of production for the Miura was 1973.
Supercars of the time were the Countach, the Ferrari 512 BB, etc. The M1 was playing with half the cylinders, and far less horsepower.
Exotics is an umbrella term for Euro super cars and sports cars that tend to come from the higher end brands. The 308 was Ferrari volume sports car, which was an "exotic". The 308 QV made about 245 hp. And the M1 fits that bill as well.

In short, the M1 was a defunct mid-engined sports car experiment from BMW that had a one make racing series (like the Jaguar XJR-14), which when you look back was doomed from the start. And from it's automotive womb came forth the e28 M5, the e30 M3, and the e34 M5 (which used an upgraded version of the e28 M5 engine) and the styling of the 8 series and i8.

And here is the question. If the M1 is remembered so fondly by people, why hasn't BMW decided to venture down that road again? I mean, they could have done it in the mid 2000s. An up-rated S85, or a V12 version by adding two more cylinders. Or in the early 2000s, taking two S54s and putting them together to make an M V12, with bespoked styling. Or even taking a Turbo V12 and wrapping some pseudo-homage body around it.
Why? Because to BMW AG, it's about money, and they don't want to spend money for something that may not have a good return. No matter how much M Division and the public cries for it. And the fact was that the M1 was a bad experiment that people only remember fondly, because the car looked so good.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by David70

Agree and really wonder what the Ford GT program will cost Ford and how many additional Ford's it will help sell. Vast majority of possible car buyers don't know it exists or would care if they new and even for the enthusiast like me, I like the GT 350 but the GT doesn't sway me one way or the other.

Some have pointed out that most racing is great for the executives to have a fun weekend but the additional business it creates doesn't justify the cost. I definitely think this is true when it comes to large manufacturers building really small volume super cars. Get much above $200k and I think the business case is missing.

I think the new Ford GT will have an issue in the future. Nostalgia will go to the first Ford GT---it had a V8. And it sounds better than the new Ford GT. The new Ford GT looks better. It could be seen as Ford's spiritual successor to the Porsche GT1. Also, the whole applying for the first go supply of the 2017 Ford GT left a lot of people with a bad taste in their mouths. When YouTube stars getting in and not long term Ford owners.
Your last point, I agree.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

What I meant by Lamborghini or Ferrari was the V12 models. It did compete with the lower end "sports car" models. You just proved my point. It was a joint endeavor with Lamborghini. You think Lamborghini is going say, "Yes, I will help you make a competitor to the Countach, when we already have our hands full with Ferrari."? Nope. Even looking at Wikipedia it is listed as a sports car.
Don't let your BMW rose tinted glasses fool you. The M1 had 273 hp in street trim. The e28 M5 with the same engine had more horsepower. The Porsche 930 Turbo with the 3.3 from the same time period had about 260ish. The M1 needed
to forced induction to make high hp, and that was with the Pro-Cars. The Miura was making 350 and up, and that is with a V12 and was not in the same era as the M1, end of production for the Miura was 1973.
Supercars of the time were the Countach, the Ferrari 512 BB, etc. The M1 was playing with half the cylinders, and far less horsepower.
Exotics is an umbrella term for Euro super cars and sports cars that tend to come from the higher end brands. The 308 was Ferrari volume sports car, which was an "exotic". The 308 QV made about 245 hp. And the M1 fits that bill as well.

In short, the M1 was a defunct mid-engined sports car experiment from BMW that had a one make racing series (like the Jaguar XJR-14), which when you look back was doomed from the start. And from it's automotive womb came forth the e28 M5, the e30 M3, and the e34 M5 (which used an upgraded version of the e28 M5 engine) and the styling of the 8 series and i8.

And here is the question. If the M1 is remembered so fondly by people, why hasn't BMW decided to venture down that road again? I mean, they could have done it in the mid 2000s. An up-rated S85, or a V12 version by adding two more cylinders. Or in the early 2000s, taking two S54s and putting them together to make an M V12, with bespoked styling. Or even taking a Turbo V12 and wrapping some pseudo-homage body around it.
Why? Because to BMW AG, it's about money, and they don't want to spend money for something that may not have a good return. No matter how much M Division and the public cries for it. And the fact was that the M1 was a bad experiment that people only remember fondly, because the car looked so good.

Because it is not necessary for every damned carmaker to build a supercar.

::drops mic::

Dude, check your horsepower stats on the Miura. The 3.5L version of the V12 never made more than about 320hp before Lambo started boring it out for the original periscope Countach. But I digress ...

Bottom line: At the time, Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche, Lotus, Lancia, Maserati, and others were in the business of making sports cars and higher. BMW was not.

Also: I never said that the M1 was a supercar. Because it wasn't. And neither was the Countach as originally built. Lamborghini turned it into one into the 1980s by boring the snot out of that V12 because the early 1980s is when the 'supercar' as we define it began appearing. The 'supercar' actually made Lamborghini viable as a company. The 'supercar' as we know it now basically didn't exist before 1980. We certainly didn't tag American muscle cars that in the late 1960s, or Aston Martins or Lotii, or Porsches (even the Turbo) or any other German car, or the Renault Alpine, or what have you from Italy -- even the Miura or Ferrari's cars before 1980.

They were exotic. None were supercars.

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

BMW has never had a super car. So why start now? The M1 was a sports car, that didn't compete with Lamborghini or Ferrari, but was more on the level of the 911 Turbo. The closest connection to supercar status is the F1, which was seriously considering Mercedes power.

So, unless some BMW M engineers got some of the BMW AG executives hookers, and rented a AMG GT and took pictures of them is said car with said hookers, then there may never be a business case for a supercar from BMW.

You are mistaken if you say that the M1 was not a supercar. It is a much better supercar than the Countach and Testarossa: similar performance (mid 5 secs 0-60) but can be used as a daily driver...

Read this article from Car and Driver (from 1981): http://www.caranddriver.com/features...the-m1-feature

[Paul-Bracq-BMW]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Because it is not necessary for every damned carmaker to build a supercar.

::drops mic::

Dude, check your horsepower stats on the Miura. The 3.5L version of the V12 never made more than about 320hp before Lambo started boring it out for the original periscope Countach. But I digress ...

Bottom line: At the time, Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche, Lotus, Lancia, Maserati, and others were in the business of making sports cars and higher. BMW was not.

Also: I never said that the M1 was a supercar. Because it wasn't. And neither was the Countach as originally built. Lamborghini turned it into one into the 1980s by boring the snot out of that V12 because the early 1980s is when the 'supercar' as we define it began appearing. The 'supercar' actually made Lamborghini viable as a company. The 'supercar' as we know it now basically didn't exist before 1980. We certainly didn't tag American muscle cars that in the late 1960s, or Aston Martins or Lotii, or Porsches (even the Turbo) or any other German car, or the Renault Alpine, or what have you from Italy -- even the Miura or Ferrari's cars before 1980.

They were exotic. None were supercars.

Terminology is just semantics, fact is they were the "supercars" of their time.

[FrankiE90]

Ayrton Senna awoke from the grave...

[TimberWolf_3063]

Most of the major supercar companies - Porsche, Ferrari, McLaren, Lamborghini - , aside from their bread-and-butter production vehicles (i.e. 911, 458/488, 570/650, Gallardo/Huracan) have a hybrid supercar - 918 Spyder, LaFerrari, P1 (Lamborghini's Asterion LPI910-4, supposedly on the way).

The i8 is a gorgeous car that falls short on performance. Not slow by any means, but limited by Efficient Dynamics - an engineering philosophy that works great for volume cars such as the 3 and 5-Series, not Halo cars.

The I12 platform is built as an electric hybrid with good handling and aerodynamics, and McLaren has joined forces to build Halo cars before (McLaren-Mercedes SLR).
Unless BMW is willing to do the job alone with the S63B44 and a DCT, it is time for a joint BMW-McLaren engine (turbo V8?) to be dropped into the I12 chassis, and showcase what this car really can do when fitted with a proper high-performance engine and rubber wider than bicycle tires.

End of transmission.

[N & M]

Originally Posted by Law

Agreed.
There is definitely a "trickle-down" effect when it comes to engineering something like this.

My dear M fans, I think we are reading too much into this. What the news says is that BMW's contribution is casting tech, fuel economy and emissions. There is no mention of cross sharing of the resulting engine or an M engine program that will also benefit.

It seems to me that in our desire to bring back some glories of the past we have created a fantasy that is unlikely.

My view; BMW will continue with its 2 current engines until the next gen of propulsion tech is viable for performance development.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by N & M

My dear M fans, I think we are reading too much into this. What the news says is that BMW's contribution is casting tech, fuel economy and emissions. There is no mention of cross sharing of the resulting engine or an M engine program that will also benefit.

Sure, but the mere fact that they are collaborating is great news. Specifically, this could help BMW with higher output turbocharged engines without the need to use water injection. They cannot afford to fall behind the curve in the area of specific output, whether it is entry level engines or high performance M engines.

My view; BMW will continue with its 2 current engines until the next gen of propulsion tech is viable for performance development.

Which two are those? BMW has the B* inline (currently 3, 4, and 6 cylinder in both gasoline and diesel variants), the N63/S63 V8, and the N74 V12. The N55/S55 are still in use but nearing end of life.

There is a high likelihood of a new V8 family soon. The reason is that the existing design dates back to the original M60 from some thirty years ago, and although it debuted in 3L and 4L displacements, it's 98mm bore center was chosen with expansion in mind. Eventually, it was grown to nearly 5L for use in the E39 M5 and Z8. However, it is larger than necessary for today's turbocharged applications. If BMW intends to continue using V8 engines - and they clearly do since even the brand new G30 5 Series is offered with one - a more compact design is necessary to compete with Mercedes (90mm) and Audi (91mm) in packaging and weight.

[LeckMaren]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

I hope Freevalve is part of this! Probably the single biggest improvement possible for power/fuel economy and emissions since the unibody chassis.

Correct me if im wrong here, but freevalve was developed by Qoros and Koenigsegg, wasn't it?
How would this technology be part of an agreement between BMW and McLaren?

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by LeckMaren

Correct me if im wrong here, but freevalve was developed by Qoros and Koenigsegg, wasn't it?
How would this technology be part of an agreement between BMW and McLaren?

Pay for the license, anybody can have have it.