[86merc]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

American cars are only fast in a straight line... try this at a real track then come talk to me.

The Mustang and Camaro are not the same cars they were even 10 years ago. The 2015+ Musatng was designed with the M3 in mind. These new cars handle and brake like no other pony car before them. You can't make the same handling arguments nowadays that you could have back then. Especially the new platform the Camaro is on. The 5th gen handled well but was heavy. The new platform saved like 300 pounds. That is a huge help as well.

Make no mistake though, the 1LE suspension is much more firm on the SS. I would assume the ZL1 1LE would be the same way. The 1LE might not be as livable for some as it might be for others. There is a trade-off for that handling.

Originally Posted by paliknight

Im usually not a fan of american cars (only pickup trucks), but the GT350 and ZL1 LE are very impressive vehicles.

I just hate the style of the camaro. I wish they would redesign it and make it look less bulky, and fix the shitty interior visibility. I would definitely consider one at that point.

The GT350 would be a consideration if it wasnt selling at a crazy markup.

You can find GT350 for sticker. The GT350R still commands a dealer markup though.

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

Worked at a GM dealer for a while, and although I haven't driven the ZL1, I have driven the new SS, and everything before it- Z/28, 5th ZL1, etc.

If you think anything shy of a heavily optioned 5 Series has a better interior than these new Camaros, you're kidding yourself. That's flat out refusing to look beyond the badge.

And GM's new chassis make nearly all modern BMW's feel like Camrys in comparison.

The new platform the Camaro is on is impressive. It is closing the gap on performance with the Corvette. The c7 seems to be plagued with issues as well, mainly cooling. Which from an engineering standpoint there is only so much you can do with the vette due to it's smaller front end.

The interior is much better than they had been in the past. They are on par with other manufacturers. They might have more plastic than other cars. But they are not the rattly and hard plastic they were years ago. They use a lot more soft touch materials and have good build quality. I would expect this to continue to improve as these cars get more and more expensive. They are not the cheap, go-fast cars they once were.

[KingOfJericho]

My comment was purely in jest. This thing is a fucking BEAST!

[Way Of The Rondel]

I have owned many BMWs' to include a highly modified E92 M3. I can tell you first hand that the base ZL1 will destroy anything BMW has to offer on the track. As far as the ZL1 goes, you get standard features such as HUD, heated/cooled RECARO seats, Auto Rev Match (6MT), Line Lock (for burnouts), interior mood lighting, illuminated door sills, alcantara steering wheel, gear shift knob, door panels and dash trim, auto dimming side and rear view mirrors, 8" touchscreen with Apple/Android car play, Magnetic Ride Control (MRC), Electronic Limited Slip Differential (ELSD), MASSIVE BREMBO brakes and last but not least, a SUPERCHARGER! The Americans are back in the game in a big way. Oh, did i mention, you can pick up a ZL1 6mt for about 58,000.00+TT&L (possibly less)?

[86merc]

Someone also mentioned the tires the Camaro uses are very wide. They are. They have to be due to the weight of these cars. The weight is the biggest thing I notice when I drive my 2015 Mustang GT versus my 2009 335i. On the track and road course. You can really tell the car is larger and heavier. Both cars are a blast to drive and have their advantages. It is a great time to be a car guy. There are so many good options out there no matter what your budget is.

[86merc]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

My comment was purely in jest. This thing is a fucking BEAST!

In jest of not, that is the type of comment pony car people get from Import owners. haha Back in the day they would be correct. Things have definitely changed. You have to love when competition drives manufacturers to do better than the status quo.

[mookie45]

American muscle has made great strides over the past couple decades. They are no joke now and here to stay. Been following IMSA and the Vettes/Ford GT's are super competitive.

That German "exclusivity" is getting old.

[KenB925]

Originally Posted by 86merc

Someone also mentioned the tires the Camaro uses are very wide. They are. They have to be due to the weight of these cars. The weight is the biggest thing I notice when I drive my 2015 Mustang GT versus my 2009 335i. On the track and road course. You can really tell the car is larger and heavier. Both cars are a blast to drive and have their advantages. It is a great time to be a car guy. There are so many good options out there no matter what your budget is.

According to MT, the lightest 2009 335i weighs in at about 3600lbs the 2015 GT is 3800lbs (coupe) edit, and where the weight is carried, 'pony cars' tend to be a little nose heavy

I like a light car, but sometimes its the tuning of the bits that make if feel light or not.

Fast cars tend to carry around a little more weight, quick nimble cars (miata) can get away with being lighter.

To be fast, and a real car, that you can live with, you need more and more power, which means you need more brakes, which means you need more tires, and you have to keep all that power cool, which means more heat exchangers, and fluids, bigger drive lines, axles, etc.

Its not just american cars, look at an E30 M3 compared to a new one, or the first 911 turbo compared to a 991. I recall that when the 997 Turbo came out it had more weight on it rear axle the the entire 1975 991 Turbo weighed.

[86merc]

exactly. Newer cars are filled with more electronics for entertainment and luxury. As well as safety and stability control. Add power seats, trunks, door actuators and so on and they get bloated real quick.

I think the 5th Gen Z28 proved there really wasn't a market for a stripped down race car marketed as a street car. They just didn't sell well. There were big discounts to move them. The GT350 has had more convenience package cars built in 2016 than track pack cars. Most people are not willing to give up these luxuries.

So as these cars get heavier everything else has to get bigger as well. Which adds even more weight. The increased weight is a necessary evil I guess you could say. Props to GM for making the 6th Gen lighter than the 5th Gen. I can imagine that was not an easy feat.

[Way Of The Rondel]

Originally Posted by Lobb

Hmmmmmm.

You missing the point. The Camaro is cheap for a reason. That's all.

It must be nice to be in a perpetual state of ignorance.

[KenB925]

Originally Posted by Lobb

You must have got a good one. The two examples I tried in the UK were poor when compared to any of the Germans in any measure of NVH and the interior was plain nasty

maybe the V-6 or the i4 are more 'buzzy'

They definitely threw more resources at developing the ZL1

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Lobb

Hmmmmmm.

You missing the point. The Camaro is cheap for a reason. That's all.

It's amusing that you quoted a statement listing where money actually goes, suspension, chassis, brakes, etc. Its not interior vinyl, fancy keys with display screens and chrome bangles for the outside.

BMW hasn't made a new 3 or 5 with better dynamics than the previous one in three or four generations. But they've added all kinds of creature comforts and gadgets. More distracted drivers, fewer actual "drivers."

[86merc]

Why haven't "Zee Deutsch ist das beste" guys made mention of the m4 GTS as a comparison to the ZL1 1LE? Seems the sticker price is about the same between the two. The GTS ran 7:28 I believe. I have heard the GTS seems to be more "racecar" due to lack of comfort and harsher suspension. But I have only read a couple of articles on the GTS. But seems there is a compromise with the GTS in areas to better performance.

So in the spirit of a BMW comparison and conversation, what do you guys say about these two?

[1MOREMOD]

Isn't gts 140k

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Lobb

Can't agree with that. My f30 would run rings round my e90 in any measure of chassis performance.

Interesting, our LCI F30 is so dead dynamically if I had a time machine and came from before 2008 or so and drove it, I'd assume it was a Lexus or MB. So little steering feel, no feedback, still the awful RFT's and no limited slip.

The scary thing is that while the Germans have largely been coasting on past success, the Americans have been pouring money into chassis and dynamic areas. With a mild styling update, the death of CUE and a real gauge set, the ATS would be twice the car of the F30 or likely the G chassis coming.

[86merc]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

It's gts 140k

I thought that was with a market adjustment. That is the sticker on them? I am sure the ZL1 1LE will be north of $100K with the dealer markups. So ZL1 is still cheaper. But seems the fact is the gts is kind of a harsh street car with "similar" purchase cost.

[yousefnjr]

Originally Posted by 86merc

I thought that was with a market adjustment. That is the sticker on them? I am sure the ZL1 1LE will be north of $100K with the dealer markups. So ZL1 is still cheaper. But seems the fact is the gts is kind of a harsh street car with "similar" purchase cost.

I like the GTS because I'm a fanboy, but there's no denying it doesn't come close in value for money

IIRC the GTS MSRP was $130k, and I think I've seen a markup posted here north of $200k

ZL1 1LE msrp is $70k, markups probably incoming.... but will be nowhere near GTS money

For MSRP I'd take the faster car with a manual, and enjoy that extra $60k elsewhere, like on track days and tires for 20 years

[SunnyD]

Originally Posted by 86merc

I thought that was with a market adjustment. That is the sticker on them?

Sticker for a base GTS was around $136K...they were selling for close to $200K when they first came out.

[Bours]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Interesting, our LCI F30 is so dead dynamically if I had a time machine and came from before 2008 or so and drove it, I'd assume it was a Lexus or MB. So little steering feel, no feedback, still the awful RFT's and no limited slip.

The scary thing is that while the Germans have largely been coasting on past success, the Americans have been pouring money into chassis and dynamic areas. With a mild styling update, the death of CUE and a real gauge set, the ATS would be twice the car of the F30 or likely the G chassis coming.

+1 totally agree ! The f30 just isnt a good handling BMW anymore. The suspension is too floaty and has a numb feeling steering...

The e90/e92 gen is the sweet spot for me.
It has a couple gadgets, decent comfort and has a near perfect steering feel..

Its a good middle ground between the hardcore no technology minimal comfort
E46 and the filled with useless tech but super comfortable MB clone F30


Ill keep mine until they comeback to what made BMW best luxury car seller for years in a row aka THE benchmark.

The b58 engine seems nice but not in this F chassis we need this small gem in another gen !

[86merc]

I doubt the ZL1 1LE will get to the gts base price, even with dealer markup. But closer at least. Like yousefnjr, I don't think I could go with the gts over the ZL1. At $200k you would have to be bonkers to buy one. There are a lot of other great cars out there for that kind of coin. But to each their own.

[Way Of The Rondel]

Originally Posted by Lobb

Indeed.

What's it like to be in a permanent state of denial?

I believe your the one in a state of denial. Maybe you should replace the L in your user name with KN.

[Blksnowflake]

Just ridiculous, stop hating, you look dumb.

[Motorsportenterprise]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Interesting, our LCI F30 is so dead dynamically if I had a time machine and came from before 2008 or so and drove it, I'd assume it was a Lexus or MB. So little steering feel, no feedback, still the awful RFT's and no limited slip.

The scary thing is that while the Germans have largely been coasting on past success, the Americans have been pouring money into chassis and dynamic areas. With a mild styling update, the death of CUE and a real gauge set, the ATS would be twice the car of the F30 or likely the G chassis coming.

I actually wouldn't blanket the Germans like that. While BMW has coasted, Porsche and Mercedes and even Audi to a degree are still rocking on handling and dynamics.