[wdb]

Originally Posted by StatenEye

Ocon is a somebody though. He wasn't handed a top F1 car by dad, this is true but when the cars were equal he beat Max up and down the track in F3. The guy finished 8th last year in a sub par car with a team that cant pay their bills. You will see this kid in a top car in the next few years and you'll see him beat MV. Not everyone is born with a silver spoon, some have to get their ass in a kart and grind to the top, others just have to sit in one of the best cars backed by one of the richest teams....

Unfortunately I think Ocon is going to get a short straw in F1. He has talent but no financial backing.

Originally Posted by Woots

So I work for RedBull Racing on Daniel Ricciardo car crew so I’m probably a little better in the know/less likely to go off media hype/albeit perhaps slightly biased (Daniels the better driver anyway, and what?)
I do however think that Max with hindsight should’ve just let him by without losing time and then overtaken after Ocon inevitably cooked his tyres in a slower car, regardless though Ocon should’ve have put himself in the situation with the leader whoever it was. It has however got everyone talking about it more than lewis wining it, so who’s the real winner from a bigger point of view....

Daniel is certainly more easily likeable! I'm really looking forward to seeing what he can do at Renault. And you're right -- the mishap spiced up what would have otherwise been a pretty ho-hum race.

[Poiseuille]

Originally Posted by Woots

So I work for RedBull Racing on Daniel Ricciardo car crew so I'm probably a little better in the know/less likely to go off media hype/albeit perhaps slightly biased (Daniels the better driver anyway, and what?)
I do however think that Max with hindsight should've just let him by without losing time and then overtaken after Ocon inevitably cooked his tyres in a slower car, regardless though Ocon should've have put himself in the situation with the leader whoever it was. It has however got everyone talking about it more than lewis wining it, so who's the real winner from a bigger point of view....

Woots, yer just the man I wanted to talk to: this is where Poiseuille Jr. and I sat in 2017 and watched Daniel eat Kimi's lunch.
As luck would have it we were on the lower catwalk returning with 'refreshments' when that pass happened and we could easily see way up the straight. It was easy to have a premonition of what was about to happen, and we did, but we and everybody else in that grandstand was thinking "no way" or "he's not really going to....." even as Daniel was exiting the chicken leaving Kimi checking his wallet. I've been watching this stuff since race tires were treaded and that pass ranks as one of the damnedest things I've seen on a race track.
I envy you working with a driver as elegant Daniel.

(Edit: "chicken" is how A. Prost always pronounced "chicane"......I think deliberately)
.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by minn19

The (idiot) was faster and had beaten Verstappen to the corner/preferred racing line. Said (idiot) also has a right to race and try and unlap himself etc.

Also as to my previous posts Max’s pride/testosterone wouldn’t allow himself to be passed on worn tires and was clearly slower. He crashed himself out of a possible win instead of just being smart and staying out of trouble with somebody that meant nothing to the race. Like I said, when he learns to let go of that crap he’ll be really a formidable force in F1.

Inexplicably Vettel decided to make decisions like he was new to F1 (similar to MVs long string of rash/poor decisions) and it possibly cost him another title. It certainly would of been a lot closer had SV stayed out of trouble he didn’t have to get into.

Plus Karma is a bitch as they say for MV.......lol

Karma and all the other religions are fairytales ...
But what the idiot did to Max is/was no fairytale !

[Poiseuille]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Nice ! But MAX is actually *Belgian* my friend

well, at least we can all agree on one thing: this guy is definitely Belgian.
.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by StatenEye

Highest bracket in Belgium is 50% Netherlands is 52% according to Google. The kid grew up on the boarder of the two countries in a predominantly dutch town with a dutch father that he spent all his time karting and hanging with. They root for Holland in football as the father says, that should show you where his heart is. I don't really care all that much but you are blinded to the fact the kid is a prick because he's affiliated with Belgium. I dont understand how anyone can get behind such an arrogant ahole, but to each their own.

Max in born September 30 , 1997 in *Hasselt* (Belgium)
Hasselt is nowhere close to the Dutch border . I live 23km from Hasselt and I'm closer to Holland .
I drive everyday to Hasselt because my company is located in Hasselt ..

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by StatenEye

Every F1 driver starts with karting, not the point. I said the grind starts with karting... ending with most others having to grind in F3 through F1 until they are handed a top 6 car. MVs connections and advantages allowed him a fast track through F1 that Ocon was not afforded.... you knew exactly what I meant. If you are denying the kid had a silver spoon through his entire career afforded by his entire family being in racing and his father's f1 connection then I don't know what to say.

Even with your silver spoon Max showed in karting he was the best , he ran with the worldtop from day 1 !
MAX at *age 4* Yes he was only 4 ! Drove his first karting race in Genk and Max won the race !
What Max showed in karting in Genk was beyond believe , a born winner !

The picture shows your silver spoon ...

[minn19]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Karma and all the other religions are fairytales ...
But what the idiot did to Max is/was no fairytale !

Agreed and nor is Max’s long string of poor decisions leading to incidents like this.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by minn19

Agreed and nor is Max’s long string of poor decisions leading to incidents like this.

Max's long string of poor decisions leading him to the *Guinness Book of Records* !!!

[mk1-fan]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Ocon chose a point to unlap Verstappen where Verstappen had to deviate from the ideal driving line. Also he still wasnt past Verstappen when they collided (Verstappens front wheel was in front of Ocon's one).
Imho thats not allowed.
If he wanted to pass Verstappen he should have done it on another spot. When they drove up to the straight there was maybe 6-10 car lenghts in between so Ocon only just passed Verstappen at the end. If Ocon wanted to pass Verstappen without hindering him, he should have taken care of that distance at the beginning and be 2-3 car lengths behind Verstappen when they drove onto the straight.
So pretty poor judgement from Ocon if you ask me.

This is the biggest problem for me. Max was told that Ocon was on fresh Super Soft tyres. max was on much older tyres. He knew he wasn't racing Ocon, but STILL felt the need to block Ocon on the pit straight.

Had he not done that, Ocon would have easily cruised past, unlapped himself, and opened up a gap. If Verstappen managed to catch up to him again, blue flags would have been shown, and Verstappen could lap him again.

Sadly, Verstappen used his heart instead his head, to made a dscision, and a badly one at that.

He must just remember one thing there will be a lot of other young and upcoming new drivers - Ocon, Leclerc, George Russell, etc, who could / will end up in competitive cars. They will want to show everyone that they are a match for him, and will not shy away from confrontation.

[darkbluemn]

Originally Posted by jkoral

Regardless of how you feel, I found the following the best video the whole incident before and after, as seen by Ocon starting with his pit stop and both radio communication of Ocon and Verstappen:

https://streamable.com/fkpqj

As Ocon exits pits, he is shown blue flags with Hamilton behind. Ocon says on radio, blue flags are gone, he starts closing on Verstappen. He is told he can pass Verstappen if he wants.

Verstappen on radio says "I have this Force India behind me pushing."
"Understood," is the response from the RBR pit wall, "he’s out there on fresh supers."

Then look at the closing speed of Ocon on Verstappen. No F1 driver on the grid is going to slam on the brakes with that kind of closing speed just because he is the leader. He went well past him (or at least even) so Max knew he would be on the inside of the next corner. Did he think Ocon was going to disappear or drive off track?

In hindsight, when Force India told Ocon he can pass Verstappen if he wants, it should have been stressed to make it clean, he is the leader.

And I think RBR should have have amended their statement "Understood, he's out there on fresh supers -- let him go, Hamilton still x seconds behind, you're not racing Ocon"

The similar situation happens all the time in race. If the race leader yield to slower car every time, he will not lead any more. At that moment, at position of Max, he has to pick a decision. His decision was made based on the experience and history of this race that 15th position car never fight with leader. Ocon definitely know Max will fight and keep better line, his decision was whether to fight back, and you can definitely see the acceleration into Max's inside line. If look at the corner before, Max already protects his line which told the car behind that he needed his line.

To make it simple, Max already showed the signal that he wanted his line and he knew who was behind. Ocon knew the situation. Max would not expect Ocon to fight that hard, neither would anyone else in the race. That being said Ocon made a decision that was unpredictable which caused the accident.

Maybe the right statement for Ocon should be "You can pass Verstappen with caution and no fight".

[///M Power-Belgium]

Hamilton said after the race to MAX => *Ocon had nothing to lose*

Hamilton's comment was clearly BS ! Check this out....

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by mk1-fan

This is the biggest problem for me. Max was told that Ocon was on fresh Super Soft tyres. max was on much older tyres. He knew he wasn't racing Ocon, but STILL felt the need to block Ocon on the pit straight.

He didnt block Ocon. He kept driving the ideal driving line.
Ocon forced him aside in the corner where the crash happened. Ocon wasnt even past him when they crashed. Even if this was a fight for a place this wouldnt be allowed imho.
Ocon got punished for his move so there is no question who made the illegal move.

Only in hindsight can one say that if he let Ocon pass and offered up some precious seconds from his lead that would be the right move but at that point in the race he still had to complete almost 30 rounds and the lead he had over Hamilton was only 10-15 sec or so. Loosing 1 or 2 sec then is a big deal. You dont know if there will be more of these situations.
Verstappen rightfully said about hamiltons remarks that thats easy coming from someone who's driving in 2nd place and gets the victory thrown in his lap.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by StatenEye

I'm sorry i don't know how to reply to you anymore. You are a fanboy, not gonna change your mind with facts,

#diehardsupporter !

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by StatenEye

If he had a clean driving record then people would give him the benefit of the doubt but he has shown in the past that he is careless and reckless in corners.

Verstappens driving record is not relevant here.
Ocon got punished for his move which shows that Verstappen was not at fault but Ocon was.
Ocon had no right to push him off the track the way he did.
You might think differently, but the people who have a say in this decided it was Ocons fault.
The only thing Verstappen did wrong was his behaviour right after the race, but I can imagine he was pumped with adrenaline after being illegally pushed off the track by a lesser driver.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Verstappens driving record is not relevant here. Ocon got punished for his move which shows that Verstappen was not at fault but Ocon was.
Ocon had no right to push him off the track the way he did.
You might think differently, but the people who have a say in this decided it was Ocons fault.
The only thing Verstappen did wrong was his behaviour right after the race, but I can imagine he was pumped with adrenaline after being illegally pushed off the track by a lesser driver.

Punishment is not evidence, although we all clearly agree that Ocon was at least responsible for a majority. Ocon didn't push him off the track though. Ocon was squeezed off of the inside of the track. Would you say that it was in Max's best interest to assume that Ocon, who was alongside him in the turn just prior, would disappear from alongside him?

[minn19]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Max's long string of poor decisions leading him to the *Guinness Book of Records* !!!

As I said in previous posts there is no denying his talent. But, he’ll never be a F1 Champion unless he learns to avoid situations like this.

As somebody else said it’ll be interesting/fun to see if Ocon gets into a car/team comparable to MVs and then see what happens.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Ocon was squeezed off of the inside of the track.

At that time verstappen was ahead of Ocon. Look at the footage:


Does this look like a good move to unlap oneself?

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Punishment is not evidence,

No punishment follows after the parties that have the mandate to judge found one guilty.
Therefore Ocon is the guilty one.
I dont see why you doubt the decision of the FIA race director. I bet he knows a lot more on this than all of us together here.

If Ocon planned his overtake like he should have he wouldnt have been 10 carlengths behind when turning up on the straight and could have used DRS at the beginning of the straight completely overtaking him on the straight instead of now only able to put his car next to verstappen at the end of the straight.
It was a poorly planned/executed overtaking situation. He didnt have the patience to wait another lap to place his car correctly at the beginning of the straight to do a proper overtake. He fucked up and wanted to hold his ground on the next corner. He had no right to do that being 1 lap behind and he got punished by the officials for that poor move.
Thats what happened.

If Ocon didnt make a mistake, he wouldnt have recieved his punishment. Its that simple.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

At that time verstappen was ahead of Ocon. Look at the footage:


Does this look like a good move to unlap oneself?



No punishment follows after the parties that have the mandate to judge found one guilty.
Therefore Ocon is the guilty one.

Yea, it looks like Verstappen is on track and Ocon is off track? You said Ocon pushed him off track and it does not look that way. Perhaps this is a semantic argument...

It does not look like a good move for Ocon to unlap himself. However, it also does not look like a good move for Verstappen to squeeze him off the track. But if you and M Power Belgium want to relieve Max of all fault in him losing his win, you are entitled.

And mandated punishment does not necessarily follow all guilty parties. Are judicial systems infallible?

[GuidoK]

I'm sure you're much more knowledgable than the FIA race director...

He said Ocon's move was "wholly unacceptable".

Verstappen kept his driving line as he is entitled as race leader compared to someone he has lapped.

Ocon wanted to stand his ground and decided not to back off (maybe because he got the go ahead from his team). And he got his punishment for that.

I honestly dont know why this is a debate. Its pretty arrogant to think you know things better than the FIA Race director. The race director can judge penalties given by the stewards, but he didnt. That says enough imho. And the race director is a key person in defining the sporting regulations what's and what's not acceptable on the track.

He said about Ocon's overtaking action: "Drivers unlapping themselves has happened many times in the past, but of course you expect it to be done safely. More to the point, it should be done cleanly and absolutely without fighting -- you shouldn't be fighting to get past."
And thats why Ocon was at fault.
Its like I said, he couldnt overtake verstappen on the straight because of his poor car placement at the beginning of the straigth, leaving a huge gap. He could only place his car next to verstappen at the end of the straigth. At that point he should have backed down and try it at another spot, but instead he decided not to and place his car on the inside of verstappen in the next corner where there was no space. In the pic I placed its very clear that verstappen was in front of Ocon.

And its not about infallibility of judicial systems. It's a race. And the stewards (and race director) get to determine who's wrong and who's right. Not you or me, or the drivers or team bosses for that matter.

[Bartledoo]

You keep arguing that Ocon was at fault and deserved a penalty, but I always agreed with that part...so I don't see why you say I disagreed with the stewards decision to punish Ocon. Maybe there is a misinterpretation here. The judicial system reference was just a side comment that probably confused the matter.

I don't understand what you want me to say though....Max did exactly what he should've done to win? He couldn't have done anything differently and won? His action was the best action possible in that scenario? He had no idea a car was racing him and putting his result at risk by fighting intensely?

Let me propose an exaggerated hypothetical to explain what I mean. If you are driving on the highway and see a car driving the wrong way on the exit you need to take, will you take the exit anyways and assume/hope they change course or stop going the wrong way, or just take the next exit and lose some time?

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Let me propose an exaggerated hypothetical to explain what I mean. If you are driving on the highway and see a car driving the wrong way on the exit you need to take, will you take the exit anyways and assume/hope they change course or stop going the wrong way, or just take the next exit and lose some time?

The werent driving on the highway so I dont see the point. Lets just keep it to the real situation at hand.

I don't understand what you want me to say though....Max did exactly what he should've done to win?

Its imho not a matter of what Max should have done, its a matter of what Ocon shouldn't have done. Isnt that clear?

If a leading driver should be careful every time a lesser driver comes in view that is a lap behind, other drivers are going to take advantage on that.
Thats why for example the blue flag system is in play, to seperate the race the leaders are driving from the guys way back in the field. Almost every race class handles these kind of situations the same.
I dont understand why its so difficult to understand that. The explanation from the race director was quite clear I think? I had no problems understanding that at least.

After the failed overtaking attempt of Ocon on the straight I think Verstappen expected Ocon to back down (like he should have) and try it at another spot. Instead Ocon held his ground forcing his car into the side of Verstappens car who drove the driving line in the next corner.
This is a scenario you expect when 2 drivers are batteling for the same finishspot but not when one driver is trailing a lap. I'm sure when this was for a finish place Verstappen would have handled it differently because you can expect someone who's fighting you for the same spot isnt going to back down. But you cant expect someone who's trailing a lap behind to go in all gung ho in order to unlap himself. The rules say thats not allowed.

Ocon's chances at toro rosso next year are probably nil right now if that is still playing. If he got ditched there, this was probably revenge.

[mk1-fan]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

He didnt block Ocon. He kept driving the ideal driving line.
Ocon forced him aside in the corner where the crash happened. Ocon wasnt even past him when they crashed. Even if this was a fight for a place this wouldnt be allowed imho.
Ocon got punished for his move so there is no question who made the illegal move.

Only in hindsight can one say that if he let Ocon pass and offered up some precious seconds from his lead that would be the right move but at that point in the race he still had to complete almost 30 rounds and the lead he had over Hamilton was only 10-15 sec or so. Loosing 1 or 2 sec then is a big deal. You dont know if there will be more of these situations.
Verstappen rightfully said about hamiltons remarks that thats easy coming from someone who's driving in 2nd place and gets the victory thrown in his lap.

He did, he moved to the centre of the track. He should have stayed on the racing line, which is on the right.