[kmarei]

Originally Posted by Kyle B

It pains me whenever I hear someone inside of a car company refer to its cars as 'products'. It makes me wonder if it looks at its cars with no more fervor than its golf bags.

BMW is being diluted at an incredibly rapid pace.

It looks like I might be in the market for a new car next year, and for the first time since 1997 I'm looking outside of BMW.

That's because now its a pissing contest between the 3 premium manufactures about who sells more

Doesn't matter if you're making good cars or not.
It doesn't matter that BMW is now imitating audi (a4/a5 split, using Sline (M badge on every model) as a marketing trick, a5 sport back is behind grand coupe etc )
You're just shifting boxes, hence the "product" usage

Sad but true
BMW is not catering to its old school fan base
It's now trying to cater to the Chinese market, and sell more cars (fwd? Wtf!)
And before you tell me it's a buisness, it's natural to try to sell more cars
Well how come for the past 30 years or so, no one came up with the bright idea to stick M badges on every model, and to stick with the rwd platform, and not make seventeen different models of the same line
4 series brand coupe : 5 door hatchback of a 2 door version of a 4 door sedan?

Please don't sell us the line that you're making exciting "products"
You're selling out very rule in the BMW rule book, one by one
No M SUV, no diesel M, no turbo charging M, no fwd etc

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by kmarei

That's because now its a pissing contest between the 3 premium manufactures about who sells more

Doesn't matter if you're making good cars or not.
It doesn't matter that BMW is now imitating audi (a4/a5 split, using Sline (M badge on every model) as a marketing trick, a5 sport back is behind grand coupe etc )
You're just shifting boxes, hence the "product" usage

Sad but true
BMW is not catering to its old school fan base
It's now trying to cater to the Chinese market, and sell more cars (fwd? Wtf!)
And before you tell me it's a buisness, it's natural to try to sell more cars
Well how come for the past 30 years or so, no one came up with the bright idea to stick M badges on every model, and to stick with the rwd platform, and not make seventeen different models of the same line
4 series brand coupe : 5 door hatchback of a 2 door version of a 4 door sedan?

Please don't sell us the line that you're making exciting "products"
You're selling out very rule in the BMW rule book, one by one
No M SUV, no diesel M, no turbo charging M, no fwd etc

I will reply in due course but this is no longer 2000.
The landscape for the entire automobile industry has progressed extensively.
Either manufacturers adapt? or disappear.

[SamS]

Originally Posted by SamS

Two new M-models likely means F82 M4 Cabrio and F85 X5M.

X6M LCI came out last year.

Sorry, meant to type F83 M4 Cabrio.

[Richbot]

In 2000 the top spec 328i stickered for a little under $45k optioned up. I had one for a while, it was a good but not great car if I'm totally honest. Servicable, and better than anything else in the segment yes, but not exactly memorable or collection worthy.
Today I can buy a 320i that outperforms it in every way for LESS money, with a ton more equipment, and a bunch of features that were unheard of in 2000. It even weighs a little less (i know, i weighed them)

Compare the core competency now to then and it's still there, just different, and you have to cut through about 50 layers of marketing bullcrap to find it, but it's there and with more options than we have ever had before on this side of the ocean.

Whiners don't guide decisions, people who show up and spend money do.

Mitsu stuck to its guns and is nearly defunct. The evo, M2, diesel stick rear drive Wagon, etc. ddoes not pay the bills when the peoplewho want them are fringe lunatics like all of us on this site

[Frenk]

340i is not planned ?

[Penguino]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

I will reply in due course but this is no longer 2000.
The landscape for the entire automobile industry has progressed extensively.
Either manufacturers adapt? or disappear.

Scott

You can adapt and survive while sticking to the roots that have kept
You alive for the past 100 years.

I don't mind BMW making a sedan, coupe, convertible, wagon, GT and GC of the same series since you need to expand your market share and compete. My problem comes when you take the M brand and you dilute it as part of your strategy. At this pace the ///M brand will not be the same it was 10 years ago. When I picked up my M3 at the Welt and visited the M Studio, talking about the M3 was like talking about Jordan at its prime. The respect for the car was astonishing. I fear in a few years it'll just be another car BMW makes. The gap between the M and the base models shrinks every year. I do not mind a 335 MSport like the E90 series had. My problem comes when you create an M3 using a standard 3-series N54/N55 engine with some upgrades and call it an M engine and then on top of that create vehicles like a M135, M235, etc and slap the M badge to its name. A naming like the 135is and 335is would have been more suitable. Perhaps BMW itself has lost respect for the most important letter in the world and now we see the results of that. Listen to your fan base before it's too late. If we express our opinion with so much emphasis is because we care.

You can expand and make as many BMW models are you think you might need, but when it comes to the M Brand please keep in mind a few of us still hold it as the holy grail and we would like it to stay that way.

[Soorena]

Originally Posted by yousefnjr

get out

Haha

Originally Posted by bavarian19

Any technical info on the B58?

I thought whatever comes after B points to it's displacement. Does B58 means it's going to be 5.8L? BMW has gone nuts, and it's clearly showing even in the reasonably sensed subject of engine naming.

[ynguldyn]

Originally Posted by Soorena

I thought whatever comes after B points to it's displacement.

Since when? Or did you think that SULEVing the N20 and making it the N26 actually tacks on an extra .6l of displacement?

[FunRevn]

Any idea if the 3series GT F34 will receive the new B58 engine or will stick with the N55 motor? Also any details on this new motor would be much appreciated.

Thanks

[Dennis911]

Originally Posted by carlitosz

Scott

You can adapt and survive while sticking to the roots that have kept
You alive for the past 100 years.

I don't mind BMW making a sedan, coupe, convertible, wagon, GT and GC of the same series since you need to expand your market share and compete. My problem comes when you take the M brand and you dilute it as part of your strategy. At this pace the ///M brand will not be the same it was 10 years ago. When I picked up my M3 at the Welt and visited the M Studio, talking about the M3 was like talking about Jordan at its prime. The respect for the car was astonishing. I fear in a few years it'll just be another car BMW makes. The gap between the M and the base models shrinks every year. I do not mind a 335 MSport like the E90 series had. My problem comes when you create an M3 using a standard 3-series N54/N55 engine with some upgrades and call it an M engine and then on top of that create vehicles like a M135, M235, etc and slap the M badge to its name. A naming like the 135is and 335is would have been more suitable. Perhaps BMW itself has lost respect for the most important letter in the world and now we see the results of that. Listen to your fan base before it's too late. If we express our opinion with so much emphasis is because we care.

You can expand and make as many BMW models are you think you might need, but when it comes to the M Brand please keep in mind a few of us still hold it as the holy grail and we would like it to stay that way.

The problem is: The "diluted M" stuff sells! And it sells good. From what I can see on Euro Forums and on the streets, the M135i is a massive success and gives the S3 a run for it's money (I am gonna exclude the AMG here since it is massively more expensive).
The fact is this: people (most of them anyways) who spend close to 50.000€ or even more for a car want to feel like they own something special. And since special means a lot of things to a lot of people, a lot of people just feel special when they can say they own an M135i or an S3 and not just any old BMW 1 series or Audi A3. People want to buy an experience that goes along with the product and the M name just suggests more of that experience. I can understand that sentiment, even if it is not at all my cup of tea.
Furthermore (and for now) it gives BMW or the M GmbH "light" the possibility to sell AWD cars under the M "umbrella" that are not SUVs/SAVs. (And it is another fact, that the marketplace is moving towards AWD cars. And, again just a feeling, the M135i x drive seems to sell GOOD)
I also do not like the fact that BMW sticks the M logo around like Audi does with it's S-Line badges, but again: people buy it and like it and if they don't, they have a nice option to throw out the M badges.
I am a diehard BMW fan (I even had a job interview at the promised land, the M GmbH; sadly did not make it) and I definitely agree with your statement that the M is being diluted to a certain extent, but, to say it plainly: you have to milk the cow! (without overdoing it, of course. But I believe that, for now, BMW is doing a good job at not overdoing it)

[vladberca]

These are some bright news for BMW's near future

[Judah]

F17 XL5 or X7 ?
I would luv to see a X7M but if BMW waits to long my kids will be driving and there will be no need for one in my household.

[Technic]

You just explained why dilution will kill the "real" ///M cars.

Originally Posted by Dennis911

The problem is: The "diluted M" stuff sells! And it sells good. From what I can see on Euro Forums and on the streets, the M135i is a massive success and gives the S3 a run for it's money (I am gonna exclude the AMG here since it is massively more expensive).
The fact is this: people (most of them anyways) who spend close to 50.000€ or even more for a car want to feel like they own something special. And since special means a lot of things to a lot of people, a lot of people just feel special when they can say they own an M135i or an S3 and not just any old BMW 1 series or Audi A3. People want to buy an experience that goes along with the product and the M name just suggests more of that experience. I can understand that sentiment, even if it is not at all my cup of tea.
Furthermore (and for now) it gives BMW or the M GmbH "light" the possibility to sell AWD cars under the M "umbrella" that are not SUVs/SAVs. (And it is another fact, that the marketplace is moving towards AWD cars. And, again just a feeling, the M135i x drive seems to sell GOOD)
I also do not like the fact that BMW sticks the M logo around like Audi does with it's S-Line badges, but again: people buy it and like it and if they don't, they have a nice option to throw out the M badges.
I am a diehard BMW fan (I even had a job interview at the promised land, the M GmbH; sadly did not make it) and I definitely agree with your statement that the M is being diluted to a certain extent, but, to say it plainly: you have to milk the cow! (without overdoing it, of course. But I believe that, for now, BMW is doing a good job at not overdoing it)

[Dennis911]

Originally Posted by Technic

You just explained why dilution will kill the "real" ///M cars.

Dilution or extinction, what would you rather have?

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Blubaron79

Need to know what B58 engine is!!

Exactly. More info please.

And is NO M2 confirmed???

Cheers
Robin

[PartsGuy13]

Originally Posted by w3rkn

Broken record
Scott, You keep seeking new customers, but your not pleasing the customers you've had for 25+ years. Whom have been leaving the brand because you won't listen.


Frustrating, that YOU offer a BMW hatch back, & wagons elsewhere, but no such thing exists in united states. So, the BMW portfolio is not complete here and when you sit on that side of the ocean telling us what we need, it becomes a problematic lie. I see the BMW portfolio cluttered and too spread out, not delivering anything whole, just bits & pieces of options that are best fit, instead of exact fit. There use to be a time, that no matter what BMW it was, I loved it/them. I would've taken any of the cars BMW made 20 years ago. Today that is much different, I wouldn't want to own hardly any of the cars BMW makes today save a few notable ones. So muddled.

IMO; Utter lack of focus on the customer. More focus was being paid to non-customers, than customers and it shows.



Lastly, I really hope the M2 is a work of art, otherwise I moving to a brand that has value to me. Problem is, there is no M2, no picture of an M2 and only the dangling carrot of an M2 in three years time. THREE YEARS!

I am all for more US models of wagons. We already have the F31 328xi, and in the past have had the E91, E61, E46, E39 and E34. But if you haven't noticed the US is not the ideal market for a wagon, for any car. With the exception of maybe WRX's what other car sells the same sedans as it does wagon/hatch. BMW knows this, and they know the EU market is much friendlier to wagons. It's not like they just throw darts at a board to pick which models get sent to the states, there is extensive market research and government rules and regulations to follow.

And 3 years seems much for the thought of a M2, but just look at the F80 M3. The F30 has been out since MY2012 and the F80 is going to be a MY2015. 3 years for that, why is it okay for that and it is outlandish for that to be the timeline for the M2?

[cc3]

Originally Posted by kmarei

That's because now its a pissing contest between the 3 premium manufactures about who sells more

Doesn't matter if you're making good cars or not.
It doesn't matter that BMW is now imitating audi (a4/a5 split, using Sline (M badge on every model) as a marketing trick, a5 sport back is behind grand coupe etc )
You're just shifting boxes, hence the "product" usage

Sad but true
BMW is not catering to its old school fan base
It's now trying to cater to the Chinese market, and sell more cars (fwd? Wtf!)
And before you tell me it's a buisness, it's natural to try to sell more cars
Well how come for the past 30 years or so, no one came up with the bright idea to stick M badges on every model, and to stick with the rwd platform, and not make seventeen different models of the same line
4 series brand coupe : 5 door hatchback of a 2 door version of a 4 door sedan?

Please don't sell us the line that you're making exciting "products"
You're selling out very rule in the BMW rule book, one by one
No M SUV, no diesel M, no turbo charging M, no fwd etc

+1. I really don't like what BMW is doing. Its moving towards making just above average cars for the mass market. Repositioning itself from leading Premium Performance Brand. Hopes the consumer will fall for it by paying premium prices for a family car.

Recent reviews of new products are only just above average and show it's starting to overstretch itself. Reading a recent review on reliability and Dealer back up and only average performance.

Massive discounts being given in the UK to shift volume which trashes second hand values. Even now applies to M models where you can get 15% off list. Road to ruin. Hooked on volume like a drug.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by aajami

Scott said that the F30 LCI will debut at the Frankfurt IAA in 2015, which means it'll hit the market in spring of 2016.

Market launch will be around the time of IAA in Fall 2015.


Best regards,
south

[LS1990]

With regards to the B58 engine, IIRC there was a post around 3 - 4 months ago when speculation of the M3/M4 engine was rife... this one guy said that the B58 engine would be modified based on the below (for use in the M3/4). I've tried to search for it but can't find it, anyway from what I recall:

- 3.0L displacement
- Twin turbo-charged
- New direct-injection technology (multiple smaller injectors for each cylinder)
- 320bhp and 332ft/lbs torque output.

Again I could be off my rocker and posting garbage but I'm sure this is what I read here.

[Jamesons Viggen]

Originally Posted by carlitosz

Scott

You can adapt and survive while sticking to the roots that have kept
You alive for the past 100 years.

I don't mind BMW making a sedan, coupe, convertible, wagon, GT and GC of the same series since you need to expand your market share and compete. My problem comes when you take the M brand and you dilute it as part of your strategy. At this pace the ///M brand will not be the same it was 10 years ago. When I picked up my M3 at the Welt and visited the M Studio, talking about the M3 was like talking about Jordan at its prime. The respect for the car was astonishing. I fear in a few years it'll just be another car BMW makes. The gap between the M and the base models shrinks every year. I do not mind a 335 MSport like the E90 series had. My problem comes when you create an M3 using a standard 3-series N54/N55 engine with some upgrades and call it an M engine and then on top of that create vehicles like a M135, M235, etc and slap the M badge to its name. A naming like the 135is and 335is would have been more suitable. Perhaps BMW itself has lost respect for the most important letter in the world and now we see the results of that. Listen to your fan base before it's too late. If we express our opinion with so much emphasis is because we care.

You can expand and make as many BMW models are you think you might need, but when it comes to the M Brand please keep in mind a few of us still hold it as the holy grail and we would like it to stay that way.

Sigh, heard that same junk about the E36 not being a real M car because it's not a real M engine. Yet here I am, loving the E36 for it's low maintenance cost and reliability and the S52 being one of the more loved engines from the past 20 years. 1M was another one, some whiners complain about the engine, but there it goes being one of the best M Products.

[termigni]

Originally Posted by Meeni

Now if the next X1 is FW, what makes it better than the CX5 or any random japanese thing with the "premium" package is not very clear.

what makes it better? can't answer you but what makes it sell over the japanese at a premium? the BMW badge.
my close friend once told me she wants a BMW. I asked her why? she said because she wants the status. To many people, BMW doesn't have to drive like an Ultimate Driving Machine anymore.

[Blubaron79]

Originally Posted by LS1990

With regards to the B58 engine, IIRC there was a post around 3 - 4 months ago when speculation of the M3/M4 engine was rife... this one guy said that the B58 engine would be modified based on the below (for use in the M3/4). I've tried to search for it but can't find it, anyway from what I recall:

- 3.0L displacement
- Twin turbo-charged
- New direct-injection technology (multiple smaller injectors for each cylinder)
- 320bhp and 332ft/lbs torque output.

Again I could be off my rocker and posting garbage but I'm sure this is what I read here.

Would be nice. Skipping the N55 for myself and going from a 2 turbo N54 to a TT N58.

(Not that the N55 is a bad motor)