[Deda]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

They're not 1:1 competitors. The S4/S5 fills in the niche between the 335i and the M3. They compete, but it's equally as fair to compare it to a 335i as it is to an M3. It's really just up to opinion and debate, but the bottom line is that there's no direct comparison.

M3>S4/S5>335i>3.2>328i>2.0t *imo*.

+1!

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by anmcguire

While I agree with you for the most part (except 335i>=S5, IMO), I'd add that the market they are both compact luxury sedans, similarly enough priced, thus making them direct competitors. Granted, there is some overlap in terms of price/power, but that doesn't mean that they don't compete with each other. Mercedes' C class, Audi's A4/S4 class, and BMW's 3 series all compete in the same market segment.

E.g, If I go to Edmunds and click new cars -> luxury -> sedan -> compact -> 35k - 45k, the top two entries are the Audi A4 and the BMW 3 series, followed by the Lexus IS 350, the Saab 9-3, and the Volvo S60. Note the C class is considered a midsize sedan by Edmunds.

I see what you're saying, but when you factor pricing like you said, you can see how it can just as easily compare to an M3/C63/IS-F/CTS-V. Its base price is probably going to be anywhere from 49k-51k (an S5 starts at 51k), whereas a base 335i starts at 40k (41k for the Xi), and a base e90 M3 starts at 54k. If anything, it's closer in base price to an M3, but of course we have to factor in options.

A well-equipped 335i will hit around the 49-51k mark. Using the S5 as a guideline, it'll end up around 59-60k (that's without selecting the pricey auto box or other frivolous options like active cruise control). An M3 will end up around 61-63k without the cold weather package, DCT, and 19" wheels.

To put the numbers side-by-side:
Base:
335i/Xi: 40/41
S4(S5): 49-51 (est.)
M3: 54
Optioned:
335i/Xi: 49-51
S4(S5): 58-60 (est.)
M3: 61-63

[cstavaru]

I think 335i will be every bit as good as S4 and more, because of several factors:

- The S4 is AWD-only thus losing more power at the drivetrain
- 335i is known to output quite a lot more than 300hp at the crank
- The max torque of S4 will be between 2500 and 4850RPM as opposed to the
335i where it is between 1300-5000RPM.
- The A4/S4 look is boring as hell (as opposed to A5/S5).

If you are factoring in the fact that the new A4/S4 chassis is not a real success based on magazine reviews, 335i will still be the winner.

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

I think 335i will be every bit as good as S4 and more, because of several factors:

- The S4 is AWD-only thus losing more power at the drivetrain
- 335i is known to output quite a lot more than 300hp at the crank
- The max torque of S4 will be between 2500 and 4850RPM as opposed to the
335i where it is between 1300-5000RPM.
- The A4/S4 look is boring as hell (as opposed to A5/S5).

If you are factoring in the fact that the new A4/S4 chassis is not a real success based on magazine reviews, 335i will still be the winner.

That may be, but Footie has noted that even the underpowered 3.2L A4 can handle well, matching (and arguably even besting) the 335i on certain courses. Also, Audi could very well be underrating this new V6 for all we know. Only time will tell.

I do agree though, it is a little boring looking. Maybe in S-guise it'll look better. In Europe, the A4 is already all over the place, and it's not bad looking, just not something that held my attention.

[mrad01]

Originally Posted by asian010

teh quattro got the history backing it up. and i mean.. most rally cars 4 wheel drive system is based off the quattro. for example i know for a fact the evos 4 wheel drive system is based on it.

So, did you know that BMW has made 4wd cars since the '80s?

1986 BMW 325ix 4wd...

Research. It helps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_E30

[radix]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

I see what you're saying, but when you factor pricing like you said, you can see how it can just as easily compare to an M3/C63/IS-F/CTS-V. Its base price is probably going to be anywhere from 49k-51k (an S5 starts at 51k), whereas a base 335i starts at 40k (41k for the Xi), and a base e90 M3 starts at 54k. If anything, it's closer in base price to an M3, but of course we have to factor in options.

A well-equipped 335i will hit around the 49-51k mark. Using the S5 as a guideline, it'll end up around 59-60k (that's without selecting the pricey auto box or other frivolous options like active cruise control). An M3 will end up around 61-63k without the cold weather package, DCT, and 19" wheels.

To put the numbers side-by-side:
Base:
335i/Xi: 40/41
S4(S5): 49-51 (est.)
M3: 54
Optioned:
335i/Xi: 49-51
S4(S5): 58-60 (est.)
M3: 61-63

To be honest, I don't think we're disagreeing on anything. My only point here is that Audi and BMW are both competing directly in the luxury compact sedan (and coupe) market segment. Price and other differences in offering are a byproduct of that competition. I will only add that when there is a substantial difference in price, you're usually drifting into a different market segment.

[cstavaru]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

Footie has noted that even the underpowered 3.2L A4 can handle well, matching (and arguably even besting) the 335i on certain courses.

I think you are kidding 335i even beats the 354hp V8 Audi S5 on track.

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

I think you are kidding 335i even beats the 354hp V8 Audi S5 on track.

Let's not bring up that vid please. It's been a controversial topic that I'd like to avoid.

Lap times between competition vary from track to track, obviously. Apparently, even a 3.2L V6 A4 kept up with a 335i on the Hockenheim Short track (which Footie notes is a handling-focused track. I trust his word). That goes to show that Audi is doing something right, whether it's the AWD system or someting else, I don't know.

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by anmcguire

To be honest, I don't think we're disagreeing on anything. My only point here is that Audi and BMW are both competing directly in the luxury compact sedan (and coupe) market segment. Price and other differences in offering are a byproduct of that competition. I will only add that when there is a substantial difference in price, you're usually drifting into a different market segment.

Gotcha.

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by asian010

teh quattro got the history backing it up. and i mean.. most rally cars 4 wheel drive system is based off the quattro. for example i know for a fact the evos 4 wheel drive system is based on it.

Which year EVO. Subaru uses mechanical diffs not electronic and I believe EVO's did as well. I'm not sure on the EVO X though.

Subaru definately did not copy AUDI as they have been making 4wd systems imported to the states from the late 70's. Their AWD systems are definately different.

[asian010]

Originally Posted by mrad01

So, did you know that BMW has made 4wd cars since the '80s?

1986 BMW 325ix 4wd...

Research. It helps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_E30

did u know the quattro awd system was introduced in the 80s as well? for example the first production audi quattro car was in fact the "audi quattro" in 1980

[asian010]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Which year EVO. Subaru uses mechanical diffs not electronic and I believe EVO's did as well. I'm not sure on the EVO X though.

Subaru definitely did not copy AUDI as they have been making 4wd systems imported to the states from the late 70's. Their AWD systems are definitely different.

i am not sure which year evo, but i remember watching a episode of top gear where they said the evos as well as many other rally cars awd system were based off the quattro.

[S4to335]

Originally Posted by fotios335i

I have to disagree. when the s4 came out all the comparisons were against the aging e36 m3. Again the v8 s4 was always compare with the m3. Not until the 335i raged into the scene is it suddenly the competitor to the top 3 series.

Ah..the S4 came out in 1992. The B5 platform S4 came out in 98 in Europe..and 99 in the US as a 2000 model year. The B5 S4 was more compared to the E46 M3 than the E36 M3...IMHO. Yes, the B5 S4 started with 250 bhp..but with just a chip it was at 300. The E36 M3 was at what? Sorry..I forget already..I am getting old.

[RacerXi]

Originally Posted by TwinTurboXI

How is Audis Quatro "far better" than Bmw's Xdrive. Where is your proof? I"d also like to know where your numbers are coming from for the performance and mpg statements.

I've seen/read comparison test for the xdrive vs quattro and the xdrive has been proven to be the better system. The one major difference between the two which makes me personally like the Quattro more, is that the system is rear wheel biased. - But with all things said I chose the 335xi!!!

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...83197544018466


This should help.

I'd hit an S4. Even an RS4/5. I love Audi's.

[Brian-313]

i would perfer the S5 , more power
much better exterior also

both Xi and Quatro is awsome

[hotrod2448]

Originally Posted by asian010

teh quattro got the history backing it up. and i mean.. most rally cars 4 wheel drive system is based off the quattro. for example i know for a fact the evos 4 wheel drive system is based on it.

The Evo's AWD system is absolutely not based on the Quattro system. Unless you consider anything AWD based on Quattro.

The SAYC and ACD combo on the Evo since the VII is probably the best performance oriented AWD production car system in the world. We didn't receive the ACD until the 2nd or 3rd year of VIII production for this country and didn't receive SAYC (now called SAWC because it incorporates more systems) until the X this year.

[asian010]

Originally Posted by hotrod2448

The Evo's AWD system is absolutely not based on the Quattro system. Unless you consider anything AWD based on Quattro.

The SAYC and ACD combo on the Evo since the VII is probably the best performance oriented AWD production car system in the world. We didn't receive the ACD until the 2nd or 3rd year of VIII production for this country and didn't receive SAYC (now called SAWC because it incorporates more systems) until the X this year.

ic my bad. i have posted after that post that i heard this from a episode of top gear. so apparently they were wrong. thanks for the info!

[GreenThree]

After driving the B7 S4, there is no doubt that it is a beast. The B8 will be sick indeed. But Audis have gotten too expensive. I am sure many get the 335 over the S4 just becase of the lopsided pricing

[keanu1]

i think is a little to late for audi!! By the time they introduce this bmw will have change the 3.0 tt maybe with a triturbo or an upgrade 3.0 tt

[footie]

Originally Posted by keanu1

i think is a little to late for audi!! By the time they introduce this bmw will have change the 3.0 tt maybe with a triturbo or an upgrade 3.0 tt

I heard that BMW are giving the 335i a slight boost in power to 325hp.

[hotrod2448]

Originally Posted by footie

I heard that BMW are giving the 335i a slight boost in power to 325hp.

I personally believe that "boost" in power will just be a correction of advertised HP to accurately reflect what the car has always had now that the E46 M3 is out of production.