[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

The problem with the 'record sales' defense is people are buying more and more vehicles across the board. Lexus has had record sales. So did Audi, Porsche, etc. Even Volvo and Hyundai have announced record sales. I have a friend who works in finance at Toyota and he said it's insane! It's not something that individual car manufacturers have done in particular but that people are buying more cars the world over in general.

Actually this logic doesn't hold up... because market share-wise BMW has overtaken its competitors to become the #1 selling luxury brand. It's not simply because "more people are buying more cars".

Originally Posted by Tacoma

And that tells you something! If so many people are seeing smoke, the odds are there's a fire.

Frankly, I've gotten used the the looks already and now they're no longer fugly but still not good looking cars IMO. Also, from some angles, it's still fugly.

People have been seeing smoke for over a decade. So no.. it doesn't tell me shit. Only thing it tells me is that people love to complain regardless of what comes out.

[Emily172013]

Never considered SUVs when talking about BMWs. Thought that way since the 80's.

[NervoS]

Originally Posted by Emily172013

Never considered SUVs when talking about BMWs. Thought that way since the 80's.

Well.... BMW didn't have any SUVs in 80's. If I am not mistaken their first SUV is E53 from beginning of 2000s.
I love performance + luxury SUVs, a combo of utility, sport and luxury. BMW is a significant player on this market arena.

Now, we can say, "never considered trucks or minivans when talking about BMWs" Let see in 10+ years if it holds.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by Hit_Apex

Right? It's a weird narrative about BMW 'losing their way' by a despondent minority (see record sales). What has been missing from the conversation is what these souls are buying instead, what products out there resonate with them the way BMW 'used' to. A lot of complaining but no one offers a solution other than to say BMW should reverse course which ain't happening.

That’s pretty much the point. There isn’t another option, so as BMW steadily abandons their history it leaves those who bought BMWs for what they once were in the lurch and they are not happy about it. The only other option that offers similar driving dynamics and the experience BMW once did is Porsche, but Porsche sells very specific sports cars, not cars with broad utility. I would love to own a Porsche, but I am a one car person and I need something I can use for a wide variety of purposes and I don’t want to make the kind of financial commitment that owning a Porsche requires. I am a fan of the Macan and after reading all of the utterly glowing reviews by the car rags and its owners I went and tried one. I expected to be pretty pleased with it even though I am mostly opposed to SUVs. The handling of it was good, but the V6 and the PDK didn’t compare to my inline six and ZF8, so the overall driving dynamics were very disappointing. And that conclusion was absolutely cemented after I got back in my car and drove home. That ended my desire for a Macan right then and there.

[slilley]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

The irony is that the X series models have been the last ones that look good. X5 and pre LCI X7 still look good. X3 (until this newest version) looked good. X1 still looks good. 8 still looks good and F90 5 looked good. 4 looks like trash, new 5 is ok at best, and 3 looks good if you don't get an M3. Z4 still looks nice too.

I just saw the new X3 for the first time...wow, somehow they made it fugly! The front and (especially) rear are weird. And then you look inside, and they've used capacitive touch for the vents controls, door locks and mirror controls. Disappointing. I just hope they don't follow this styling direction on next X5.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

That’s pretty much the point. There isn’t another option, so as BMW steadily abandons their history it leaves those who bought BMWs for what they once were in the lurch and they are not happy about it. The only other option that offers similar driving dynamics and the experience BMW once did is Porsche, but Porsche sells very specific sports cars, not cars with broad utility. I would love to own a Porsche, but I am a one car person and I need something I can use for a wide variety of purposes and I don’t want to make the kind of financial commitment that owning a Porsche requires. I am a fan of the Macan and after reading all of the utterly glowing reviews by the car rags and its owners I went and tried one. I expected to be pretty pleased with it even though I am mostly opposed to SUVs. The handling of it was good, but the V6 and the PDK didn’t compare to my inline six and ZF8, so the overall driving dynamics were very disappointing. And that conclusion was absolutely cemented after I got back in my car and drove home. That ended my desire for a Macan right then and there.

My experience was almost like yours. I really wanted an SU drives like a sports sedan. After a test drive I was very disappointed.

And I agree the reason BMW is selling so many cars is not because anything great BMW is doing, but no one else is doing anything great either. Just take Cadillac for example. Their magnetic ride is 2nd to none, but to get performance equal to a mid level BMW you have to go to a top level full V version. Then it's not price competitive, has a cheapo interior, and lacks the refinement of the German brands.

And I could go on with the failures of other co's if I wanted to type a novel, but they all have flaws that keep them out of consideration for real driving enthusiasts.

[erickonphoenix]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

My experience was almost like yours. I really wanted an SU drives like a sports sedan. After a test drive I was very disappointed.

And I agree the reason BMW is selling so many cars is not because anything great BMW is doing, but no one else is doing anything great either. Just take Cadillac for example. Their magnetic ride is 2nd to none, but to get performance equal to a mid level BMW you have to go to a top level full V version. Then it's not price competitive, has a cheapo interior, and lacks the refinement of the German brands.

And I could go on with the failures of other co's if I wanted to type a novel, but they all have flaws that keep them out of consideration for real driving enthusiasts.

Same here but it was the X3M. BMW can engineer bad handling out of an SUV but not all of it. I didn't hate it but for almost 50k I didn't love it either.

[reallymarkedup]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

My experience was almost like yours. I really wanted an SU drives like a sports sedan. After a test drive I was very disappointed.

This is the thing I just don't understand. I want a truck, with a high center of gravity and the ability to hold 17 people, to handle like a sports car, despite the geometry and weight being completely different, also it should be able to go off road, it never will but it needs to be able to, plus I need to help my friends move with it, I won't, but I need it to be able to. It should be comfortable, like sitting in a lazy boy, but I'm going to mount a four point harness in it because I may track it one day.

It's no wonder every single car is becoming homogenous with any other. Y'all don't know what you want so you want everything and they're obliging. Couple more years and the 5 series and the X will have fully merged into the same vehicle.

Cue the hordes of X owners coming to explain why this is perfectly reasonable.

[Hit_Apex]

A lot of hyperbole there but valid point. Look no further than the Mach-e, EV6, Iconic 5N. The trend driven by price increases as much as fickle shoppers, one car that does many things mediocrely. Yes, I drive an X5MC as a daily but also have an M4 for track/weekends, Jeep Wrangler for off road, etc. I am not the norm though and most have to compromise somehow - just not feasible to have multiple cars at todays prices.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

My experience was almost like yours. I really wanted an SU drives like a sports sedan. After a test drive I was very disappointed.

And I agree the reason BMW is selling so many cars is not because anything great BMW is doing, but no one else is doing anything great either. Just take Cadillac for example. Their magnetic ride is 2nd to none, but to get performance equal to a mid level BMW you have to go to a top level full V version. Then it's not price competitive, has a cheapo interior, and lacks the refinement of the German brands.

And I could go on with the failures of other co's if I wanted to type a novel, but they all have flaws that keep them out of consideration for real driving enthusiasts.

What did you drive?

Escalade V is sort of an anomaly, it's huge and Caddy basically has that market cornered. If you want an LT4 car Caddy has limited their numbers to the point that you're at their mercy for it. Same goes for the CT5V Blackwing.

That said, the Escalade is every bit as nice or nicer than the Germans, it's biggest drawback (other than price) is it's size. That size hurts its acceleration and handling vs the X5M or a Durango hellcat or whatever.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by reallymarkedup

This is the thing I just don't understand. I want a truck, with a high center of gravity and the ability to hold 17 people, to handle like a sports car, despite the geometry and weight being completely different, also it should be able to go off road, it never will but it needs to be able to, plus I need to help my friends move with it, I won't, but I need it to be able to. It should be comfortable, like sitting in a lazy boy, but I'm going to mount a four point harness in it because I may track it one day.

It's no wonder every single car is becoming homogenous with any other. Y'all don't know what you want so you want everything and they're obliging. Couple more years and the 5 series and the X will have fully merged into the same vehicle.

Cue the hordes of X owners coming to explain why this is perfectly reasonable.

No horde, just me

The reason I like sport SUVs is simple. I got young kids and a trailer and a boat. That means my drive to and from work often involves a stop at daycare, so sticking with Corvettes and 2 seat sports cars is a pain, that costs me time having to go home to change cars.

I also don't want to be bored out of my mind in something slow and lumbering. I'd get bored, frustrated, and hate it. So I buy sport SUVs, that are as fast as a real sports car, handle well for their size, and do the family stuff too.

People say "but why not an M3, M5, 911, etc?". Because I'm 6'2 and hit my head or car roofs trying to fight the kids into the back of a sedan, or worse a coupe. Maybe when the kids are a little older and they just have to climb in and buckle themselves I'd go this route, but for now, my head thanks me for having a roofline that doesn't involve bending down to get them in.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Hit_Apex

Right? It's a weird narrative about BMW 'losing their way' by a despondent minority (see record sales). What has been missing from the conversation is what these souls are buying instead, what products out there resonate with them the way BMW 'used' to. A lot of complaining but no one offers a solution other than to say BMW should reverse course which ain't happening.

I've suggested several times BMW should issue a Retromod of the E30. N/A inline 6 (a new next-gen N52), 6-speed manual gearbox, rear drive, big greenhouse, shark nose grille, glass round headlamps, forward opening hood. I'd buy one without question. Many auto manufacturers have been quite successful with this formula.

And I put my money where my mouth is, I bought a '22 Bronco 2-door with the manual 7-speed. I was under 4 years old when the OG Bronco came out and a teenager when it ended production in 1977. I remember it well, and I was a Ford kid (still am) to boot. That's what resonates with a lot of us younger Boomers, a modern classic from our youth.

I'll even branch out to suggest a Retromod of the E28 too.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by SW111

Just saw an article about the 25th anniversary celebration of the X5. It is generally acknowledged that BMW's best years were the late 90's and early 2000's. It is also generally acknowledged that BMW is going downhill, especially in the styling department. Is it a coincidence that the introduction of SUV's coincides with the downward trend? I remember when BMW did not make SUV's and were considered drivers cars. Excellent steering and road feel, and overall road manners. They looked good too. It seems to me they are just ugly expensive luxury cars now. There are exceptions, and I consider my 2016 F22 M235 with a manual transmission as one of them, but it is almost 10 years old. I got it because it was the smallest lightest thing they made. I had been without a BMW for awhile and wanted something on the new side. At the local BMWCCA chapter cars and coffee everyone gravitates toward the older cars. The equivalent 2 series now is a boxy, ugly car. I honestly can’t think of anything in their current lineup that I would consider attractive. I just saw a new 7 series and one of its grills would cover both mine. I was invited to an X3 event at the local dealer. Same thing, ugly grills and blocky styling. The dash was hideous, a big screen stretched across the dash. It reminded me of a Tesla.

///M cars used to be somewhat exclusive and special. My E34 ///M5 was one of about 1500 in the U.S. It was hand assembled and had an engine derived from racing. Now they plaster the ///M badge all over, on every thing they make. It is the one thing I really dislike about my car. ///M badges everywhere.

Maybe BMW would have ended up here without the SUV's. There are other factors to be sure, Chinese and younger people’s tastes among them. But I think SUV's took the focus away from the cars. I know I am out of their target demographic now, but the Audi's and Mercedes I see around look decent.

Moderators move this to the "You know you're old when" thread if needed.

https://bimmerlife.com/2024/11/13/ce...tm_name=member

I think the past generations of the 4,5, and 8 were pretty good. As much as I dislike the breadvans, even many of the X models were decent to look at.

IMO, the styling has taken a real nosedive with the EV garbage they have been putting out since the XM was introduced onward.

Just prior to that many of the designs had some real energy and excitement to them, despite some unconventional choices.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by erickonphoenix

Same here but it was the X3M. BMW can engineer bad handling out of an SUV but not all of it. I didn't hate it but for almost 50k I didn't love it either.

I'd say any manufacturer can engineer out bad handling because all modern cars have computer-assisted driving. Being able to apply power and braking to individual wheels greatly enhances chassis dynamics without taking out unsprung weight, achieving ideal front/rear weight balance, and desiging in low center of gravity, and roll axis. Oversteer and understeer are tuneable just with adjustable variables in software code. That's why big SUVs handle well these days.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

No horse, just me

The reason I like sport SUVs is simple. I got young kids and a trailer and a boat. That means my drive to and from work often involves a stop at daycare, so sticking with Corvettes and 2 seat sports cars is a pain, that costs me time having to go home to change cars.

I also don't want to be bored out of my mind in something slow and lumbering. I'd get bored, frustrated, and hate it. So I buy sport SUVs, that are as fast as a real sports car, handle well for their size, and do the family stuff too.

People say "but why not an M3, M5, 911, etc?". Because I'm 6'2 and hit my head or car roofs trying to fight the kids into the back of a sedan, or worse a coupe. Maybe when the kids are a little older and they just have to climb in and buckle themselves I'd go this route, but for now, my head thanks me for having a roofline that doesn't involve bending down to get them in.

All good points. But a nice 4-door sports sedan with a manual transmission that's not dick-measuring M3 money would be nice. Just saying.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

All good points. But a nice 4-door sports sedan with a manual transmission that's not dick-measuring M3 money would be nice. Just saying.

That's why I've been looking at first gen CTSVs and E39 M5s lol.

[BMWbiker]

Originally Posted by NervoS

Well.... BMW didn't have any SUVs in 80's. If I am not mistaken their first SUV is E53 from beginning of 2000s.
I love performance + luxury SUVs, a combo of utility, sport and luxury. BMW is a significant player on this market arena.

Now, we can say, "never considered trucks or minivans when talking about BMWs" Let see in 10+ years if it holds.

Just for what it’s worth:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_2_Series_Active_Tourer

[BMWbiker]

Originally Posted by reallymarkedup

This is the thing I just don't understand. I want a truck, with a high center of gravity and the ability to hold 17 people, to handle like a sports car, despite the geometry and weight being completely different, also it should be able to go off road, it never will but it needs to be able to, plus I need to help my friends move with it, I won't, but I need it to be able to. It should be comfortable, like sitting in a lazy boy, but I'm going to mount a four point harness in it because I may track it one day.

It's no wonder every single car is becoming homogenous with any other. Y'all don't know what you want so you want everything and they're obliging. Couple more years and the 5 series and the X will have fully merged into the same vehicle.

Cue the hordes of X owners coming to explain why this is perfectly reasonable.

I understand your point. Despite having owned an X3, I’m not a huge fan of SUVs. In my opinion, most people who own an SUV would be better served with a minivan instead, at least if it’s a family vehicle.

Then again, my guess is that most private (as opposed to commercial) owners of pickup trucks don’t really need to own one. For every one I see loaded with bales of hay or firewood, I see hundreds not carrying any cargo. Many Corvette owners never take it on the track and mostly exceed the speed limit by a few percentage points on the highway, if that. Etc.

That said, if you’re going to own an SUV, it should do its job well. A Jeep Wrangler is loud, it doesn’t handle well, it gets lousy gas mileage, but it goes off-road well. I’ve driven a bunch of crossover SUVs this year (rentals), which have ranged from blah to super-blah. One of them literally yawed whenever I went over cracks in the pavement on the interstate when driving at the speed limit. Another one I literally had to floor it to maintain a 30 MPH speed up an admittedly-steep hill.

BMW SUVs are not hardcore off-road vehicles. They’re essentially wagons for people who won’t buy a traditional wagon because of memories of 1970s land yacht behemoths. But BMW SUVs do their onroad jobs well. (Yeah, “SAVs”. Whatever.)

[reallymarkedup]

Originally Posted by BMWbiker

Then again, my guess is that most private (as opposed to commercial) owners of pickup trucks don’t really need to own one. For every one I see loaded with bales of hay or firewood, I see hundreds not carrying any cargo. Many Corvette owners never take it on the track and mostly exceed the speed limit by a few percentage points on the highway, if that. Etc.

No conflict of interest there, I hold the same contempt for those pickups.

[SteVTEC]

I think if BMW lost their way at any point, it was the F-chassis cars, and succumbing too much to the demands of China/Asian market preferences of total isolation and pinky finger light steering. I still remember taking an F30 loaner with base suspension into a sweeping highway off-ramp turn, and almost having a code brown moment.

Everything that used to make a BMW a BMW became optional on the F-chassis cars. Base NA Inline-6 gone and replaced with a turbo-4. Perfectly weighted steering gone and replaced with this pinky light steering crap. Suspension perfectly balanced between sport and comfort gone, replaced with Buick grade suspension. Sure, you could still get all that stuff, by paying tons extra on options packages. They even screwed up the styling and made the base front fascia frumpy and sad looking, unless you paid $1-2k extra right up front for a "line package" which was nothing more than cosmetic tweaks that should have been how the car looked standard. I'm so glad all of those sad looking base "no-Line" F30's have cycled out of our area and into secondary markets. Most had halogen headlamps and running lights, when all of the Audis and MB of the time had LED running lights that looked a class above.

Never checked the M box, so can't comment on those. Had planned to trade my E93 for an F80 M3 back in the day, but life happened and I bought a Suburban instead.

My wife and I are both back to more modern BMWs now, and picked up CPO G05 X5 and G07 X7 cars this year, specifically pre-LCI cars before they went to all screens and no buttons, which we both hate. That's a whole nother discussion, but we like these G-chassis cars quite a bit.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'd say any manufacturer can engineer out bad handling because all modern cars have computer-assisted driving. Being able to apply power and braking to individual wheels greatly enhances chassis dynamics without taking out unsprung weight, achieving ideal front/rear weight balance, and desiging in low center of gravity, and roll axis. Oversteer and understeer are tuneable just with adjustable variables in software code. That's why big SUVs handle well these days.

They handle adequately up to about 7/10. And when there is no sedan or coupe to compare it to.

The test of any chassis is what it does at the limit.

In the case of the breadvans, physics cannot be overcome.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Neusser

They handle adequately up to about 7/10. And when there is no sedan or coupe to compare it to.

The test of any chassis is what it does at the limit.

In the case of the breadvans, physics cannot be overcome.

Agreed, but I'd bet that's the case for most all non-M BMWs these days, either sedan, coupe, or SUV (doesn't BMW call them "SAV")?