[Templar]

Originally Posted by NEFARIOUS

So if God-forbid, in a bit of an exaggerated example... You're in an taller apartment complex on the 6th floor, with one of those centrally-linked alarms where one incident rings the entire complex and you hear the fire alarm... Are you saying it's more acceptable to let panic get to you, throw a chair out the window and jump out the window to your death One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest style, than to say "wait, I don't see smoke, I'll just take the stairs"... Then find out that someone in the accidentally burnt a piece of toast.

It may be a drastically different scenario than cop vs. assailant, but you're saying it's OK for a cop to shoot an unarmed suspect when he was getting his ID like the cop was asking for but just moved a bit too quickly, is that right?

No, I'm not saying it's OK for a cop to shoot someone going for their ID card. In fact, looking back through my posts, I don't see where I said that at all.

What I will say is that when you have a non-compliant suspect who is acting erratically, your sense of vigilance is automatically extremely hightened. But I wouldn't expect someone who has never been in a tense situation like that to know how emotions and pure instinct play a role in how your actions would be in said situation...

Oh, and sitting at the range shooting at paper won't train you for that... I really don't care what your certifications are. You're not talking from experience (as a cop, or military, or whatever), and your picture of your credentials mean nothing (and they also mean nothing to all the cops that are wondering if they are going to make it home alive tonight).

[MrPrena]

Originally Posted by NEFARIOUS

I wasn't referring to the exact case in the video, I was just shooting out other options.

I wish I could make it to Top Shot... But then again I've shot 492/500 my very first time (wish I still have that target and BSIS card), have scored perfect 500 before, and never shot below 470 (and even that score was because it was my first try with a Casull), and have won several small-time contests before.

Yeah, living in LA/OC Counties makes shooting sports very limited. When I was living there, I did not even bother.
Standing up at indoor and shooting a paper target is like punching a bag standing up.
I give LA/OC residents for a huge credit to motivate themselves to go out and enjoy the sports.

[NEFARIOUS]

Originally Posted by Templar

No, I'm not saying it's OK for a cop to shoot someone going for their ID card. In fact, looking back through my posts, I don't see where I said that at all.

What I will say is that when you have a non-compliant suspect who is acting erratically, your sense of vigilance is automatically extremely hightened. But I wouldn't expect someone who has never been in a tense situation like that to know how emotions and pure instinct play a role in how your actions would be in said situation...

Oh, and sitting at the range shooting at paper won't train you for that... I really don't care what your certifications are. You're not talking from experience (as a cop, or military, or whatever), and your picture of your credentials mean nothing (and they also mean nothing to all the cops that are wondering if they are going to make it home alive tonight).

You may have not have said it, but what I'm hearing you continually justify and implicate, is that it's OK to have a knee-jerk reaction and shoot everything you see 100% of the time.

Again, I mentioned my own cred for consideration of a position as a rangemaster not to show off, but just about the only evidence I have left that I can show so that it doesn't look like that entire sentence of me backup up my claims is just so I don't look like a slack-jawed yokel talking out of my ass and sitting on the sidelines saying "welp, it's all very easy". Yet, most of your replies against me is just narrowly based on that.

The bigger picture? If I can show my paperwork and dig up the picture of me in front of a classroom teaching 23 guards-to-be with a 92FS in hand, that'd be a hell of a lot better cred and proof than some paperwork and a wad of cash, checks and paperwork, but I don't know what the hell happened to it; so I digress. I taught a grand total of 51 people matter-of-factly on how to properly use a gun and feature a hands-on demo with students with many common real-world tactical situations, especially since you'd be surprised how many people don't know the difference between a guard and a police officer and fuck with them the same way, so common sense and the Bureau of Safety and Investigative Services (BSIS) wants it to be taught. So with that, I have not only LEARNED tactical training, I TEACHED it. I may have not experienced any scenario in the flesh or had to put my training to the test, but then again, there are officers out there that can spend years on the force and not have to put their training to real-world use either.

I can't say for certain I'd handle it the same way if I came face-to-face with someone either; maybe I'd get an adrenaline rush and forget everything on the spot, or get bloodlust and flex my proverbial cop nuts and waste the motherfucker myself so that I can tell his homies who done it or an interesting campfire story back at the station, who knows? However, what I have been advocating and continue to advocate, is to think twice before you kill someone dead and explore less-lethal options if practical. I mean, to intertwine it with lingo, there is a well-defined system known as rules of engagement, with specific rules for escalation of force. In fact, military ROE cards are largely consistent with even the most basic private security training; Google a few of them.

Also note how the diagram below is shown as STEPS, not "Jump directly to lethal force whenever possible 100% of the time", otherwise there'd be a trampoline on the edge or some shit. Here's a breakdown of each step.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by NEFARIOUS

I meant that as in the cops that like to resort to knee-jerk reactions rather than exercising a bit of common sense, but for a general case for a cop to shoot an unarmed person is still pretty pansy in my book.

I may not have personal experience as in I've been in the field face-to-face with an assailant, but again, my main emphasis is seeking the reduction of fatalities and increasing accountability, not saying the cops shouldn't open fire at all. I mean, let's say we have a suspect, male, 5'7", scrawny enough for you to take him one-handed, makes you wonder how he got his wife's panties wet enough to marry him. No prior convictions or red flags, just got into an argument with his wife and she locked him out with just boxers on, even a 5 year old can tell he has no weapons, but of course he's a bit pissed off and kinda belligerent to begin with, but outraged the cops are not only called, but she lied to the cops and they are taking her side to the argument. He walks back to the house, but your rookie friend wants to flex his nuts and makes a smartass remark, and he starts charging at dumbass from 40 feet away. Given that there is plenty of time to consider other options, does this still give him the right to give his head some speed holes?

This guy was unarmed and intoxicated. Yet still was able to physically overcome this cops efforts to arrest him. The beginning is surveillance footage of the drunk guy getting into an altercation with a cab driver over the fare and shows him running through an ally before the cop caught up with him.

So would it have been less pansy of the cop to let this guy beat him into a coma or to death? What about just waiting until a punch dislodges an eye, or fractures his skull, maybe his ocular cavity?

Unarmed does not mean, not dangerous.







.

[f10inSD]

NEFARIOUS… PLEASE STOP POSTING OUTDATED AND INACCURATE INFORMATION…

The use of force diagram that you have posted is not only from 1997 it has NOT been used at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (the agency which you took the chart from) in a VERY long time. The reason it has not been used is due to the same flaw in logic you posted: That an officer/agent cannot “trampoline” to deadly force.

Before I explain, allow me to give a brief background… I have been in law enforcement for the last 8.5 years. I have had the privilege of training at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, GA. as both a basic and advanced student over the course of my career. I receive use of force training on a quarterly basis and have been involved in many use of force incidents while on duty.

NOW… the chart which you googled and presented as the policy for use of force encounters is no longer used. The current use of force graph is presented to an officer/agent as a circle with the officer/agent standing in the center. The officer/agent then has the ability to move to any area within the use of force to deal with a given encounter. These options range from “Officer Presence” to “Deadly Force”. An officer/agent DOES NOT NEED to move up a ladder to arrive at deadly force. The board in charge of use of force for the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center realized that the graph which you posted causes confusion and makes it seem like you most use each option before you can use deadly force – WRONG. If you think about it logically… if I arrive at a scene and someone has a gun pointed at me 10 yards away.. .should I try to hit them with a baton before I pull my gun? No.

Please do some research before you post an 18 year old chart which again IS NO LONGER USED by the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. You are doing a great disservice by posting old information that is flat out WRONG. In fact the very link you provided states "the officer may move from one part of the continuum to another in a matter of seconds". No where does it state that you must move from one level to the next.

[MrPrena]

Too many crazy people out there. If they will act like this to an armed police officer, what would they do to an average joe/jane on the street?

This is why I am going to carry this now......

[grimlock]

^what the hell is that?

[MrPrena]

Originally Posted by grimlock

^what the hell is that?

It's a bicycle messenger bag.

http://www.511tactical.com/select-carry-sling-pack.html

[Templar]

Originally Posted by NEFARIOUS

You may have not have said it, but what I'm hearing you continually justify and implicate, is that it's OK to have a knee-jerk reaction and shoot everything you see 100% of the time.

Again, I mentioned my own cred for consideration of a position as a rangemaster not to show off, but just about the only evidence I have left that I can show so that it doesn't look like that entire sentence of me backup up my claims is just so I don't look like a slack-jawed yokel talking out of my ass and sitting on the sidelines saying "welp, it's all very easy". Yet, most of your replies against me is just narrowly based on that.

The bigger picture? If I can show my paperwork and dig up the picture of me in front of a classroom teaching 23 guards-to-be with a 92FS in hand, that'd be a hell of a lot better cred and proof than some paperwork and a wad of cash, checks and paperwork, but I don't know what the hell happened to it; so I digress. I taught a grand total of 51 people matter-of-factly on how to properly use a gun and feature a hands-on demo with students with many common real-world tactical situations, especially since you'd be surprised how many people don't know the difference between a guard and a police officer and fuck with them the same way, so common sense and the Bureau of Safety and Investigative Services (BSIS) wants it to be taught. So with that, I have not only LEARNED tactical training, I TEACHED it. I may have not experienced any scenario in the flesh or had to put my training to the test, but then again, there are officers out there that can spend years on the force and not have to put their training to real-world use either.

I can't say for certain I'd handle it the same way if I came face-to-face with someone either; maybe I'd get an adrenaline rush and forget everything on the spot, or get bloodlust and flex my proverbial cop nuts and waste the motherfucker myself so that I can tell his homies who done it or an interesting campfire story back at the station, who knows? However, what I have been advocating and continue to advocate, is to think twice before you kill someone dead and explore less-lethal options if practical. I mean, to intertwine it with lingo, there is a well-defined system known as rules of engagement, with specific rules for escalation of force. In fact, military ROE cards are largely consistent with even the most basic private security training; Google a few of them.

Also note how the diagram below is shown as STEPS, not "Jump directly to lethal force whenever possible 100% of the time", otherwise there'd be a trampoline on the edge or some shit. Here's a breakdown of each step.

Thank you for also pointing out to me that you fail at reading comprehension. And you like to put words into people's mouths.

You ARE a slack-jawed yokel talking out of your ass. Shooting paper at a range is not the same as being put in a violent or even a potentially violent situation. Teaching people to shoot paper at a range in a "tactical manner" isn't the same either. You have ZERO experience, therefore have ZERO basis for calling cops "cowards" and "pansies."

I'm done talking to you about it, since you have no credibility and now you're just making bullshit up that I never even said (and I'm not implying either, dumbass).

[f10inSD]

Originally Posted by Templar

Thank you for also pointing out to me that you fail at reading comprehension. And you like to put words into people's mouths.

You ARE a slack-jawed yokel talking out of your ass. Shooting paper at a range is not the same as being put in a violent or even a potentially violent situation. Teaching people to shoot paper at a range in a "tactical manner" isn't the same either. You have ZERO experience, therefore have ZERO basis for calling cops "cowards" and "pansies."

I'm done talking to you about it, since you have no credibility and now you're just making bullshit up that I never even said (and I'm not implying either, dumbass).

Templar... please refer to my post above to futher your argument. Thanks!

[PINeely]

The "why didn't he just shoot him in a non-lethal body part" thing always boils my blood. Anyone who says this has never shot a handgun under duress, if at all. It can be hard to hit with a handgun at even moderate ranges of 15yards+ and if you're fighting for your life you can forget about hitting someone's arm while they try to charge at/kill you. This is why cops (and CCW students) are trained to always aim for center mass.

People also die all the time from being shot in the leg or arm and bleeding out. Just because in the movies an arm or leg shot is never fatal doesn't make it real.

[NEFARIOUS]

Originally Posted by f10inSD

NEFARIOUS… PLEASE STOP POSTING OUTDATED AND INACCURATE INFORMATION…

The use of force diagram that you have posted is not only from 1997 it has NOT been used at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (the agency which you took the chart from) in a VERY long time. The reason it has not been used is due to the same flaw in logic you posted: That an officer/agent cannot “trampoline” to deadly force.

Before I explain, allow me to give a brief background… I have been in law enforcement for the last 8.5 years. I have had the privilege of training at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, GA. as both a basic and advanced student over the course of my career. I receive use of force training on a quarterly basis and have been involved in many use of force incidents while on duty.

NOW… the chart which you googled and presented as the policy for use of force encounters is no longer used. The current use of force graph is presented to an officer/agent as a circle with the officer/agent standing in the center. The officer/agent then has the ability to move to any area within the use of force to deal with a given encounter. These options range from “Officer Presence” to “Deadly Force”. An officer/agent DOES NOT NEED to move up a ladder to arrive at deadly force. The board in charge of use of force for the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center realized that the graph which you posted causes confusion and makes it seem like you most use each option before you can use deadly force – WRONG. If you think about it logically… if I arrive at a scene and someone has a gun pointed at me 10 yards away.. .should I try to hit them with a baton before I pull my gun? No.

Please do some research before you post an 18 year old chart which again IS NO LONGER USED by the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. You are doing a great disservice by posting old information that is flat out WRONG. In fact the very link you provided states "the officer may move from one part of the continuum to another in a matter of seconds". No where does it state that you must move from one level to the next.

Well, when I was doing trainings, the facility still used a similar diagram, so I was basing it off of that... In the early 2000s, so OK, the place was a bit outdated and to be honest, even for that day and age, the whole place was practically a step back in time as we still used typewriters, paper-and-ink fingerprints for DOJ (from what I heard: Up until 2 months after live scan became mandatory), and only one computer in the whole office, and even that only used Win2K and AOL dial-up... Also, I admit, I saw the circle, but the steps were a bit more concise, but maybe confusing to others. However, it was concise enough and I DID stress back then and I still mentioned in a previous posts there are exceptions, despite not having the best training material back then or the best reference now. I have never said that the steps must be followed de facto. Again, if there's a raging lunatic making a Mexican standoff, my take is feel free to unload the entire mag on his ass and kill him 9 times before he hits the ground, but what I have been emphasizing from the first reply on is a bit more accountability and for LEOs to not to kill every single motherfucker they encounter, or hide behind their badge and say one thing when another happened... In fact, I'm actually glad that you know the protocol so well that you corrected me, which gives me hope that perhaps not all LEOs are sadistic bastards.

Either way, this climbing trend is getting to be despicable. What's next, making a stop on some leadfoot goes 85 in a 65, turn off the dash cam, walk over to someone who has his hands up sitting politely in the car and kill him, then tell the judge he was coming right at him, get acquitted and walk away a free man when the rest of the population is looking at 1st deg. murder? If nothing else is taken from what I said from beginning to end (or what I've been trying to emphasize all along), it's just to hope that there's more accountability and resolve before the US becomes some totalitarian dictatorship / dog-eat-dog world.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by MrPrena

It's a bicycle messenger bag.

http://www.511tactical.com/select-carry-sling-pack.html

I thought it was a V-shaped bullet proof vest - how is this going to save u.. put your weapons in there?

[MrPrena]

Originally Posted by grimlock

I thought it was a V-shaped bullet proof vest - how is this going to save u.. put your weapons in there?

No, I am going to carry bunch of rape whistle, and pray that I won't get killed or assaulted. *whistle*

Who am I kidding... I am not even going to carry that whistle.
"I am not a victim kind. It will NEVER happen to me"

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by NEFARIOUS

Well, when I was doing trainings, the facility still used a similar diagram, so I was basing it off of that... In the early 2000s, so OK, the place was a bit outdated and to be honest, even for that day and age, the whole place was practically a step back in time as we still used typewriters, paper-and-ink fingerprints for DOJ (from what I heard: Up until 2 months after live scan became mandatory), and only one computer in the whole office, and even that only used Win2K and AOL dial-up... Also, I admit, I saw the circle, but the steps were a bit more concise, but maybe confusing to others. However, it was concise enough and I DID stress back then and I still mentioned in a previous posts there are exceptions, despite not having the best training material back then or the best reference now. I have never said that the steps must be followed de facto. Again, if there's a raging lunatic making a Mexican standoff, my take is feel free to unload the entire mag on his ass and kill him 9 times before he hits the ground, but what I have been emphasizing from the first reply on is a bit more accountability and for LEOs to not to kill every single motherfucker they encounter, or hide behind their badge and say one thing when another happened... In fact, I'm actually glad that you know the protocol so well that you corrected me, which gives me hope that perhaps not all LEOs are sadistic bastards.

Either way, this climbing trend is getting to be despicable. What's next, making a stop on some leadfoot goes 85 in a 65, turn off the dash cam, walk over to someone who has his hands up sitting politely in the car and kill him, then tell the judge he was coming right at him, get acquitted and walk away a free man when the rest of the population is looking at 1st deg. murder? If nothing else is taken from what I said from beginning to end (or what I've been trying to emphasize all along), it's just to hope that there's more accountability and resolve before the US becomes some totalitarian dictatorship / dog-eat-dog world.

I'm starting to think you are tolling all of us. There is no way you can write what you write and expect anyone to take you seriously, let alone believe you are even marginally experienced on the subject.

[Billup]

LOL. Oh boy.

[NEFARIOUS]

Then welcome to your new America, a nation that is rapidly becoming a rampant police state where scenarios like the video below are completely OK, and I'm glad (but surprised) to learn that most people don't have a problem with being shot by a cop, meaning I should stay the hell away from those that don't mind so that I don't either wind up dead from a stray bullet, or inherit the almost suicidal mindset.

All I wanted is for cops to not think a wrongful flinch on unarmed people are grounds for going for their gun first, and get the same consequences as a civilian if their killings are unjustified, and the only reason I proved myself is to ensure I don't look like some 100% ignorant inexperienced armchair general who knows 0% about tactical defense... Fuck me, right?

[Templar]

Originally Posted by NEFARIOUS

Fuck me, right?

Yep.

[aksi]

When a cop says hands up, hands up. Do not put your hand around your waist where cop cannot see your hand. Is it that difficult to comprehend?

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by aksi

When a cop says hands up, hands up. Do not put your hand around your waist where cop cannot see your hand. Is it that difficult to comprehend?

For many, yes. Even for some tactical "instructors".

[AW335TT]

I don't even see how there is a argument here. You guys honestly believe there is ZERO corruption in law enforcement or the justice system?? If you believe that you are in lala land. If you agree that there is at least .01% corruption that means you have no room to argue. How can you argue against someone who does not like unjust shootings?? Blows my mind..

[SunnyD]

Originally Posted by AW335TT

How can you argue against someone who does not like unjust shootings?? Blows my mind..

Sure, I believe there are corrupt cops out there, but what pisses me off more are people who are too quick to judge and label certain situations as "unjust".