[Poiseuille]

Originally Posted by five_timer

I understand you guys love Lewis (I like him too, it's just too much already), but are you really going to whine about missing a 6th WDC? How about the 3 WDCs Alonso lost by 4 points or less (one by a point)? How about Massa missing out by a point? Eddie Irvine by 2 points. Kimi (with McLaren) by 2 points. IMO, Alonso's career was just tossed into the dumpster.

gee timer, why ever would you think we love Lewis?
.

[mk1-fan]

Originally Posted by five_timer

But you exclude Vettel from that list because why? Vettel took RB to 4 consecutive WCs, and left his teammate in the dust. Yet most HAM fans regard VET as shit. Why is that?

Not quite.

He is a very good driver. I would place him in the same category as Hamilton, Verstappen, and maybe Leclerc and Ocon.

He won mostly because he had an average team mate. Webber never really pushed him. At the time, the RB was as dominant as the Merc was the last few years.

What I don't like about him, is how he loses his cool on the track, and how he makes mistakes only a rookie is allowed to make.

[mk1-fan]

Originally Posted by jkoral

Frankly I'm still sore about 2016. Rosberg only won because he had one less retirement than Hamilton. HAM was comfortably leading in Malaysia before his engine failed 16 laps from the end.

Even taking into account the extra retirement, he won more races than Rosberg. If the F1 championship was scored using the previous 3 scoring models (1981-1990, 1991-2002 and 2003-2009), Hamilton would have won over Rosberg in all three models.

I've only just gotten over 2007 because sliding off the pit lane entrance into a gravel trap in China was driver error (even though McLaren left him out too long). He should have secured the Championship in that race!

Don't forget that Rosberg also drove him off the track a few times.

[mk1-fan]

Originally Posted by five_timer

I understand you guys love Lewis (I like him too, it's just too much already), but are you really going to whine about missing a 6th WDC? How about the 3 WDCs Alonso lost by 4 points or less (one by a point)? How about Massa missing out by a point? Eddie Irvine by 2 points. Kimi (with McLaren) by 2 points. IMO, Alonso's career was just tossed into the dumpster.

No I don't.

I don't particularly like him as a human being, I think he is far too flashy and blingy for my taste.

I do however, have the utmost respect for him as a racing driver.

[mk1-fan]

Originally Posted by Fender150

It will be Merc Vs ferrari next year. I predict
Red bull falling behind renault and battling haas

You sure about that?

Based on what Honda has achieved this year, and the fact that the RB chassis id by far the best, I reckon they might just be in with a chance.

Also, I reckon Sauber will be best of the rest.

[Japper69]

Originally Posted by mk1-fan

No I don't.

I don't particularly like him as a human being, I think he is far too flashy and blingy for my taste.

I do however, have the utmost respect for him as a racing driver.

Exactly my thoughts too.

No one is saying Vettel is a bad driver but anyone can see that he can only win in a truly dominant car from the front. He has NO wheel to wheel race craft skills and has never shown good performance in the wet.

Both the above traits have been shown by all the past world champions.

[3798j]

Originally Posted by Japper69

No one is saying Vettel is a bad driver but anyone can see that he can only win in a truly dominant car from the front. He has NO wheel to wheel race craft skills and has never shown good performance in the wet.

Both the above traits have been shown by all the past world champions.

Vettel's drive in the 2008 Italian GP should be revisited. It was both exciting and remarkable. His lead was built while the track was incredibly wet and that allowed him to bring his underpowered Toro Rosso (a far from dominate car) to a first place finish.

Remembering past world champions, there are certainly a few who wouldn't be considered particularly fast in the wet.

By the way, IMO the most remarkable thing about Hamilton... his skill and quickness haven't diminished. He's just as fast today as he was a decade ago.

[six_timer]

Originally Posted by Japper69

Exactly my thoughts too.

No one is saying Vettel is a bad driver but anyone can see that he can only win in a truly dominant car from the front. He has NO wheel to wheel race craft skills and has never shown good performance in the wet.

Both the above traits have been shown by all the past world champions.

See this is exactly what I'm talking about. He's a top driver in the wet. He's displayed years of wheel-to-wheel race craft skills. He scored points his 1st time out in a Sauber. He won a race with a Torro Rosso. And he has not only consistently outscored his teammate at Ferrari, he's outscored one of the Mercedes, while driving a clearly inferior car. And he doesn't make rookie mistakes: he's desperately trying to get ahead of a clearly faster car, and has to make some ballsy moves, or end up 3rd or lower each race.

I'm at a loss to understand why Hamilton - who has always had a top car - is considered to have proven himself better than Vettel, who (like Alonso) has proven his abilities with a range of machinery.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by Japper69

Exactly my thoughts too.

No one is saying Vettel is a bad driver but anyone can see that he can only win in a truly dominant car from the front. He has NO wheel to wheel race craft skills and has never shown good performance in the wet.

Both the above traits have been shown by all the past world champions.

I don't know what happened to his skill in the wet in his Ferrari years, but he actually used to be known for his great skill in the wet.

[Fender150]

Originally Posted by mk1-fan

You sure about that?

Based on what Honda has achieved this year, and the fact that the RB chassis id by far the best, I reckon they might just be in with a chance.

Also, I reckon Sauber will be best of the rest.

One can never be sure, but i dont know how
Similar the toro rosso chassis is to Rb,
But if its similar and they’re behind renault with their honda engine,
Rb might be there around or somewhat better,
I believe some of the things they presented to horner
Was that recent engine dyno. We shall see

[six_timer]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

I don't know what happened to his skill in the wet in his Ferrari years, but he actually used to be known for his great skill in the wet.

I'd agree that this is the case now. I suspect it's the setup of the car, as I've repeatedly heard Kimi loudly complaining over his radio about feeling like the car's on glass.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by five_timer

I'd agree that this is the case now. I suspect it's the setup of the car, as I've repeatedly heard Kimi loudly complaining over his radio about feeling like the car's on glass.

Yea, the Ferrari definitely seems to have some quirks, like the spinning with front tire face contact so many times. I've never seen this happen regularly until now, and it's isolated to him and his Ferrari. A lot of blame is going Vettel's way for those incidents, but wheel to wheel bumping is pretty regular (and arguably an effective racing strategy) in F1 and he has probably bumped wheels hundreds of times in his career without this phenomenon occurring.

[Poiseuille]

Originally Posted by mk1-fan

Don't forget that Rosberg also drove him off the track a few times.

.

[mk1-fan]

Originally Posted by Poiseuille

.

Brilliant

[Poiseuille]

.

[Woots]

Originally Posted by Fender150

One can never be sure, but i dont know how
Similar the toro rosso chassis is to Rb,
But if its similar and they’re behind renault with their honda engine,
Rb might be there around or somewhat better,
I believe some of the things they presented to horner
Was that recent engine dyno. We shall see

This year pretty much none of the car is shared between RBR and STR, next year will be quite a lot different where much of it will be shared

[Poiseuille]

.

[racerbruce]

2008 Monaco FI GP....
Our seats were in Casino Square; as the cars entered the square, they were coming straight at us and then turned right and started down the hill....we had a huge tv screen in front of our seats and could see the rest of the race on the tv.

The first 1/3 of the race was raining heavily, the next 1/3 a dry line was being established, and the last 1/3 was FLAT-OUT....ONLY ONE DRIVER ENTERED CASINO SQUARE AND SOUNDED FLAT AND DIDN'T LIFT, JUST MISSING THE ARMCO BY THE SMALLEST MARGIN....IT WAS LEWIS....who won the race.

[Poiseuille]

.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by five_timer

HAM and ALO tied at 109. Yes, RIC beat VET in his final year at RBR. VET was plagued with mechanical problems that RIC didn't have. That may not matter to you. And I agree that HAM's luck is at least partly due to his intelligence in scoping out the situation, and contributing to the team. But the fact is, he's never been in an inferior car, like Shumacher's Benneton, or Alonso's Ferrari, or Vettel's Ferrari. Those drivers all performed way beyond the capabilities of the hardware.

Dude. See my earlier post about the MP4-24. It was such a dog that it actually had fleas.

Lewi5 is the ONLY driver in the entire history of the FIA Formula One World Championship to win a race EVERY SEASON that he's raced in. Think about that for a second. Even in the season that he finished 5th, he won a race. Why haven't his teammates won races in each season? It's the car, right? WRONG.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by five_timer

HAM and ALO tied at 109. Yes, RIC beat VET in his final year at RBR. VET was plagued with mechanical problems that RIC didn't have. That may not matter to you. And I agree that HAM's luck is at least partly due to his intelligence in scoping out the situation, and contributing to the team. But the fact is, he's never been in an inferior car, like Shumacher's Benneton, or Alonso's Ferrari, or Vettel's Ferrari. Those drivers all performed way beyond the capabilities of the hardware.

There are no ties in Formula One. Learn the sport.

They had the same number of points but Lewi5 is 2nd in the championship on countback.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by five_timer

See this is exactly what I'm talking about. He's a top driver in the wet. He's displayed years of wheel-to-wheel race craft skills. He scored points his 1st time out in a Sauber. He won a race with a Torro Rosso. And he has not only consistently outscored his teammate at Ferrari, he's outscored one of the Mercedes, while driving a clearly inferior car. And he doesn't make rookie mistakes: he's desperately trying to get ahead of a clearly faster car, and has to make some ballsy moves, or end up 3rd or lower each race.

I'm at a loss to understand why Hamilton - who has always had a top car - is considered to have proven himself better than Vettel, who (like Alonso) has proven his abilities with a range of machinery.

You're one of about 13 people on the entire planet that thinks VET is equal to HAM. I've been watching Formula One since I was about 10 years old and I"m in my early 50's. I've met Michael Schumacher, Nico Rosberg, Niki Lauda, Ross Brawn, Bernie, Norbert Haug, David Coulthard, Bernd Maylander, Susie Wolff, and a host of others in F1.

There is NO ONE closely associated with the sport that would agree with anything you've posted relative to comparing VET to HAM. Wake up and release your bias.

HAM is the GOAT.