[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

I feel compelled to remind everyone that this pursuit occurred after the suspects had already been involved in a gunfight and taken a hostage. This isn't a situation where LE is pursuing someone who simply isn't pulling over.

I agree with all the comments here about how it's easy for us to sit back and poke holes in what happened as we were not there, in the middle of a highly dynamic and risky situation.

However, if we step back and assess for a moment...What we have is a couple dudes who attempted to rob a jewelry store. Their motive was robbery. They were met with unexpected force by the store owner which set into motion the subsequent gunfight at the store, the UPS truck jacking, and the hostage taking. We will never know if the UPS driver was intended to be a hostage or just happened to be in his truck at the wrong time. But regardless, let's ask ourselves what would have likely happened if there was literally zero police response. Not a cop in site anywhere. What happens? My bet is those two dudes drive off in the UPS truck, abandon it and the driver at some point, and disappear. At worst they kill the driver on the way. Maximum casualty of that outcome is 1. Now dont get me wrong, I'm not saying there should be no LOE response but in my mind this does indicate that a helicopter following them instead of a high speed pursuit and subsequent wild-west style shoot-out on a gridlocked highway with civilians used as shields might have been the better course.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ

I think it comes down to who started shooting first, which isn’t totally clear from the footage. If the UPS truck suspects did, what choice do the LEOs have other than to take cover wherever they can and return fire? I mean, it’s kind of absurd to say that they should have stood tall without cover to draw fire away from civilians even if it was remotely possible with that number of cars packed together in traffic.

I don’t find it absurd and a lot of old friends I’ve talked to about this that are still on the force don’t either. You have your own cars to use as well. I felt especially bad for the SUV that was trying to get out of there and there were multiple officers moving with it using it for cover.

It’s part of putting on the badge and going out on the streets is you accept a higher risk to protect civilians. What good does it do anyone if the hostage plus ten other civilians are dead?

Amazingly only one bystander (plus hostage) was killed (I don’t say that flippantly by the way) as well. One of the big things they will look at is the crossfire between officers. Early looks at the video it appears the officers were lucky they didn’t shoot one of their own as well.

[Salty Dog]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

I agree with all the comments here about how it's easy for us to sit back and poke holes in what happened as we were not there, in the middle of a highly dynamic and risky situation.

However, if we step back and assess for a moment...What we have is a couple dudes who attempted to rob a jewelry store. Their motive was robbery. They were met with unexpected force by the store owner which set into motion the subsequent gunfight at the store, the UPS truck jacking, and the hostage taking. We will never know if the UPS driver was intended to be a hostage or just happened to be in his truck at the wrong time. But regardless, let's ask ourselves what would have likely happened if there was literally zero police response. Not a cop in site anywhere. What happens? My bet is those two dudes drive off in the UPS truck, abandon it and the driver at some point, and disappear. At worst they kill the driver on the way. Maximum casualty of that outcome is 1. Now dont get me wrong, I'm not saying there should be no LOE response but in my mind this does indicate that a helicopter following them instead of a high speed pursuit and subsequent wild-west style shoot-out on a gridlocked highway with civilians used as shields might have been the better course.

There's a lot of speculation in your post. The police get information as it comes in, and it is often sketchy at best. So when the call for an armed robbery with shots fired is dispatched the response was as I'd expect it to be.....the vast majority of the time the outcome isn't this, so to suggest if the police weren't there it would have come out better is also to suggest that you'd be ok with that level of response to all kinds of calls and I suspect those outcomes wouldn't be so happy.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

PIT on a dual axle box truck with a typical patrol unit would've been more difficult. Stop Sticks pose the dangers that you speak of, and are most effective when you have some pathway control or have some idea about the direction perpetrators are heading.

I’ve been in a squad listening to a MN State Patrol pursuit. Them plus the help of many other agencies closed roads and funneled the suspect to a spot of their choosing to end it. Obviously luck plays a part of that working, but I wonder if that was tried here and just didn't work.

I’ve been a part of one small pursuit and it was pretty chaotic. Thankfully it was over in a few miles though.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by minn19

I’ve been in a squad listening to a MN State Patrol pursuit. Them plus the help of many other agencies closed roads and funneled the suspect to a spot of their choosing to end it. Obviously luck plays a part of that working, but I wonder if that was tried here and just didn't work.

I’ve been a part of one small pursuit and it was pretty chaotic. Thankfully it was over in a few miles though.

When it's possible to get allied agencies aligned in that way, it's most definitely preferred. Sometimes the logistics don't allow for that.

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by minn19

I felt especially bad for the SUV that was trying to get out of there and there were multiple officers moving with it using it for cover.

This was where my heart sank. if that was my wife in that SUV I'd be furious. Completely sick. Theres 3 LOEs on the driver's side of that brown SUV, all shooting. How about just 1 of them opens that door, pulls the driver out, and ushers them to safety? Then go back and use that SUV as a shield.

Watch the video at 2:36. There's a minimum of 30 LEO vehicles in front of that van and another dozen next to it or behind it. it's literally going nowhere. Get those civilians out of harms way. That should be priority #1. Then deal with the dudes inside who are surrounded by 100+ officers.

Again, I wasn't there so it's easy for me to make comments about a situation I wasnt in. The LEOs did their best and did what they were trained to do. So the training needs to change. My 7 year old niece has active shooter drills in her 1st grade class. We can train our LEOs for active shooter in high civilian situations as well.

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by Salty Dog

There's a lot of speculation in your post. The police get information as it comes in, and it is often sketchy at best. So when the call for an armed robbery with shots fired is dispatched the response was as I'd expect it to be.....the vast majority of the time the outcome isn't this, so to suggest if the police weren't there it would have come out better is also to suggest that you'd be ok with that level of response to all kinds of calls and I suspect those outcomes wouldn't be so happy.

Yeah, I totally get that. We are all speculating here but unlike myself you actually have the the career to back up what you are saying so I'll 100% defer to your expertise here. As I've been saying its easy to sit back and comment on how it could have been done better. And maybe you are right that none of those officers had any intel on what lead to this, motive, etc. Is there not a police chief or someone in a command center of sorts that DOES have all the info at his or her fingertips that can generally guide the response of the officers on the scene? Or is is the total free-for-all that it appeared to be?

[minn19]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

This was where my heart sank. if that was my wife in that SUV I'd be furious. Completely sick. Theres 3 LOEs on the driver's side of that brown SUV, all shooting. How about just 1 of them opens that door, pulls the driver out, and ushers them to safety? Then go back and use that SUV as a shield.

Watch the video at 2:36. There's a minimum of 30 LEO vehicles in front of that van and another dozen next to it or behind it. it's literally going nowhere. Get those civilians out of harms way. That should be priority #1. Then deal with the dudes inside who are surrounded by 100+ officers.

Again, I wasn't there so it's easy for me to make comments about a situation I wasnt in. The LEOs did their best and did what they were trained to do. So the training needs to change. My 7 year old niece has active shooter drills in her 1st grade class. We can train our LEOs for active shooter in high civilian situations as well.

Agreed or my nine year old strapped in her booster back where they are firing. It’s the first thing I thought of when I saw that.

[Salty Dog]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

This was where my heart sank. if that was my wife in that SUV I'd be furious. Completely sick. Theres 3 LOEs on the driver's side of that brown SUV, all shooting. How about just 1 of them opens that door, pulls the driver out, and ushers them to safety? Then go back and use that SUV as a shield.

Watch the video at 2:36. There's a minimum of 30 LEO vehicles in front of that van and another dozen next to it or behind it. it's literally going nowhere. Get those civilians out of harms way. That should be priority #1. Then deal with the dudes inside who are surrounded by 100+ officers.

Again, I wasn't there so it's easy for me to make comments about a situation I wasnt in. The LEOs did their best and did what they were trained to do. So the training needs to change. My 7 year old niece has active shooter drills in her 1st grade class. We can train our LEOs for active shooter in high civilian situations as well.

Your concern is valid, but what often happens in high risk situations is tunnel vision. Like I've said, it's easy to monday morning quarterback and this is where the changes in policy and procedure as well as training will get addresses.

Just for perspective, about 30 years ago I was responding to a bank robbery with shots fired, there was a short pursuit and the suspects bailed out of their car. We were setting up a perimeter to bring in the dog and start the search. There was a young copper who had a traffic point, he had an interception closed and was directing traffic away from the area. As I was going by I saw that he had his pistol in his hand and was using it to direct traffic.

People don't always act in a predictable fashion when under those types of stress, this is how training and policy gets changed.

And FTR, I stopped and had him holster his weapon.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Salty Dog

There's a lot of speculation in your post. The police get information as it comes in, and it is often sketchy at best. So when the call for an armed robbery with shots fired is dispatched the response was as I'd expect it to be.....the vast majority of the time the outcome isn't this, so to suggest if the police weren't there it would have come out better is also to suggest that you'd be ok with that level of response to all kinds of calls and I suspect those outcomes wouldn't be so happy.

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

Yeah, I totally get that. We are all speculating here but unlike myself you actually have the the career to back up what you are saying so I'll 100% defer to your expertise here. As I've been saying its easy to sit back and comment on how it could have been done better. And maybe you are right that none of those officers had any intel on what lead to this, motive, etc. Is there not a police chief or someone in a command center of sorts that DOES have all the info at his or her fingertips that can generally guide the response of the officers on the scene? Or is is the total free-for-all that it appeared to be?

Policing certainly isn’t an exact science and both of your thoughts have merit. Every situation is different and officers approach each situation differently. Sometimes they have a lot of information, but more often than not they have very little.

I remember we were setting up a felony stop on a high risk vehicle. The crime took place in our city, but the stop was in another city. When the other cities officers showed up they just got out and ran to the car yanking the two people out. It was against our cities policy to do this. Anyway, just another of a zillion examples of how things are done differently for a variety of reasons. It worked out in the end, but it could’ve ended very badly as well. You never really do know.

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by Salty Dog

Your concern is valid, but what often happens in high risk situations is tunnel vision. Like I've said, it's easy to monday morning quarterback and this is where the changes in policy and procedure as well as training will get addresses.

Just for perspective, about 30 years ago I was responding to a bank robbery with shots fired, there was a short pursuit and the suspects bailed out of their car. We were setting up a perimeter to bring in the dog and start the search. There was a young copper who had a traffic point, he had an interception closed and was directing traffic away from the area. As I was going by I saw that he had his pistol in his hand and was using it to direct traffic.

People don't always act in a predictable fashion when under those types of stress, this is how training and policy gets changed.

And FTR, I stopped and had him holster his weapon.

Agreed! I've heard that too about tunnel vision and if I'm not mistaken that's why a lot of agencies put policies in place about backing off on high speed pursuits, right? The LOE is prone to get so fixated on catching that suspect that they begin to make poor choices that put themselves and the public at risk. No different than the suspect who becomes so fixated on fleeing that they begin to do stupid sh*t to get away. it's why you see someone fleeing at 100 MPH crashing into people, causing all kinds of havoc, because they had a suspended license or some trivial thing where the rational person who is not in the moment can sit back and say that risk/reward analysis is way off.

At the end of the day we've got 100 humans on a freeway with all but 2 trying to do the right thing. Let's not all forget that.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

This was where my heart sank. if that was my wife in that SUV I'd be furious. Completely sick. Theres 3 LOEs on the driver's side of that brown SUV, all shooting. How about just 1 of them opens that door, pulls the driver out, and ushers them to safety? Then go back and use that SUV as a shield.

Watch the video at 2:36. There's a minimum of 30 LEO vehicles in front of that van and another dozen next to it or behind it. it's literally going nowhere. Get those civilians out of harms way. That should be priority #1. Then deal with the dudes inside who are surrounded by 100+ officers.

Again, I wasn't there so it's easy for me to make comments about a situation I wasnt in. The LEOs did their best and did what they were trained to do. So the training needs to change. My 7 year old niece has active shooter drills in her 1st grade class. We can train our LEOs for active shooter in high civilian situations as well.

You can see law enforcement moving people when it was safe to do so, but the entire incident zone was unsafe. People were safer IN the vehicles (...metal, protection from the engine block, etc.). They had better protection from the car than they would've had if they were mobilized during gunfire, and in a panicked state.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

Yeah, I totally get that. We are all speculating here but unlike myself you actually have the the career to back up what you are saying so I'll 100% defer to your expertise here. As I've been saying its easy to sit back and comment on how it could have been done better. And maybe you are right that none of those officers had any intel on what lead to this, motive, etc. Is there not a police chief or someone in a command center of sorts that DOES have all the info at his or her fingertips that can generally guide the response of the officers on the scene? Or is is the total free-for-all that it appeared to be?

...and NO, there's no command center know-it-all at the helm. Dispatch receives information from the public and dispatches it to units. The information available changes; new intel is gathered. It all happens very quickly.

[Salty Dog]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

Yeah, I totally get that. We are all speculating here but unlike myself you actually have the the career to back up what you are saying so I'll 100% defer to your expertise here. As I've been saying its easy to sit back and comment on how it could have been done better. And maybe you are right that none of those officers had any intel on what lead to this, motive, etc. Is there not a police chief or someone in a command center of sorts that DOES have all the info at his or her fingertips that can generally guide the response of the officers on the scene? Or is is the total free-for-all that it appeared to be?

It depends on the department, in Canada the radio room is staffed by civilians with police officers over seeing groups of dispatchers and sometimes civilian supervisors. But think about what that looks like, they are often the calm arms length folks but they are only listening and piecing together bits and pieces of information. They can't see what's going on, and what is going on unfolds in seconds often. If we could all predict what was going to happen then nothing bad would happen.

The shoot out on the highway was a nightmare from so many perspectives. I am reluctant to be too critical because I have the same information as you and everyone else here. I have some perspective because I've been in situations that unfold very quickly and tragically on occasion. Most coppers will look back and realize that almost every interaction can be done differently and better and that's how we get better, with experience.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

I agree with all the comments here about how it's easy for us to sit back and poke holes in what happened as we were not there, in the middle of a highly dynamic and risky situation.

However, if we step back and assess for a moment...What we have is a couple dudes who attempted to rob a jewelry store. Their motive was robbery. They were met with unexpected force by the store owner which set into motion the subsequent gunfight at the store, the UPS truck jacking, and the hostage taking. We will never know if the UPS driver was intended to be a hostage or just happened to be in his truck at the wrong time. But regardless, let's ask ourselves what would have likely happened if there was literally zero police response. Not a cop in site anywhere. What happens? My bet is those two dudes drive off in the UPS truck, abandon it and the driver at some point, and disappear. At worst they kill the driver on the way. Maximum casualty of that outcome is 1. Now dont get me wrong, I'm not saying there should be no LOE response but in my mind this does indicate that a helicopter following them instead of a high speed pursuit and subsequent wild-west style shoot-out on a gridlocked highway with civilians used as shields might have been the better course.

The could have easily thrown him out of the truck when they took it if they didn’t intend to harm him, but they kept him. We’ll never know how it would have played out if not pursued, but they could have killed the UPS driver and then switched vehicles and killed the person / people in the next vehicle(s). There is just no way to know and while I respect and agree with everyone’s view of how upset they’d be if their loved ones were in a car in the middle of a shootout, I’d be equally upset if a loved one of mine were kidnapped by people who have already demonstrated a willingness to use deadly force and the police chose to minimize pursuit, which lead to further deaths. The whole situation escalated very rapidly, and there was no way to escape criticism other than by luck.

[DETRoadster]

Awesome to have past / current LOEs here. I'm learning a lot. Things are not always as black and white as they appear.

Thank you guys for your past/current/ future service. You don't always get the props you deserve so please know you are very much appreciated.

Off to build a bathroom vanity in my wood shop. Have a great weekend everyone!

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

Awesome to have past / current LOEs here. I'm learning a lot. Things are not always as black and white as they appear.

Thank you guys for your past/current/ future service. You don't always get the props you deserve so please know you are very much appreciated.

Off to build a bathroom vanity in my wood shop. Have a great weekend everyone!

We all appreciate that.

I enjoy helping provide perspective to those who may not understand why things are done a certain way, however ugly or uncomfortable the actions may come across. That's part of the reason why I created the, "Ask a cop anything", thread in Off Topic.

[Salty Dog]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

We all appreciate that.

I enjoy helping provide perspective to those who may not understand why things are done a certain way, however ugly or uncomfortable the actions may come across. That's part of the reason why I created the, "Ask a cop anything", thread in Off Topic.

My sentiments exactly. I have found myself defending the actions of the police (and my actions) too many times. I appreciate the fact that the views you have expressed has been received openly which isn't always the case.

Have a good weekend all.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Salty Dog

My sentiments exactly. I have found myself defending the actions of the police (and my actions) too many times. I appreciate the fact that the views you have expressed has been received openly which isn't always the case.

Have a good weekend all.

That makes two of us. I created a similar thread on E46Fanatics. I'm glad that the thread was well received here.


Have a good weekend gents!

[TXSTYLE]

Originally Posted by Salty Dog

There's a lot of speculation in your post. The police get information as it comes in, and it is often sketchy at best. So when the call for an armed robbery with shots fired is dispatched the response was as I'd expect it to be.....the vast majority of the time the outcome isn't this, so to suggest if the police weren't there it would have come out better is also to suggest that you'd be ok with that level of response to all kinds of calls and I suspect those outcomes wouldn't be so happy.

EXACTLY

[Salty Dog]

Originally Posted by TXSTYLE

EXACTLY

I'll never say "I've seen it all", because you just can't. But I will say that not much surprises me anymore.

I learned a few things policing a large metropolitan city for 31 years and that is that no matter what you do you're getting criticized for it. When I got my first of many many many public complaints the Supt. told me that if people aren't complaining then you aren't doing your damn job.

[Darth One]

I think it's great that LEO agencies have internal review processes and public scrutiny to hold them accountable. I'm sure they will learn a lot from this situation.

I am disappointed, however, that so much of the negativity is directed at them and not at the pieces of human trash that are 100% responsible for the terror and the loss of life. Good riddance and I'm embarrassed that they are from my area of the world.