[Doctor///M]

Originally Posted by dmk08

I cant reply to this the way I want without possibly getting banned for grill comments.

Been there, done that too...

[BMthusiast]

Let's pump these numbers up, these are rookie numbers....

[MadBimmeRad]

For what it's worth, some of the Fake-Ms are bloody marvellous.

Two examples I'd mention would be the current G20 M340i and the F22 M235i/240i.

The latter is what led me to buying the M2CS. The former is what I considered for my DD after the M2CS arrives - but now I'm half-leaning toward daily driving the M2CS.

If the M340i is anything to go by, the M3 will be great - but, at least the M340i has a respectable grille which is a definate plus for me.

EDIT: Thank you Admin for the corrections

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I'm genuinely not following you at all, sorry. Either way, anecdotes don't mean much in the real world. Data typically does a better job of telling the story.

It seems to me that a significant number of folks hoping for BMW, and in particular, BMW M sales to tank in 2021 are in for disappointment. There is a huge contingent of buyers looking for tangible features such as a high performance German sedan with a manual transmission, and BMW has the only one now. AWD high performance vehicles are also in high demand, and BMW is building the portfolio there too.

Sure, you could be right that M high performance sales grow... or wrong and they don't...

BUT, we won't and can't know which because, to your point, we don't & won't have the data!

Which does make one wonder, if you ARE right, why hide the sales data??

"BUT THEY'RE NOT HIDING IT!" you might say; If so, that'd be wrong because BMW is objectively diluting 'M high performance' sales data with the ever-expanding-models and therefore much-more-likely-to-sell 'M performance' sales numbers, thus obfuscating ever getting a data-driven answer to your supposition on M High Performance models specifically.

So back to the question:
Why would BMW want to hide 'M high performance' sales numbers?

The sensible answer is because BMW is afraid your guess will turn out to be wrong.

[Ikester19]

Originally Posted by DanG

I have to agree here. I could care less that an M235i exists. But to count it as an M car is ridiculous. .

Nothing unusual about BMW counting Mperformance cars as M cars. If we look back in history to 1979, the car regarded as the first proper M car for the road was launched which was the BMW M535i, a high-performance variant of the 5 series with increased hp, Recaro seats, bigger brakes, and a LSD.

[No Boost]

Originally Posted by Mister_Oli

I hope leadership changes will make the brand go back in the right direction of making cars that are fantastic to drive like they used to.

They're making more money with these watered down, for-the-masses vehicles now than they ever have. There's no way they're reverting to what used to be. MB/Audi/BMW now have basically the same driving dynamics. Take a blind test drive of comparable models and see if you can tell the difference between the big 3.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

we don't & won't have the data!

Sure we will. I’m talking about the numbers BMW publishes, not the ones folks are advocating for because they don’t agree with BMW’s product partitioning.

Why would BMW want to hide 'M high performance' sales numbers?

The sensible answer is because BMW is afraid your guess will turn out to be wrong.

We’ll agree to disagree on how sensibility figures into thie discussion. I’m seeing a lot of emotion and pedanticism poured into what, on my personal scale, in the larger picture are mostly inconsequential minutae.

Why is BMW sharing some data and choosing to keep some private? You know the answer to that. It is the same reason every other corporate entity does so - they’ve determined it will help them realize a competitive advantage. We don’t know how many diesels BMW sold last year either, do we? No (but we can be pretty sure that number tanked). And, by the way, how many *63 AMG vehicles did Mercedes sell? We also have no idea how many four cylinder models BMW sold. Why not? Shouldn’t we be able to track that so we can hold their feet to the fire for selling out and slowly killing their iconic I6? We could continue down this path - this path of proverbially beating on the doors to corporate HQ and demanding arbitrary answers - right? But you’re smart enough to recognize that there’s little point in doing so.

That said, if you really want more numbers, sales and registration data for every make/model sold in America can be purchased. I’m sure it’s not cheap, but it could allow those who simply must know to sleep easier. I’ll just go with what we have and try not to overthink it. If it’s good enough for the regulators whose job it is to keep the 900 pound gorillas honest, that’ll do for me too.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Sure we will. I’m talking about the numbers BMW publishes, ... If it’s good enough for the regulators whose job it is to keep the 900 pound gorillas honest, that’ll do for me too.

To your point - which was more/less a restatement of mine - all MFRs *legally* obfuscate sales numbers for trade secrets reasons be it BMW, Benz, or Bugatti. Tesla started combining Model S & X numbers because they don't want people to see sales tanking for either model. BMW ain't no different.

As for regulators, uh what?

First, regulators aren't analysts or journalists - more what we discuss here, right? (this isn't a government accounting regulations forum, right??)

Second, and more importantly, the regulators (SEC) fined BMW $18 million in Sept for inflating *5 years* of sales numbers so BMW's published sales numbers are actually NOT good enough for regulators.

Besides that, sounds like we more/less agree: manufacturers usually hide their sales numbers legally - BMW goes farther by inflating numbers illegally - but they all do it to protect their business ....

... that doesn't change the point though: BMW won't be sharing BMW G8x sales numbers, and one of the reasons is because they'll likely suck; just like Tesla's Model S sales numbers.

[Vivek.]

Originally Posted by Takumi587

I haven’t been to a meet up in years but hopefully it’s not as bad as it is on the forums. I have an M340i and would enjoy conversing with other enthusiast of the similar car, previous generation or competitor in my area. I would imagine the individuals who have big ego’s or feel the need to belittle the new M badge cars won’t be at these meetings or would be alone with their car flexing.

The people I have met on this forum are great people though.

No one at a meet is gonna belittle an M340 as long as the owner doesn’t come in spewing "Look at my M340. Man I'm so happy I finally bought an M car. Feels great to really be part of the M family. Sometimes I just call it an M3 because you know, it starts with M3, and it's less things to say."

Anyways people are normally a lot more reasonable in person than online. And any reasonable M-perf car owner doesn't pretend it's an M car, in fact half of the ones I've met want a license plate along the lines of "NOT AN M" but they're all taken...local m240:

[Tacoma]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

It's not manipulation of the numbers. The numbers represent M vehicles sold. Most of us realize that there's more M vehicles for sale today therefore this news shouldn't come as a surprise. The reality is no matter what they say people would nitpick as it's the internet after all and nobody's ever happy about anything.

BMW isn't Ferrari. They are a volume automaker and regardless of what you think of say an M235i or M340i those vehicles carry a premium over the regular variants and that premium means more money for BMW when more people buy these cars. At a time where Porsche sells more SUV's than cars surely most of you can understand that even if you don't like it, this is sound decision making as catering solely to purists and enthusiasts is not a way to make profits.

Not clear how those who acknowledge there's premium value to the M brand can then bemoan those who have issue with dilution of that premium value?

As to the first point, when it was a non-M 340i with M Package one year, and then M340i the next year forward and lumped in as an M car, when both are essentially the same car, then it is manipulating numbers, IMO, specifically to increase M sales.

I suppose they're doing this because they want a bigger sales number for M cars to be able to be in the same ballpark as AMG that has also lumped in "untrue" AMG cars (like C43) to its numbers. I mean it wouldn't look good for BMW M GmbH Marketing to hear that they are being vastly outsold by AMG, and so the manipulating and lumping had to be done.

[Suds]

I just took a really deep breath and then thought about the G80/G82.
I don’t really give a shit!

I’m headed somewhere else.

[DanG]

Hmm. I never considered my old 2014 M235i an M2. I never even considered it an M car. But BMWCCA and BMW Corporate both consider it an M car.

They can count it that way but I will never believe their numbers. Maybe it is me but I consider M car to be quite different than M Performance cars and I have owned both.

Probably the most serious confusion was with my M Sport 318ti. It had M stickers all over it. No way did it compare to an M3. (I did trade it in for an E46 M3 )

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

To your point - which was more/less a restatement of mine -

I didn’t capture that at all from your post, but I’m sure we don’t need to get into a tangential debate about language or communication style.

As for regulators, uh what?

First, regulators aren't analysts or journalists - more what we discuss here, right? (this isn't a government accounting regulations forum, right??)

Again, not really on topic but, sure. I stand by what I say though - the numbers we get suffice to satisfy my needs and curiosities. Whether every last one of those are strictly required by law isn’t something I’m going to spend time ruminating over.

Second, and more importantly,[I] the regulators (SEC) fined BMW...

Yep, yep. Well aware of that. I posted in the thread that was started in this forum on that topic, and I’m sure you did too. The fine was something of a joke, but at any rate they were called out. So, we either have good data now, or they’re going to get nailed again. Stronger disincentive for repeat offenders? We shall see if it comes to that.

that doesn't change the point though: BMW won't be sharing BMW G8x sales numbers, and one of the reasons is because they'll likely suck;

That doesn’t strike me as a sound conclusion at all. We’ve got no numbers from BMW for any M model, and they certainly don’t all suck. And yes, that includes the F8x M3/M4. So this isn’t some new angle to try to hide data that they formerly freely handed out.

I hope all of you guys are shorting this because you seem so strongly convinced the company is headed for disaster. Or maybe you always get this serious about monopoly money? I don’t know, but I’m not holding my breath for folks to man up and admit they were wrong, if that’s not how it plays out. On the other hand, if sales in 2021 do tank, well then my analysis of what’s driving buyers in today’s premium market was wrong. And I’ll have no problem admitting as much if that’s what this year brings. Until then.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I hope all of you guys are shorting this because you seem so strongly convinced the company is headed for disaster.

I'm not convinced BMW is heading for disaster, just disaster-curious

...But I am convinced the G8x is a risky bet of a product because legacy repeat customers think it's ugly and BMW knows it; as evidenced by their timid roll-out, the revulsion by repeat M buyers obvious anywhere online including here where long-term M3/4 members/owners have been sub-forum-banned for expressing negative opinions (an unprecedented forum first), and the general online consensus. I've been into cars for 25 years and I've never seen this level of agreement on anything ever.

That said, BMW sells a lot more than M cars and in a lot of other markets - especially China ... The west is getting tapped out for growth, while China is of similar size & just opening up:



If China sales grow, then BMW will be fine ... and/or BMW may be able to find a bunch of new western customers to replace all of us legacy customers running for the hills.

[David70]

Originally Posted by nis270r

Just bunch of marketing and PR bs, at the end of the day bean counters speak in the meeting, bean counters decide what gets to manufacture, beat counters win during year end "bean counting" event, it becomes a sad reality. No M true enthusiasts "wanting" an Xdrive on their M3/M4. They did it on the M5, fine. Now they put words in our mouth too? Cmon

Sales and Marketing and Mgmt. in general makes changes like this and when the "not a true enthusiast" buys an Xdrive M3 the money spends the same. Top to bottom many of decisions are made on short to medium term profits and they believe this will accomplish their goals.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

I'm not convinced BMW is heading for disaster, just disaster-curious

...But I am convinced the G8x is a risky bet of a product because legacy repeat customers think it's ugly and BMW knows it; as evidenced by their timid roll-out, the revulsion by repeat M buyers obvious anywhere online including here where long-term M3/4 members/owners have been sub-forum-banned for expressing negative opinions (an unprecedented forum first),

Repeating this doesn't make it true. Pulling threads off topic over and over has always been against the rules, and it always will be. It's trolling. When your cat dies, that's sad, and naturally you'll receive sympathy. But at some point you have to move on because no one cares anymore, and you're making it impossible to talk about anything else. As you are keenly aware, there are ways to manage grief without spreading misery to others. Enough said on that.

and the general online consensus. I've been into cars for 25 years and I've never seen this level of agreement on anything ever.

It's been rehashed over and over, and we aren't going to derail on this. But we can bring this back around. It's a fact that passenger car sales are in decline, and BMW obviously knows this. So, you can stick the same formula and watch that happen, or try something else and maybe extend life a bit. Sometimes chaos results in order. Passion can drive people to do unexpected things. And most importantly, marketing is manipulation.

That said, BMW sells a lot more than M cars and in a lot of other markets - especially China ... The west is getting tapped out for growth, while China is of similar size & just opening up:

I'm not disagreeing with your general conclusion, but China had the health situation (which this thread is also not going to be dragged off topic into discussing) better managed than most of the rest of the world so this data isn't particularly well suited to making longer term conclusions. But, yes, we know the trends, and there are clearer opportunities for growth in some markets than others.

If China sales grow, then BMW will be fine ... and/or BMW may be able to find a bunch of new western customers to replace all of us legacy customers running for the hills.

Or maybe when all these dead cats finally get replaced, it turns out people stick with a blue and white tabby or calico after all.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Or maybe when all these dead cats finally get replaced, it turns out people stick with a blue and white tabby or calico after all.

This is the part I'm most curious about! It's why I want the detailed data...

If I had to bet, nope, western buyers aren't gonna stick with blue & white deformed-snout tabbys and BMW will see western sales declines across all models featuring the malformed snout. (and we'll be hearing it's covid's fault for the next decade.)

BUT I think it'll take at least a year to become clear in the data since lots of people are willing to adopt a deformed blue & white tabby once, but just won't have the emotional energy to do it a second time.

Though given BMW's penchant for inflating their sales numbers, we may never be able to tell - more likely we'll have to watch what they do vs listen to what they're saying.

[Law]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Perhaps it should be pointed out that the first ///M road car (apart from the M1) was the E12 M535i, then the E24 M635i CSi, then the E28 M535i before the E28 M5 in 1985...

The M Performance models are actually a return to the roots of BMW ///M road cars.

You have a point about the nomenclature, but it would be unfair to the legacies of the E12 M535i, the E28 M535i, and especially to the E24 M635CSi to draw direct comparisons to something like a modern X2 M35i, even if the nomenclature of the latter is inspired by the former.

We'll start with the heavy hitter, the M635CSi, which was through-and-through, a full-fledged M-car. Let's make sure we understand its history so that this car is not misunderstood as a touted-up 635CSi (it wasn't, it was the E28 M5's two-door sibling).
It was powered by the M88/S38 motorsport inline six that descends from the BMW M1 supercar (and ultimately from the 3.0CSL if you keep tracing back the lineage) and sent power to the rear wheels through a Getrag 5-speed and a limited slip differential.
In some markets, it was badged simply as an M6, which more accurately reflects what it really was IMO because it was the GT Coupe counterpart to the E28 M5.



Skip to 2:30 to see Formula One champion Nelson Piquet get behind the wheel and share his thoughts on the M635CSi/M6.

Now the E12 & E28 M535i get brought up a lot and obviously there are different opinions surrounding this. Given that the M535i first came out some 40 years ago (when the market was vastly different on nearly every level), there's many points that can be argued for and against the case that these are the predecessors to today's "quasi-M" products.
On the one hand, yes, they were not full M cars, did not have motorsport engines, and were 'only' slightly upgraded and performance-enhanced versions of their more plebeian sibling models.
But on the other hand, they were slightly more special and were produced not necessarily to fill market niches, but to test the waters and pave the foundation for the actual full M-Cars that would come later. For example, the E12 M535i had properly special & unique upholstery and equipment such as Recaro seats & BBS alloys and E28 M535i 's that were equipped with manual gearboxes were dogleg transmissions, not exactly a soccer mom's car!
Of course, one could also argue that a transaxle CUV platform that can hang with yesteryear's sports cars is indeed an incredible feat.

So take it for what it's worth but I just thought it was worth bringing to light some of the details surrounding the E12, E28, and E24 since oversimplification of their legacies would be a grave injustice to them (especially the M6).

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Law

You have a point about the nomenclature, but it would be unfair to the legacies of the E12 M535i, the E28 M535i, and especially to the E24 M635CSi to draw direct comparisons to something like a modern X2 M35i, even if the nomenclature of the latter is inspired by the former.

We'll start with the heavy hitter, the M635CSi, which was through-and-through, a full-fledged M-car. Let's make sure we understand its history so that this car is not misunderstood as a touted-up 635CSi (it wasn't, it was the E28 M5's two-door sibling).
It was powered by the M88/S38 motorsport inline six that descends from the BMW M1 supercar (and ultimately from the 3.0CSL if you keep tracing back the lineage) and sent power to the rear wheels through a Getrag 5-speed and a limited slip differential.
In some markets, it was badged simply as an M6, which more accurately reflects what it really was IMO because it was the GT Coupe counterpart to the E28 M5.



Skip to 2:30 to see Formula One champion Nelson Piquet get behind the wheel and share his thoughts on the M635CSi/M6.

Now the E12 & E28 M535i get brought up a lot and obviously there are different opinions surrounding this. Given that the M535i first came out some 40 years ago (when the market was vastly different on nearly every level), there's many points that can be argued for and against the case that these are the predecessors to today's "quasi-M" products.
On the one hand, yes, they were not full M cars, did not have motorsport engines, and were 'only' slightly upgraded and performance-enhanced versions of their more plebeian sibling models.
But on the other hand, they were slightly more special and were produced not necessarily to fill market niches, but to test the waters and pave the foundation for the actual full M-Cars that would come later. For example, the E12 M535i had properly special & unique upholstery and equipment such as Recaro seats & BBS alloys and E28 M535i 's that were equipped with manual gearboxes were dogleg transmissions, not exactly a soccer mom's car!
Of course, one could also argue that a transaxle CUV platform that can hang with yesteryear's sports cars is indeed an incredible feat.

So take it for what it's worth but I just thought it was worth bringing to light some of the details surrounding the E12, E28, and E24 since oversimplification of their legacies would be a grave injustice to them (especially the M6).

I agree that in the case of the M635CSi that it was a "proper" M car, but still badged as a M635 in Europe (M6 in the US).

My main intention was to point out that BMW M history actually started with Mxxx models, not MX models (apart from the M1) as it seems there's a lot of very short memories or lack of knowledge of the history some times...

And to be fair, I think we should compare apples with apples, which would be the M535i vs the M550i. To me the M550i represents the same basic qualities that the M535 did back in the day. Different times calls for different measures, but the concept is still basically the same.

When it comes to the SUV/SAV/CUV models. Back in the days BMW did not make those models in either BMW AG or BMW M versions. What BMW M did back in the day was to take models from their AG lineup and modify/improve. same they do today.

I am NOT a fan of the FWD based AG or M-Performance models and would have preferred BMW didn't manufacture either of them...

But making money on volume models helps create room and budgets for M2CS, M5CS, M3/4CS-CLS etc IMO.

BTW, every new M3 generation has been met with negativity after the E30. The E36 M3 was to bland looking after the E30. The E46 was too big and heavy. The E9x was way too heavy, had a V8 and had poor brakes. The F8x was deemed to become a disaster for BMW M because it didn't look as good as the E9x, had a leaf blower exhaust note and not a proper M engine as the E9x had (at the same time forgetting that the S50-S54 and other previous M engines all where based on production engines).

Today, all of these M3s (and M4) are considered worthy M cars by most

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

If I had to bet, nope, western buyers aren't gonna stick with blue & white deformed-snout tabbys and BMW will see western sales declines across all models featuring the malformed snout. (and we'll be hearing it's covid's fault for the next decade.)

Like I say, we’re not gaining by rehashing this here. The horse - along with the cat - is dead. But speaking of excuses...

BUT I think it'll take at least a year to become clear in the data since lots of people are willing to adopt a deformed blue & white tabby once, but just won't have the emotional energy to do it a second time.

Though given BMW's penchant for inflating their sales numbers, we may never be able to tell - more likely we'll have to watch what they do vs listen to what they're saying.

You want a year, the next guy wants two, and then three, etc. In the meantime, I’m sure, reminding us to keep doubting the numbers.

We'll definitely keep a watch on this, but it’s 2021 now, a leaf has been turned over, and shenanigans are out of style. So we're not going to let it become a complete farce.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Law

You have a point about the nomenclature, but it would be unfair to the legacies of the E12 M535i, the E28 M535i, and especially to the E24 M635CSi to draw direct comparisons to something like a modern X2 M35i, even if the nomenclature of the latter is inspired by the former.

We'll start with the heavy hitter, the M635CSi, which was through-and-through, a full-fledged M-car. Let's make sure we understand its history so that this car is not misunderstood as a touted-up 635CSi (it wasn't, it was the E28 M5's two-door sibling).
It was powered by the M88/S38 motorsport inline six that descends from the BMW M1 supercar (and ultimately from the 3.0CSL if you keep tracing back the lineage) and sent power to the rear wheels through a Getrag 5-speed and a limited slip differential.
In some markets, it was badged simply as an M6, which more accurately reflects what it really was IMO because it was the GT Coupe counterpart to the E28 M5.



Skip to 2:30 to see Formula One champion Nelson Piquet get behind the wheel and share his thoughts on the M635CSi/M6.

Now the E12 & E28 M535i get brought up a lot and obviously there are different opinions surrounding this. Given that the M535i first came out some 40 years ago (when the market was vastly different on nearly every level), there's many points that can be argued for and against the case that these are the predecessors to today's "quasi-M" products.
On the one hand, yes, they were not full M cars, did not have motorsport engines, and were 'only' slightly upgraded and performance-enhanced versions of their more plebeian sibling models.
But on the other hand, they were slightly more special and were produced not necessarily to fill market niches, but to test the waters and pave the foundation for the actual full M-Cars that would come later. For example, the E12 M535i had properly special & unique upholstery and equipment such as Recaro seats & BBS alloys and E28 M535i 's that were equipped with manual gearboxes were dogleg transmissions, not exactly a soccer mom's car!
Of course, one could also argue that a transaxle CUV platform that can hang with yesteryear's sports cars is indeed an incredible feat.

So take it for what it's worth but I just thought it was worth bringing to light some of the details surrounding the E12, E28, and E24 since oversimplification of their legacies would be a grave injustice to them (especially the M6).

Great post. One point I always make about the new "M-Performance" cars is that its simply all marketing. The M340i is nothing but a 340i that comes with the M-Sport package standard, and uses the M badge to compete with the C43 and S4 which also have used their brand's cache. That's not to say these aren't great cars, because they are (well... maybe not the X2 or 2GC which should stay far away from M badges) but cars like the M635i were actually modified greatly compared to their regular counterparts. Aside from a cooling package, the M340i features many of the same options and equipment as the 330i when fully equipped and drive very similarly, just with different powertrains, which has how it always was, before the M badge made its way on the back of the car. I've driven a 330i and M340i both fully optioned and other than the powertrain and steering (30i actually gets the newer and better rack) they do not feel different.

[Tallest]

That headline image car color, whichever that is, I really dig. My taste for some reason really has gone from silvers and blues into browns and burgundy/dark reds and its not like im 50! Just nice and classy, art deco car colors Im really into now. Nice to see BMW still offering something other than basic greys. May be in 20s we will see revival of these cool century old colors back on cars, ivory, yellows, burgundy, blues and greens.