[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by vt100

You will laugh but.... Toyota 4Runner And I'm dead serious about it

I won't. My '95 YJ Jeep Wrangler had great steering feel. Recirculating-ball rack on a solid axle with leafsprings. Old school.

Other's may laugh, but the best steering feel out of a BMW I've ever experienced is in the E21.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by ///d

I say "heavy" because that's how most people describe it. I want feedback. I want to feel the road in the steering wheel. I want to feel the steering tighten up. Maybe that's the correct term, tight steering. I want even the slightest input to affect the steering. I shouldn't have to give much correctional input to keep going straight.

My F15 is too light. You breath on the wheel too hard and it turns. This gives a floaty feel and that's one complaint a lot of people have. Yes, it's a heavy vehicle and it's not going to feel or handle like a sedan, but it still needs feedback and still needs to stay in place without intentional input. I guess I don't really know how to explain it.

My parents have been loyal X5 customers for years. They held onto their E70 M Sport because the F15 was so bad to drive, hoping that the G05 would improve...but it really didn't. The E70 started having issues, so they caved in and got a G05 M Sport a couple years ago. We all hate how the car drives. You describe it perfectly: fingertip-light steering, floaty ride, and extensive body roll with any sudden steering inputs. Sure it handles competently, you can hoon it in corners if you want to and I'm sure it would put up better lap times than any E70, but it's straight up disappointing to drive.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

My parents have been loyal X5 customers for years. They held onto their E70 M Sport because the F15 was so bad to drive, hoping that the G05 would improve...but it really didn't. The E70 started having issues, so they caved in and got a G05 M Sport a couple years ago. We all hate how the car drives. You describe it perfectly: fingertip-light steering, floaty ride, and extensive body roll with any sudden steering inputs. Sure it handles competently, you can hoon it in corners if you want to and I'm sure it would put up better lap times than any E70, but it's straight up disappointing to drive.

Stability control...

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by ///d

I say "heavy" because that's how most people describe it. I want feedback. I want to feel the road in the steering wheel. I want to feel the steering tighten up. Maybe that's the correct term, tight steering. I want even the slightest input to affect the steering. I shouldn't have to give much correctional input to keep going straight.

My F15 is too light. You breath on the wheel too hard and it turns. This gives a floaty feel and that's one complaint a lot of people have. Yes, it's a heavy vehicle and it's not going to feel or handle like a sedan, but it still needs feedback and still needs to stay in place without intentional input. I guess I don't really know how to explain it.

I sense some contradictions. You want "tight steering" then say "you breath too hard on the wheel and it turns". I'm reading that as over-steering. Am I correct? Are you really saying you want more resistance before initial steering movement?

Not understanding how your F15 really drives. Surely tightening up is more in the tuning of the suspension bushing. Appears too soft? Then your comments indicate the sensitivity is put back in the higher assistance level, so that small/light inputs give the movements. Easy to oversteer.

Why is the steering requiring corrections when driving straight? Where's the precision in the alignment?

[5.M0NSTER]

BMW need to study what Chevrolet has done in recent years with Camaro SS 1LE, CTS-V and now the Black Wing series. Great feedback from all those cars. Good weight, and no dead spot on center either.

[chassis]

Steering feel starts with suspension geometry. Caster trail and angle, scrub radius and kingpin inclination create the forces felt in the steering wheel, which the assist system then reduces and shapes. Tire-wheel combination is also part of the picture.

It's multivariate calculus seeking balance between safety/stability (by far the highest priority), comfort, tire wear and handling. Suspension geometry that doesn't give much for the assist system to work with is combined with carmakers' assist calibrations and at the result is the experience posters have shared on this thread.

It's possible to have different assist calibrations in different markets, similar to engine or transmission shift calibrations. It would be interesting, although difficult, to back-to-back compare equivalent models from different markets to experience the calibration differences.

[Davil]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

I keep going back and forth between BMW either just being incompetent at properly tuning an EPS rack, or them intentionally doing it to appeal to a broader audience that prefers a "luxury" feel.

I think it is completely intentional.

I went from an M2C to an M2CS and the difference in steering feel is immense. It demands a lot more concentration and gives a lot of information. I actually think that some people would find this annoying and probably prefer the M2C steering. So I'd say the tuning is aimed at the intended audience. I really like the CS steering but probably wouldn't want it in a daily commuter car. But I'm not a commuter and every drive in this car is an event. So I'm happy.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by Davil

I think it is completely intentional.

I went from an M2C to an M2CS and the difference in steering feel is immense. It demands a lot more concentration and gives a lot of information. I actually think that some people would find this annoying and probably prefer the M2C steering. So I'd say the tuning is aimed at the intended audience. I really like the CS steering but probably wouldn't want it in a daily commuter car. But I'm not a commuter and every drive in this car is an event. So I'm happy.

+1 on this. GTS and CS steering calibrations make a noticeable impact on F8X. I daily mine with GTS steering, I often think “why didn’t it come like this from factory”

[///d]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I sense some contradictions. You want "tight steering" then say "you breath too hard on the wheel and it turns". I'm reading that as over-steering. Am I correct? Are you really saying you want more resistance before initial steering movement?

Not understanding how your F15 really drives. Surely tightening up is more in the tuning of the suspension bushing. Appears too soft? Then your comments indicate the sensitivity is put back in the higher assistance level, so that small/light inputs give the movements. Easy to oversteer.

Why is the steering requiring corrections when driving straight? Where's the precision in the alignment?

When I say heavy and tight, I'm referring to how the steering wheel feels when you turn it. I don't mean heavy like under-steer or how it feels driving a 1980s Cadillac.

My E90 almost felt like it had no power assisted steering. It was heavy. It took effort to turn it. You weren't going to back it out the garage or navigate the driveway with your finger because it would hurt your finger (just an example, don't drive with just your finger). It also tracked extremely straight and needed very little corrective input. It was tight meaning the slightest movement in the steering wheel resulted in the car reacting. There was no dead zone in that steering.

The F15 has very light steering. Its over-assisted or like you stated, higher assistance level. It takes no effort at all to turn the steering wheel and because of this you don't feel the road as much. While it does react well to steering input, feeling so light makes it feel sloppy and floaty. My alignment is fine, my bushings are fine, it's just an over-assisted steering system to appeal to those looking for comfort over performance and feel. It is a bigger SUV so it's not going to handle or track like a sedan, but with a tighter or heavier, or "more resistance" steering it would help not feel so floaty.

And yes, its an X5, and even being an M Sport it's still not meant to be a performance or track oriented vehicle, but it's also not just the X5 that people complain about this new over-assisted steering feel. The only saving grace I have with mine is it has both Adaptive M and Dynamic Handling packages, so my X5 stays surprisingly flat and balanced with hard cornering.

But, with an M Sport you can run in Sport mode and feel the steering get heavier and tighten up, so there has to be something that can electronically change how the steering feels.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by Davil

I think it is completely intentional.

I went from an M2C to an M2CS and the difference in steering feel is immense. It demands a lot more concentration and gives a lot of information. I actually think that some people would find this annoying and probably prefer the M2C steering. So I'd say the tuning is aimed at the intended audience. I really like the CS steering but probably wouldn't want it in a daily commuter car. But I'm not a commuter and every drive in this car is an event. So I'm happy.

Yeah.... I just wish they reserved the lifeless steering for something like a 230i as opposed to an M2C

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by chassis

It's possible to have different assist calibrations in different markets, similar to engine or transmission shift calibrations. It would be interesting, although difficult, to back-to-back compare equivalent models from different markets to experience the calibration differences.

From experience when testing different F10/F11 setups when deciding on my preferred specification. You can't simply judge a model series on several examples, let alone just one.

In my particular case, it wasn't just wheel size and/or suspension options which changed the steering. Something like the SAT option (Sport Automatic Transmission) of the time, appeared to also change the steering software. Steering was far superior with SAT models.

I'm sure this still applies, even if the basic EPS rack is the same, software is calibrated to other specifications and options.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by ///d

The F15 has very light steering. Its over-assisted or like you stated, higher assistance level. It takes no effort at all to turn the steering wheel and because of this you don't feel the road as much. While it does react well to steering input, feeling so light makes it feel sloppy and floaty. My alignment is fine, my bushings are fine, it's just an over-assisted steering system to appeal to those looking for comfort over performance and feel. It is a bigger SUV so it's not going to handle or track like a sedan, but with a tighter or heavier, or "more resistance" steering it would help not feel so floaty.

...

But, with an M Sport you can run in Sport mode and feel the steering get heavier and tighten up, so there has to be something that can electronically change how the steering feels.

Aren't we really back to the design and user compromises? Reduced NVH being a major factor for most drivers. Plus the desire for lighter controls.

I do believe where some of us have issue, is wanting a more solid steering feel, which we can 'man handle', rather than be willing to adapt to more sensitive and lighter inputs.

I believe that anyone who adapts to a more sensitive steering 'awareness', like applying lighter movements, even a lighter grip of the wheel, will find there is much more precision and greater road feel coming back through the wheel, than they first think is there. Yes, it may go against the grain, but when guys like Chris Harris prefers the 'comfort steering' in something like the F80 M3, compared to the sport setting, gives us a clue that heavy steering is not always the desired option.

The steering could be calibrated to be heavier and tighten up more than we have now. We know that, as some models in a range do have tighter steering, even running the same wheel sizes.

[///d]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Aren't we really back to the design and user compromises? Reduced NVH being a major factor for most drivers. Plus the desire for lighter controls.

I do believe where some of us have issue, is wanting a more solid steering feel, which we can 'man handle', rather than be willing to adapt to more sensitive and lighter inputs.

I believe that anyone who adapts to a more sensitive steering 'awareness', like applying lighter movements, even a lighter grip of the wheel, will find there is much more precision and greater road feel coming back through the wheel, than they first think is there. Yes, it may go against the grain, but when guys like Chris Harris prefers the 'comfort steering' in something like the F80 M3, compared to the sport setting, gives us a clue that heavy steering is not always the desired option.

The steering could be calibrated to be heavier and tighten up more than we have now. We know that, as some models in a range do have tighter steering, even running the same wheel sizes.

I dont know that anyone has figured out how to change it. At least not through coding.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by ///d

I dont know that anyone has figured out how to change it. At least not through coding.

Whether there is any possibility a user could code a change, I've no idea. I'm guessing it would be a complex change, as other functions like DSC are involved in the feedback loop.

My thinking, BMW could do so at the design and software stage. By reason of how they tune the steering for different model ranges. How they have purposely made lighter steering, through the years of using EPS.

[arentz07]

Regarding the whole IS 500 steering feel topic...

As someone who has both an IS 350 and a G20 330i M Sport in the garage, yes, the Lexus has my favorite steering between the two. However, I do wish the steering rack was just a little quicker. Unlike the BMW, it has a fixed-ratio steering rack. This means it feels a lot more natural, but it also takes more steering input to make my way through the twisty bits. Having said that, I actually can feel the wheel responding to imperfections in the road from time to time, which is more than I can say for the BMW. The 330i actually has better steering than I remember in a couple of BMWs I've driven previously - an F30 335i and an F22 M235i. Both of those cars had numb steering that somehow felt overboosted - I am probably not describing it well, but it was nothing special. My 2016 Mk7 GTI had much better steering. The G20 actually has decent weight on center and isn't overly darty while still being quick to respond. Sure, it took some getting used to, but I rather like it.

I agree with past comments on the Macan, too, that car has some nice steering! I rented a Macan Turbo on Turo a few years ago and had a blast with it.