[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by chaungo

They're not hiding anything, there are certain things that are in the grey zone that the FIA considers part of the budget cap that Redbull says it shouldn't be included as they interpreted it a different way. Sick leave and catering for example, as it was COVID year, I can imagine the amount of paid sick leave used for their employees.

Sorry I’m not sure you understand. The accounts have not been filed in companies house in the UK by Redbull. It needed to be done by the end of September for last years accounts. They haven’t done that are are late and will be fined not the FIA but they are currently breaching up accounting rules.

The other UK F1 teams have all filed on time from what I can see, that is clear cut I’m afraid, there is more than just the FIA to deal with and laws to comply with.

[kring]

FIA said that RB failed to deliver required financial details and is in violation as what they have indicates over-spend. The verdict is in. RB has absolutly no defense to this other then they would rather look to fight this through speculation rather then disclose their required financials. It’s no longer speculation, it’s officially noted that RedBull is in breach/violation. I hope we get full disclosure as this comes to light over the coming days. RB is trying to minimize it, but it will come down to the actual amount/value and what practices RB did with the finances to hide or diminish. It’s possible RB is caught doing creative accounting as well. It’s going to come down to the flagrancy and total dollar value.

the rules state FIA possible punishment. Public reprimand, driver or constructors point deductions, suspension from future races, reduction in future R&D budgets.

Based on the flagrency, deception and total dollar… it’s going to range from nothing but a hand slap, which I think we’re well beyond that. If it turns out they spend a few million over cap then it should be a strong response and Max can loose his title with some point reductions. If it’s less than $1M then it can be reduction of future R&D or race suspension.

Either way, since the cost-cap is new, and is the future of F1 - IMO this needs to set a precedence setting punishment; they need to wallop RB for this if it turns out to be egregious as a few million over-spend is an absolute and significant advantage over a 22-24 race season.

I am assuming RB will give up their financials as required and agree to a full in-depth audit of their financial practices to determine exact over-spend. If RB drags this out refusing to provide access and details or respond to questions, then IMP they should disqualified from 2021 from all races, suspend for all of 2022, and banned for 2023 - there should be no room for RB to resist or fight this. Now RB would be crazy to let it go this far, but FIA/F1 needs to enforce this level of punishment for non-compliance.

I just saw they classified it as “minor breach” but that could still be millions which is substantial… I think <5% is the minor level which is $2.2M.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by 3798j

Don't know about that, but I do know Max will someday have a WDC that will be indisputable.

Mate. I can feel your pain ...It really hurts !

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by kring

I think <5% is the minor level which is $2.2M.

<5% would be an amount of up to $7.25 million. While I don't think Red Bull spent that much over the cap (that amount would be inexcusable), $1-2 million would still be significant even if classified as "minor" especially to a team like Red Bull who are already a top tier team.

And it's not just the 2021 season. We don't know if the spending was strictly for 2021 or if this was something that carried over into this years car. To simply dismiss this because it happened last year or because one deems the overspend insignificant would be wrong especially because this is Red Bull. I'm not pointing the finger directly at Red Bull but over spending by a team like Williams is not the same as over spending by Red Bull, Ferrari or Mercedes.

You can argue classification this and that but at the end of the day, every team didn't breach the cap except one. It's safe to assume that anything to do with last year's championship will be untouched so I'm looking for a significant fine and a decrease in wind tunnel testing. Sanctions have to be tough out the gate - the perception of the FIA will get a lot worse if Red Bull gets a slap on the wrist because it's the first year of the cap and those who breach rules in the future get the severe penalties.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

It's a ''long and complex process'' as they say. How they will calculate with electronic receipts? Not like the old days when everything was on paper in black and white.

This thread is actually a storm in a glass of water ...

[ToddBlack88]

Originally Posted by kring

FIA said that RB failed to deliver required financial details and is in violation as what they have indicates over-spend. The verdict is in. RB has absolutly no defense to this other then they would rather look to fight this through speculation rather then disclose their required financials. It’s no longer speculation, it’s officially noted that RedBull is in breach/violation. I hope we get full disclosure as this comes to light over the coming days. RB is trying to minimize it, but it will come down to the actual amount/value and what practices RB did with the finances to hide or diminish. It’s possible RB is caught doing creative accounting as well. It’s going to come down to the flagrancy and total dollar value.

the rules state FIA possible punishment. Public reprimand, driver or constructors point deductions, suspension from future races, reduction in future R&D budgets.

Based on the flagrency, deception and total dollar… it’s going to range from nothing but a hand slap, which I think we’re well beyond that. If it turns out they spend a few million over cap then it should be a strong response and Max can loose his title with some point reductions. If it’s less than $1M then it can be reduction of future R&D or race suspension.

Either way, since the cost-cap is new, and is the future of F1 - IMO this needs to set a precedence setting punishment; they need to wallop RB for this if it turns out to be egregious as a few million over-spend is an absolute and significant advantage over a 22-24 race season.

I am assuming RB will give up their financials as required and agree to a full in-depth audit of their financial practices to determine exact over-spend. If RB drags this out refusing to provide access and details or respond to questions, then IMP they should disqualified from 2021 from all races, suspend for all of 2022, and banned for 2023 - there should be no room for RB to resist or fight this. Now RB would be crazy to let it go this far, but FIA/F1 needs to enforce this level of punishment for non-compliance.

I just saw they classified it as “minor breach” but that could still be millions which is substantial… I think <5% is the minor level which is $2.2M.

I read <5% , so somewhere between $0 and 7 million and change or so. 145 million cost cap. That’s a substantial amount if it’s near %5, but I don’t believe it’s that much.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

This thread is actually a storm in a glass of water ...

Just like every VER/HAM, Red Bull/Mercedes thread/topic.

[///M Power-Belgium]

You know what is unbelievable ?

That Wollf is tipped by a FIA staff member and got (fake-exaggerated) information .

Wolff and Mercedes is already been tipped "twice" by the same woman (ex Mercedes) !

Wolff is involved in corruption practices to get private protected FIA information .

[G30M]

sorry to disappoint you but the FIA are not going to do anything.

still I'd like more details

juicy details!

[kring]

Ferrari equated $5M over-spend in R&D to a 0.5 second improvement in lap times. That’s game changer, even if it’s $2M that could be 2 tenths or more…. I’m sure this is pumped up a bit, but given how limited F1 teams are to on-track testing, wind tunnel and R&D; it could very well be that substantial. And that could carry year-over-year to benefits. It’s also might not translate to speed, it could mean significantly more reliability.

I hope the details come out, not to go after RB, but at minimum understand what FIA/F1 position will be on breaches… no action will mean everyone just busts through the cap this year and next.

[MontyB1]

Just to update Redbull Racing STILL haven't posted their accounts for last year. Now just for a comparison Red Bull last year had their accounts signed off in February and published them by the deadline. That is crazy fast this year, they haven't published them at all. Their auditions are EY where as the FIA are using Deloitte so both heavyweight auditors.

Red Bull Racing Companies house

Red Bull Advanced Technologies

Its interesting to look over them, there are very few directors across both companies and the vast majority of employees actually sit I the Red Bull Advanced Tech company, I haven't added the Powertrains business or the other 4 entities they are using to trying and potentially hide any overspend in. Christian looks to be getting paid about £5m but that could be more getting multiple payments as directors of more complains. Their CFO seems to be on £300k.

Still can't compare the numbers to any other team yet as they STILL haven't published the accounts yet and its still showing as late. Am sure they aren't hiding anything, oh no.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

You know what is unbelievable ?

That Wollf is tipped by a FIA staff member and got (fake-exaggerated) information .

Wolff and Mercedes is already been tipped "twice" by the same woman (ex Mercedes) !

Wolff is involved in corruption practices to get private protected FIA information .

That on it's own is a red warning for 'conflicts of interests' that has not been addressed and it's known he has friends in hi gh places, another reason he should leave F1 for the sake of the other teams.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

That on it's own is a red warning for 'conflicts of interests' that has not been addressed and it's known he has friends in hi gh places, another reason he should leave F1 for the sake of the other teams.

The Mercedes #BlitzKrieg !

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

The Mercedes #BlitzKrieg !

The secret squadron of 'stuka' dive bombers will be brought out if things get too hot for him 1

[3798j]

If RedBull is smart they'll take an ABA (Accepted Breach Agreement).

"The advantage of an ABA would mean that no points could be deducted by the FIA, nor can the team's budget for the future be reduced as a penalty.
The team could still be banned from one or more sessions, including a testing or qualifying session, allocated less aerodynamic time in their wind tunnel, or receive a public reprimand."

[MontyB1]

Red Bull accepting an ABA would be easy for them to do and the damage would be limited but they seem to want to defend it, we shall see.

One thing that appears to be a potential bone of contention is Adrian Newey which would be rather ironic. Apparently he gets paid as a consultant to the company probably to his own limit company. Expect if that is the case he reduces his own tax burden but what the issue then is he isn't an employee and can't be called as one of the top 3 highest paid within the cost cap rules. If this is the case it would be funny and from an accounting prospective he is most certainly a supplier and NOT an employee and the auditors will have the same view and like FIA and their auditors.

Looking at the accounts Hemet, Christian, DM and a few others are directors but interestingly not Adrian which would back things up as you would expect him to be a director considering his role but no.

[3798j]

The desire to "backroom" it with an ABA should be tempting...minmize embarrassment, penalty avoidance and probably a few more reasons.

"If the team chooses to take the matter on and go in front of judges so it can plead its case, then equally the final judgement will be made public."
Article 7.27 of the rules states: "The Cost Cap Adjudication Panel will publish the decision of the judging panel and the grounds upon which they are based, save for any Confidential Information."

[lens]

Redbull will 100% appeal and bring it to court if they need to, they audited themselves by top auditors and they were under, and FIA says they're over by a tiny bit when they did theirs.

People are just overexaggerating, they'll be fine.

It does seem like we have alot of haters though, apparently 8 years of mercedes dominance didn't raise any questions, but two years of WDC for Redbull and everyone is trying absolutely everything to DSQ them.

[Killed by Death]

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by chaungo

Redbull will 100% appeal and bring it to court if they need to, they audited themselves by top auditors and they were under, and FIA says they're over by a tiny bit when they did theirs.

People are just overexaggerating, they'll be fine.

It does seem like we have alot of haters though, apparently 8 years of mercedes dominance didn't raise any questions, but two years of WDC for Redbull and everyone is trying absolutely everything to DSQ them.

Sorry but that is just complete conjecture. If they have completed their audit and the accounts have been signed off across the group then why not post the accounts. They are in breach of UK accounting rules as it stands. There could be a good reason but last year the audit of RBR was done in Feb and posted in time no issues. We are 2x weeks past the deadline and nothing.

So when you say 'absolutely X Y Z' lets be absolutely clear if they have nothing to hide then they should post their accounts in the regulated way and we can all take a look and help them clear their name.. sound reasonable?

[Killed by Death]

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Red Bull gives you wings my friend !