[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

My biggest worry on this forum is if I were to decide to write a review for my G20 coming hopefully soon and post it on here, and if I end up liking it more than my Hydraulic steering E90 (no guarantee, but going in with an open mind), that most of you will say I don't know what I am talking about and criticize that, and say that my thoughts are wrong or irrelevant, or say, I don't know what a REAL BMW drives like.

It has come to being scared of the car enthusiast community. That is horrifying. We are allowed to have our likes and our dislikes, our favorites and our despises, but they are just that, opinions.

What a great way to show enthusiasm for the car community by telling someone that their vehicle is supposedly a piece of garbage compared to what they should have gotten or should like or what others have.

People drive beaters on the street, or even on the track, and have fun.

Cars should be fun to drive. If they are fun to drive for the driver, then what else really matters? We should welcome the newcomers who like the new big screens and technology, and tell them to enjoy their rides, because every car can be enjoyable with the right driver

There many users who rate the G2x vehicles. Don't be put off, I remember the past with fondness. If you are not driving the older stuff now and simply in the current models, enjoy! There is a bit of "rose coloured glasses" going on. That's not to say some of the older cars aren't BMW models that set the benchmark for what can be achieved, with smaller lighter weight vehicles.

I'll put my flame suit on... But I was there, all wasn't perfect with BMW.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Patton250

It’s interesting. I’m a member of many car forums and this is the only brand (BMW) where its enthusiasts are mad the the manufacturer doesn’t keep all the grills looking exactly the same on every model. No other car manufacturer does this or ever has except BMW. Now they have changed a few grills and some enthusiasts are livid. Mean while they are selling like hotcakes. The M5 and M8 have the same old grille. Does BMW really need to keep ALL M’s the same out front to keep your continued loyalty?

I talk with BMW owners who are not on forums, there's a love for the modern designs. Even returned to BMW because they have "at last" got up to date and modern. Many rate the 4-series and the latest M3/4 M-car designs. Get more positive comments from the public, than they ever had with the older, more conservative designs.

I do sense many enthusiasts are being left behind. When M3/M4 drivers rate the latest models as the best M-car they have ever had, there is definitely mixed opinion.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I talk with BMW owners who are not on forums, there's a love for the modern designs. Even returned to BMW because they have "at last" got up to date and modern. Many rate the 4-series and the latest M3/4 M-car designs. Get more positive comments from the public, than they ever had with the older, more conservative designs.

I do sense many enthusiasts are being left behind. When M3/M4 drivers rate the latest models as the best M-car they have ever had, there is definitely mixed opinion.

Yes I’ve noticed the same thing. Lots of positive comments on the new grilles. Ive owned 2 M3 G80s and now I’m allocated to get an F90 M5. I love the whole lineup. My wife drives the X3. Great stuff.

[TheMaxXHD]

If this forum had their way, they'd leave everyone to believe the newest BMW's, especially the G20, has worse driving dynamics than a Honda.

They'd also lead you to believe the X3/X5 is only meant for soccer moms and is an otherwise equally badly driving SUV as any other SUV on the market with no place in BMW's lineup, and no alternative to a sedan/coup. Which anyone that has driven them would know that while you can't beat physics, it does get close for an SUV to the sedans, and are some of the best handling SUVs on the market.

There may be some minor regression in driving dynamics over the decades depending on who you ask and personal preferences, but it did not just fall off a cliff. They still drive better than most vehicles on the road, and certainly drive way better than your average Honda. They still are some of the best driving cars on the market.

Also for the record. I think iDrive 8 looks amazing. Can't wait to use it.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

If this forum had their way, they'd leave everyone to believe the newest BMW's, especially the G20, has worse driving dynamics than a Honda.

They'd also lead you to believe the X3/X5 is only meant for soccer moms and is an otherwise equally badly driving SUV as any other SUV on the market with no place in BMW's lineup, and no alternative to a sedan/coup.

Both of these statements are patently false.

The driving dynamics (and the overall performance) of the G20 are almost universally praised by the vast majority of members who have posted on this forum. And have been from the first day they went on sale in the U.S.

It is also almost universally agreed on this forum that BMW’s SUVs are the best driving and handling SUVs on the market. Only possibly bested by the Porsche Macan. Personally, I can’t recall a single instance of reading a post where someone equated the driving dynamics of a BMW SUV to those of other “regular” SUVs.

[Tejas1836]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

If this forum had their way, they'd leave everyone to believe the newest BMW's, especially the G20, has worse driving dynamics than a Honda.

They'd also lead you to believe the X3/X5 is only meant for soccer moms and is an otherwise equally badly driving SUV as any other SUV on the market with no place in BMW's lineup, and no alternative to a sedan/coup. Which anyone that has driven them would know that while you can't beat physics, it does get close for an SUV to the sedans, and are some of the best handling SUVs on the market.

There may be some minor regression in driving dynamics over the decades depending on who you ask and personal preferences, but it did not just fall off a cliff. They still drive better than most vehicles on the road, and certainly drive way better than your average Honda. They still are some of the best driving cars on the market.

Also for the record. I think iDrive 8 looks amazing. Can't wait to use it.

I think it will be amazing when they get it out of beta design and have it integrated into the dash

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

My biggest worry on this forum is if I were to decide to write a review for my G20 coming hopefully soon and post it on here, and if I end up liking it more than my Hydraulic steering E90 (no guarantee, but going in with an open mind), that most of you will say I don't know what I am talking about and criticize that, and say that my thoughts are wrong or irrelevant, or say, I don't know what a REAL BMW drives like.

It has come to being scared of the car enthusiast community. That is horrifying. We are allowed to have our likes and our dislikes, our favorites and our despises, but they are just that, opinions.

What a great way to show enthusiasm for the car community by telling someone that their vehicle is supposedly a piece of garbage compared to what they should have gotten or should like or what others have.

People drive beaters on the street, or even on the track, and have fun.

Cars should be fun to drive. If they are fun to drive for the driver, then what else really matters? We should welcome the newcomers who like the new big screens and technology, and tell them to enjoy their rides, because every car can be enjoyable with the right driver

If you've never driven a "classic" BMW when they were new (and not yet classic) in comparison to their in-the-era compatriots, you can't grasp what I wrote. My point is not about what other people think about your automotive choice. Its not about your self esteem and self image portrayed by the badge on the hood. BMWs were simply better cars to drive and safer cars to drive because they were purposely engineered to be. Classic BMWs intuitively did what the driver wanted, not by computer aided driving apps, but because the chassis engineering was better. That's why BMWs gained popularity in the late 1970s and 1980s when the US economy was flowing with cash and people began to buy BMWs as status symbols.

The "target audience" of BMW were the original buyers like me who bought a BMW because how it drove and not for the Roundel on the hood. The target audience were the men and women who understood the engineering and why an in-line 6 is balanced and how that affects the feel of the machine, understood the importance of 50/50 weight balance, the importance of sightlines, the impotence of clutch take-up feel, and of brake pedal feedback. It was not about the fun of the drive but rather the quality of the drive.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

If you've never driven a "classic" BMW when they were new (and not yet classic) in comparison to their in-the-era compatriots, you can't grasp what I wrote. My point is not about what other people think about your automotive choice. Its not about your self esteem and self image portrayed by the badge on the hood. BMWs were simply better cars to drive and safer cars to drive because they were purposely engineered to be. Classic BMWs intuitively did what the driver wanted, not by computer aided driving apps, but because the chassis engineering was better. That's why BMWs gained popularity in the late 1970s and 1980s when the US economy was flowing with cash and people began to buy BMWs as status symbols.

The "target audience" of BMW were the original buyers like me who bought a BMW because how it drove and not for the Roundel on the hood. The target audience were the men and women who understood the engineering and why an in-line 6 is balanced and how that affects the feel of the machine, understood the importance of 50/50 weight balance, the importance of sightlines, the impotence of clutch take-up feel, and of brake pedal feedback. It was not about the fun of the drive but rather the quality of the drive.

Um…. I need your help here. A little clarification please. You’re not going as far as saying (for example) the E28 had a better chassis, and drove better then the F90 are you? Yes I realize my question is probably pretty stupid but your nostalgic post confused me because it reads like that’s exactly what you think.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Um…. I need your help here. A little clarification please. You’re not going as far as saying (for example) the E28 had a better chassis, and drove better then the F90 are you? Yes I realize my question is probably pretty stupid but your nostalgic post confused me because it reads like that’s exactly what you think.

The message of my nostalgic post is not a comparison between modern BMWs and Classic BMWs.

But with the advent of the time machine, I'd take a showroom-fresh E28 M5 any day over any current BMW.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The message of my nostalgic post is not a comparison between modern BMWs and Classic BMWs.

But with the advent of the time machine, I'd take a showroom-fresh E28 M5 any day over any current BMW.

Okay, I'll bite. How many bought into BMW for the M5 models? Such a small market, compared to the 'lesser' models. I've driven the E28 M5, yes a positive experience, but not as practical for me (or most BMW 5-series drivers of the period), as a well spec'd E28 528i. Even back then, with appreciation for BMW engineering and driving dynamics, many of us chose our BMW for practicality and creature comforts.

Isn't it the same today? Comparing to the past is, IMO, definitely a nostalgic experience, a bit of the "good old days" reminiscing. The motoring scene has changed on so many counts. Weight, safety, emissions, size, etc. Yes, I get the feeling for 1970 - 1980s models, I also have the memories of how BMW stood above the crowd for driving pleasure.

For me, it is different than many who know the past, a new E28 M5 or a new F90 M5? I'd be taking the F90.

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Okay, I'll bite. How many bought into BMW for the M5 models? Such a small market, compared to the 'lesser' models. I've driven the E28 M5, yes a positive experience, but not as practical for me (or most BMW 5-series drivers of the period), as a well spec'd E28 528i. Even back then, with appreciation for BMW engineering and driving dynamics, many of us chose our BMW for practicality and creature comforts.

I found no difference in comfort between my 535is and the M5. I opted for my first E28 decades ago because the cost of maintaining an M5 over a 535is was huge compared to the relatively small power increase. Same seats. Same body, half the price. To the contrary, I never considered a 528 because here in the US that meant 528e (I already had an E12 528i).

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

I found no difference in comfort between my 535is and the M5. I opted for my first E28 decades ago because the cost of maintaining an M5 over a 535is was huge compared to the relatively small power increase. Same seats. Same body, half the price. To the contrary, I never considered a 528 because here in the US that meant 528e (I already had an E12 528i).

I realise the markets were set up differently, but here in the UK the typical 528i was in SE (Special Equipment) specification. The M5 was less well appointed, the value in the M-division engineering.

The other issue we were starting to notice by the time the E28 models were coming to the UK, suspensions (although firm) were not ideally tuned for UK roads. Our UK chassis engineers in Ford and Rover knew how to tune a chassis, particularly damping for UK use. This became more noticeable as we moved on through the model generations. I'm aware of BMW chassis engineers coming to the UK, to try and fine tune for the UK, a bigger challenge than easily sorted. Secondary ride comfort being the biggest issue and generating the customer complaints. Hence so many UK motor mag' reviews over the years advising users to skip the sport suspensions.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Um…. I need your help here. A little clarification please. You’re not going as far as saying (for example) the E28 had a better chassis, and drove better then the F90 are you? Yes I realize my question is probably pretty stupid but your nostalgic post confused me because it reads like that’s exactly what you think.

Won't speak for Effthreeoh but quite sure he's not comparing classic to current. He's comparing 80's BMW's to 80's Audi's or 80's Mercedes or really any other car.

At any point in time, until recently, BMW was always the best driving car compared to its competition given what they knew at the time about how to design cars. They don't seem to be caring about doing that any more. That's what makes a lot of us sad.

And yes, in many ways the older cars if not "better" all around were certainly more engaging. An older engaging car can be more fun than a more modern less engaging car. My 135i isn't a "better" car that a current 330i. But it's a crap load more engaging to drive, that's for certain. Would I swap it out for free? Nope. Not if I actually had to keep and drive the 330i.

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Pretty sure not classic to current. Comparing 80's BMW's to 80's Audi's or 80's Mercedes or really any other car.

At any point in time, until recently, BMW was always the best driving car compared to its competition given what they knew at the time about how to design cars.

They don't seem to be caring about doing that any more. That's what makes a lot of us sad.

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Pretty sure not classic to current. Comparing 80's BMW's to 80's Audi's or 80's Mercedes or really any other car.

At any point in time, until recently, BMW was always the best driving car compared to its competition given what they knew at the time about how to design cars.

They don't seem to be caring about doing that any more. That's what makes a lot of us sad.

But that's literally every single car on the market. Cars were built better 40 years ago then they are now. That said, they also weren't, everything was lighter and less sturdy and if you rolled over on the roof you were screwed, because the roof was so unsupported you'd be in a lot of trouble. Same thing with the doors. The doors themselves were nice, but the entire frames were more flimsy and overall less safe.

Sure they were built better. But not in the way you think. They were built using better materials. But also, part of that was they were lighter, and often times that lightness and chassis dynamics were at the expense of the actual structural integrity of the frame, and thus if you got hit, and especially if you rolled over, you had much less protecting you. Than you do now.

The 80s were a different time. To want an 80s built car on the road today, you would be driving less a nice car, and more an unsafe car.

[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by Patton250

It’s interesting. I’m a member of many car forums and this is the only brand (BMW) where its enthusiasts are mad the the manufacturer doesn’t keep all the grills looking exactly the same on every model. No other car manufacturer does this or ever has except BMW. Now they have changed a few grills and some enthusiasts are livid. Mean while they are selling like hotcakes. The M5 and M8 have the same old grille. Does BMW really need to keep ALL M’s the same out front to keep your continued loyalty?

You have set up a false premise and then knocked it down. Many if not most of us who dislike the new Bugs Bunny grille are not wedded to the old grille. We just want a front end that doesn't make us puke.

[TheMaxXHD]

All this over a grill......I don't exactly like the design either....but you don't see me being all enraged by it.

If you don't like it, don't buy it. Instead of complaining on a forum, speak with the wallets.

But that is the problem, they still sell, so anyone that hates the grills has to be mad, because their precious brand doesn't need to listen to them.

If you want my honest assessment, the negativity of the grill caused publicity to increase even further, causing more sales. Not exactly the Streisand effect, but something akin to it. In actual fact, that was probably BMW's goal, to create a unique design that causes publicity (positive or negative), to stand out and increase sales. The BMW M lineups in particular, aren't high volume, so the more attention, the better.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

The 80s were a different time. To want an 80s built car on the road today, you would be driving less a nice car, and more an unsafe car.

I still think you're missing what's being lamented here. I'll put it another way.

80's, 90's, 00's, etc: 3 Series were kick ass cars compared to Accords and Camries. People who actually liked driving cars preferred them because they were communicative and engaging.

Today: 3 Series is interchangeable with Accord and Camry. Drive your toaster to work. Yawn.

No one is in love with the older cars, specifically. It's the engagement, "driver's car" thing that's been lost. BMW is not trying any more. If you like their current cars now, you'd LOVE what the current cars could be like if they hadn't quit.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Onesie

Nobody is talking about grilles. Not the article posted, not anyone else. Just you.

Who said we are simply limited to the content of 'one article' in this discussion? I sense 'forum police' in some of your comments.

I'm going to comment on the grilles. From reading and observation, if the grilles were more acceptable to many of the enthusiasts, there wouldn't be half as much negativity to the brand.

Many on the BMW forums say they are leaving the brand because of the looks, specifically due to the latest grilles. Sad that something that many buyers see as a fresh and modern look is causing such polarised reactions.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

No one is in love with the older cars, specifically. It's the engagement, "driver's car" thing that's been lost. BMW is not trying any more. If you like their current cars now, you'd LOVE what the current cars could be like if they hadn't quit.

The question is how do we define what that 'engagement' would be in the current context of bigger and heavy vehicles, where NVH takes on a much more important role in design and build?

BTW, it wasn't only BMW that had 'engagement' back in the 70s and 80s, here in the UK. I ran a Triumph Dolomite Sprint which compared to the E21 320. Both provided driver involvement.

[tracer bullet]

I think defining engagement is still the same. It can still be done with today's vehicles including EPS. BMW doesn't want to, they've said so. We used to wonder why they couldn't figure out how, then we learned they didn't want to. Sure it may be different than in the past, but they aren't even trying. This is the issue.

[TheMaxXHD]

Idk what to say. Enjoy the vehicles you drive? It's not this complex of an issue. If you like it, who cares? If you don't like it, who cares? Everyone is different.

This applies to any car, whether it be a BMW or Honda.

Also lol to whoever thinks a BMW 3 series is interchangeable with a Honda Accord. Have you driven a Honda Accord? I have, it drives nothing like a modern BMW. A good car yes, but BMW 3 series good, nah.

Sometimes I wonder how many of you have driven cars that aren't in the luxury or performance class. Go drive a modern Subaru with a CVT, see what you are missing. I have. I guarantee you, the BMW 3 series trounces it.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

I think defining engagement is still the same. It can still be done with today's vehicles including EPS. BMW doesn't want to, they've said so. We used to wonder why they couldn't figure out how, then we learned they didn't want to. Sure it may be different than in the past, but they aren't even trying. This is the issue.

I've read a lot of the "quotes" which get translated as "they don't want to". Is it really that simple, or are there different user priorities?

Being with the 5-series from the first generation E12, thought I'd simply pick at random a UK performance motor magazine and see how they describe the latest generation 5-series, the G30.

From EVO article; "BMW 5-series review - is this the best saloon in the world?"

"BMW's most complete 5-series ever, there are almost no compromises in this exceptional executive".

From the preview...

Ride and handling - Always a dynamic benchmark in the class, the G30 builds on the previous model’s talents, while continuing to improve on comfort and refinement.

https://www.evo.co.uk/bmw/5-series

Ride and handling
BMW has long set the benchmark for sweet handling executive cars, and the new G30 is no different. It’s ultimately more about infinite capability than excitement but BMW took no chances with the latest 5-series to ensure it had a breadth of abilities that would surpass all rivals.

As a base, BMW has upgraded the 5-series’ core structure by stiffening the areas around the sub assemblies and suspension mounting points. This added stiffness has been combined with a reduction in weight and a lower centre of gravity, imbuing the 5-series with an impressively sorted chassis.

Like all cars, the choice of wheel and tyre does have an effect on the overall ride and handling, with 18-inch wheels the sweet spot size-wise as they still have enough sidewall to absorb the worst impacts without transferring them into the cabin. Bigger wheels look better, but their large increase in unsprung mass is violently felt every time one of them drops into a pothole.

The optional adaptive dampers improve the ride quality further, but also tighten up the body control when speeds rise and ‘Sport mode’ is selected. The front end has a surprisingly tenacious appetite for apex’, with light, but accurate electric steering giving you confidence to carry considerable speed into corners. The rest of the car follows faithfully, with excellent body control over even the roughest UK road surfaces.

What's not to like?