[KANdaddy]

Originally Posted by MontegoblueE92

Typical BMW driver

Well its meant a bit in jest. Its just kinda annoying endlessly going back and forth...

[E90SLAM]

[E90SLAM]

Originally Posted by KANdaddy

Well its meant a bit in jest. Its just kinda annoying endlessly going back and forth...

I understand what he meant...but he got caught up too much with the "second half" of the season....and trying to strip away Button's WDC if he is Max Mosley...

[E90SLAM]

If we look at the last 4 races in 2008...HELL!!!

Alonso got 33 points!!! (even tho 10 points was cheated)

Selective statistics can be misleading....

[MontegoblueE92]

Originally Posted by KANdaddy

Well its meant a bit in jest. Its just kinda annoying endlessly going back and forth...

I knew what you meant. I had to take advantage of the oppurtunity.

While I don't believe Button is the best champ, he took the opportunity to win while he had the best car. I think in a way it is good for the driving community. Because now, we see how close the cars really are, and that a slight edge can win the crown.

My dad believes Lewis Hamilton's win was a fluke. This season Hamilton had such a bad car at the beginning of the season. He got disqualified from the first race. Then had 5 races in a row where he didn't score a single point. He also had a pointless crash at Monza.

My dad doesn't realize that the cars are at such a peak that they're all just about as good as each other. With Hamilton having a slightly worse car, he was always at the back. The way you can tell how good a car is is to see where the other driver is. Not counting driver errors, if two teammates are not close together in the race it tells you one is driving better.

Same here, with Button winning and Barrichello taking the fight to the second to last race, it shows the BGP001 was just an incredible car. Button is good, but he's not the next Alonso or Raikkonen.

[Rto]

Originally Posted by KANdaddy

And if one were to apply your arguement to Rubens then why did he not win more in the beginning when the Brawn car was supposedly so strong? Why was it Button not him with 6 wins? One could argue coming into 2009 that he was a better driver with more skill than Button. Why then did he still only end up with 2 wins for the entire season despite "outperforming" Button in the second part of the year?

Some other facts to be considered:

1)External pressure:
Did you know Barrichello sign a contract for only the first 4 races of the season? (And still have the same contract until now?);

2)Tech fact:
JB's driving style really adapted like a glove to the car and RB made it only after they changed the brake manufacturer and/or parts mid season...
RB breaks much more inside the curves while JB does before and in some way his style matched better to that "first" car version;

I understand when people say that championship is like a marathon and so points are collected thru out the races and that all races are important to put a gap etc...but, it is on adversities and a more competitive races and cars
that you can see what a driver is capable of doing so.

There is not really a comparison between JB and Hamilton, Vettel, Raikonen, RB, Alonso....really

JB never proved at this season to be that driver JMHO...almost every race he started in the middle of the grid he ended up making points just because he was VERY LUCKY (Safety cars at the right moment for him, crashes that he was lucky to be out of it, except for Spa) so...pretty much the last races (mid to end season) he was not able to get a good quali and really fight with other drivers and cars.

What I'm trying to say is that JB did get his victories (6) when there were no other cars to really compete against him...RB would be the only one, and I think he really tried, but at least in 2 races: Germany and Spain the team changed the plan/pit order and so on in the middle of the race against him and in favor of JB, so...

JMHO

[Rto]

Originally Posted by MontegoblueE92

I knew what you meant. I had to take advantage of the oppurtunity.

While I don't believe Button is the best champ, he took the opportunity to win while he had the best car. I think in a way it is good for the driving community. Because now, we see how close the cars really are, and that a slight edge can win the crown.

My dad believes Lewis Hamilton's win was a fluke. This season Hamilton had such a bad car at the beginning of the season. He got disqualified from the first race. Then had 5 races in a row where he didn't score a single point. He also had a pointless crash at Monza.

My dad doesn't realize that the cars are at such a peak that they're all just about as good as each other. With Hamilton having a slightly worse car, he was always at the back. The way you can tell how good a car is is to see where the other driver is. Not counting driver errors, if two teammates are not close together in the race it tells you one is driving better.

Same here, with Button winning and Barrichello taking the fight to the second to last race, it shows the BGP001 was just an incredible car. Button is good, but he's not the next Alonso or Raikkonen.

The real champion for Season 2008 should be Massa and not Hamilton!

That terrible and fake Sing GP crash changed ALL the results and that race should be deleted and points as well...and in that case Felipe would be the real champion

Unfortunately is too late now and would not benefit the F1 to just now change it, but that was a crime!!!

[E90SLAM]

Originally Posted by Rto

The real champion for Season 2008 should be Massa and not Hamilton!

That terrible and fake Sing GP crash changed ALL the results and that race should be deleted and points as well...and in that case Felipe would be the real champion

Unfortunately is too late now and would not benefit the F1 to just now change it, but that was a crime!!!

Changing or deleting the race points for Singapore 2008 will just make the bad reputation of Formula One worse....

We've got enough dramas this year about the medal system, DDD, FOTA, Silverstone or Donington, KERS is overrated, Max stepping down, Race fixing....we don't need another....i think what happened on Sunday is just fantastic and showed what Formula One racing should be....overtaking and taking chances....

Its hard to conclude "what ifs" for 2008, since Massa suffered engine reliability in Hungarian and the beginning Australian GP....as well as spun out in Malaysia and British GP....
well...Belgian was also debatable....but that's all history....we do not need to argue again.....

[Ramos]

So I get called a douche for going back and forth, and when I retire from the debate, you guys keep going back and forth... guess who the Real Douches are now !!!

[E90SLAM]

Back and forth...sounds like Toyota's qualifying....

[KANdaddy]

Originally Posted by Ramos

So I get called a douche for going back and forth, and when I retire from the debate, you guys keep going back and forth... guess who the Real Douches are now !!!

[1BMW4fun]

Originally Posted by Rto

The real champion for Season 2008 should be Massa and not Hamilton!

That terrible and fake Sing GP crash changed ALL the results and that race should be deleted and points as well...and in that case Felipe would be the real champion

Unfortunately is too late now and would not benefit the F1 to just now change it, but that was a crime!!!

You are talking change probability, if you talk about deleting the Sing GP race then I could say what if they did not penalized Lewis at Spa GP for a team fault instead of a driver's fault.

[NeTWorKz]

Is Button a good driver? Yes.
Is he a worthy champion? Yes.
Is he better then Raikkonen, Alonso and Hamilton? Not exactly but he'd be 4th best along with a few others like Kubica/Vettel and Massa.

Button totally deserved to win this year's WDC, he made the most out of his car even if in the beginning of the season he had the DDD before everyone. You still need a decent-good driver to win races in a good car and a good-driver to fight for points in a sub-par/good car.

I just can't for next year, I'd assume a WDC would motivate and give Button the experience he needs to step up his game vs Kimi/Lewis/Alonso/Massa/Kubica

[MontegoblueE92]

Originally Posted by NeTWorKz

Is Button a good driver? Yes.
Is he a worthy champion? Yes.
Is he better then Raikkonen, Alonso and Hamilton? Not exactly but he'd be 4th best along with a few others like Kubica/Vettel and Massa.

Button totally deserved to win this year's WDC, he made the most out of his car even if in the beginning of the season he had the DDD before everyone. You still need a decent-good driver to win races in a good car and a good-driver to fight for points in a sub-par/good car.

I just can't for next year, I'd assume a WDC would motivate and give Button the experience he needs to step up his game vs Kimi/Lewis/Alonso/Massa/Kubica

Button does not compare to Kubica, Vettel, or Massa. He's the next tier of driver down, next to Barrichello, Webber, and Kovalainen.

He had the DDD at the same time as Toyota and Williams. Yet Red Bull still won the third grand prix of the season. Next season, assuming Raikkonen goes to McLaren, I think it's going to be a Alonso vs. Raikkonen/Hamilton season.

[E90SLAM]

Originally Posted by MontegoblueE92

Button does not compare to Kubica, Vettel, or Massa. He's the next tier of driver down, next to Barrichello, Webber, and Kovalainen.

He had the DDD at the same time as Toyota and Williams. Yet Red Bull still won the third grand prix of the season. Next season, assuming Raikkonen goes to McLaren, I think it's going to be a Alonso vs. Raikkonen/Hamilton season.

Technically the third race was in pouring rain....all the cars has different set up...
example Brazil GP qualifying....the dry/wet setup hampers the lap time in rain...those who didn't even make it into Q3 like Button, Vettel, Hamilton were all quick and got the pace in the dry....

i'd say if the Chinese GP is in the dry....Brawn would've take 7/7 winnings home.....

the real pace of the redbulls didn't really show until the British GP!

[MontegoblueE92]

Originally Posted by E90SLAM

Technically the third race was in pouring rain....all the cars has different set up...
example Brazil GP qualifying....the dry/wet setup hampers the lap time in rain...those who didn't even make it into Q3 like Button, Vettel, Hamilton were all quick and got the pace in the dry....

i'd say if the Chinese GP is in the dry....Brawn would've take 7/7 winnings home.....

the real pace of the redbulls didn't really show until the British GP!

In Australia, Vettel and Kubica crashed out fighting for third place less than 5 seconds behind the Brawns. At the end of the race, Kubica was catching up by almost a second a lap until he tried to pass to aggressively on Vettel. My point is that the DDD did not make or break anyone's season. Pace was still there in the first race. If Kubica hadn't hit Vettel, there's a good chance he would've been second, maybe even first.

[E90SLAM]

Originally Posted by MontegoblueE92

In Australia, Vettel and Kubica crashed out fighting for third place less than 5 seconds behind the Brawns. At the end of the race, Kubica was catching up by almost a second a lap until he tried to pass to aggressively on Vettel. My point is that the DDD did not make or break anyone's season. Pace was still there in the first race. If Kubica hadn't hit Vettel, there's a good chance he would've been second, maybe even first.

However, don't forget there were number of Safety car periods in Australian GP....that closed up the pack a lot.....

RedBull had a very good potential car....but they fail to clinch many points in the early season due to driver and lack of DDD as well as fine tuning....
in the later season....RBR cars could've outpace BGP001 easily...and that's why Christian Horner is so confident and said..."imagine now if we have the DDD"....after the British GP....

[E90SLAM]

Originally Posted by MontegoblueE92

In Australia, Vettel and Kubica crashed out fighting for third place less than 5 seconds behind the Brawns. At the end of the race, Kubica was catching up by almost a second a lap until he tried to pass to aggressively on Vettel. My point is that the DDD did not make or break anyone's season. Pace was still there in the first race. If Kubica hadn't hit Vettel, there's a good chance he would've been second, maybe even first.

after second read of ur post....i thought we were talking about redbull....
but the focus went to BMW....anywayz...
if i remember correctly....RBR had a hard time to excel the option tire in Australia....so that's why Kubica is catching up about a second a lap....

[MontegoblueE92]

Originally Posted by E90SLAM

after second read of ur post....i thought we were talking about redbull....
but the focus went to BMW....anywayz...
if i remember correctly....RBR had a hard time to excel the option tire in Australia....so that's why Kubica is catching up about a second a lap....

I guess we started with Red Bull, but I generalized the non-DDD teams together. But my point was that Kubica was catching the Brawns at that pace.

[KANdaddy]

here we go again.....

[E90SLAM]

[E90SLAM]

Originally Posted by MontegoblueE92

I guess we started with Red Bull, but I generalized the non-DDD teams together. But my point was that Kubica was catching the Brawns at that pace.

I guess what u mean was....DDD wasn't that big of a deal afterall....
if the car was set up properly and designed well....without DDD like RBR is going to be quick!