[Maestro]

Have to give these people lots of credit for having the stay power, the only problem is most everyone is not taking them serious since as it been pointed out numerous times no one seem to know what they are trying to fix or change. Everyone keeps saying the show have some sort of platform or agenda.

Here is my personal view of why I think these people have it right and it does affect 99% of us whether you realize it or not. This is from my personal experience at working a number of companies as well as investing and watching those investments either grow or tank for not other reason other than what Walls has said about a company.

Wall Street is the problem, these have distorted more companies and jobs than any other entity in the US including our government. Reason being Wall Street and their analysises only focused on the short term things they think can make them money in the next 90 days. Because of this they critic business on all these metrics like P/E ratios, Debt Ratio, inventories turns, AP days, Receivable days and the list goes on and on and what Wall Street focus on varies from quarter to quarter and year to year and the new things the business schools are teaching.

Not to say the above are not good things, but I have seen good companies destroy themselves trying to make those metric look good for Wall Street. In turn companies make stupid short term decisions in hopes that the stock will go up a few points and Wall Street is happy. In reality very few companies have been rewarded for all these efforts.

Because Wall Street only know how to focus solely on the metric companies failed to do the right things for their customers and people who helped them be successful. When is the last time you seen Walls Street rip on a company because it have poor customer satisfaction rating or have the wrong product or fail to understand where the market is going before it is completely obvious to all of us.

Imagine if Steve Jobs listen to Wall Street and only worried about these metrics and not focus on great new products. Hell, the analysises are still fixated on the fact that Apple is not #1 PC manufacturer they still declaring apple is loosing there. Forget the fact Apple commands over 50% of the revenue $ of any of the competitors.

When companies only focus on these metrics, companies make bad decisions and people loose jobs. Most companies are in business to make products and sell them they are not in business to manage metrics. When Companies do like Apple has done and tell Wall Street to go F-itself an focus on what is important to them and their customer then they will be successful.

I bet any of you who work for a publicly traded company have stories where the company began doing things because Wall Street said some metric was out of whack. Here is just one of mine, I have plenty of these.

I worked for a very successful Start-up company in the 90's and our stock was flat line for a couple of quarters and the reason being, Mutual Fund Managers and Wall Street Analyses were telling the founders they could not recommend or buy our stock because our inventories turns were too low. Next thing we all knew the big new goal in the company was to increase inventories turns. Forget the fact the reason we were successful was we could fill customer orders in 4 to 6 weeks or they would ship out in a week, when our competitors were quoting 12 to 14 weeks, next thing you knew our lead times were increasing and customer were not happy. But Wall Street was happy since our inventory turns were on the increase, That did not last too long since they now complained about AP and Receivables days, forget the fact the company was sitting on loads of money. We have a new company goal to began paying supplier later and later which made it harder and harder to get parts, and customers did not like the fact we were chasing them to pay the bill exact on x days or else we would not ship them a new product. When this happen company focus changed from developing new products to see how we can meet Wall Street's expectations.

Eventually the lack or focus on new innovated product and meeting customer expectations and the continual layoffs to meet earning numbers destroyed the company. Yeah it was interesting when the People running the company realize they was no way they could meet Wall Street's expectations buy delaying payment and forcing customer to pay sooner they laid people off. Every time a layoff was announce the stock value went up, interesting how that works.

[ragingclue]

I've been keeping myself aware of the situation and the supposed causes behind it. Seems like some people actually do believe they're fighting for something and others just want to do what hipsters are supposed to do, which is to be conformally non-conformist and protest the shit out of everyone who showers and cares to get a real job. Oh well, it is what it is and I don't have a problem with people voicing their opinion, whether I agree or not.

It didn't start pissing me off until we took CPD off the streets to arrest 175 people on Saturday night. Yeah that's awesome, because CPD obviously doesn't have anything better to do...

How about we stop electing dildos into office? How about holding policymakers responsible by not blindly voting under a banner with some dumbass animal on it? How about educating ourselves on the issues at hand and the candidates we have to choose from, so we're actually voting for the person we believe will make this country a better place? How about educating ourselves on what we can do to not be part of the problem, and maybe even be part of the solution? I'm tired of having to vote for the lesser jackass just because I don't want the "other guy" in office. I'm tired of the blame game, I'd rather start playing the "just fucking fix it" game.

The problem with this country is blind allegiance to political parties, not Wall Street. Fuck Democrats and Republicans; I'm tired of the bullshit childish games that keep us from ever actually getting anything done. Career politicians need to go die in a fire.

[Gladius]

Originally Posted by cmk227

You must be a liberal.

Classic. Revert to calling names instead of making a sound argument.

http://www.imperial.networkofcare.or...id=2631&cat=40

Originally Posted by txz4

its the gov's fault for allowing that. The corporation is entitled to to what it will within the confines of law.

Exactly. The government allows it; and is influenced by and lobbied by companies that promise to bring jobs and improve the economy; instead they are rewarded for doing things that don't help the overall US economy. This is the core problem - the corporation exists for its own benefit, to the detriment of everything else. A civilization won't survive when its members only care for themselves. I want the US and its capitalism to survive, be healthy and thrive, not die out.

Originally Posted by scollins

And what companies are those? Or is that some bullshit sound bite you read on Facebook, some random blog, or a sign at a protest? I'm guessing you have no facts to support that assertion.....

Here you go:
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2011...s_avoidin.html

By example, Boeing laid off 1100 people in January alone. Goldman-Sachs has threatened multiple layoffs. Google any of those companies on that list + "layoffs."

It's not so much that they aren't creating jobs (there may be many reasons for that) it's that they are hoarding cash and paying huge bonuses when the taxpayer is insuring the risks that they take, with no perceived return on that investment. The Taxpayers (read: YOU) take the risk, and in return you get nothing from them.

Originally Posted by scollins

We are in effect, all insane.

On this, I agree with you.

[scollins]

Originally Posted by Gladius

Here you go:
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2011...s_avoidin.html

By example, Boeing laid off 1100 people in January alone. Goldman-Sachs has threatened multiple layoffs. Google any of those companies on that list + "layoffs."

So I was right, you quoted a blog that is full of inaccuracies, incorrect figures and outright lies. And I'll prove it to you. Let's look at the biggest, baddest evil corporation on that list, Exxon.

First off, a "refund" from the IRS doesn't mean you didn't pay any taxes. It means you OVERPAID your taxes. I got a refund of $2,000 for 2010, does that mean I didn't pay income taxes? Fuck no, I had a hefty tax bill, but I overpaid it by $2,000 so the IRS gave me my change.

Blog says:
"The Bernie Sanders Ten, per release....

1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings."

Here is Exxon's 2009 SEC Filing: http://investing.businessweek.com/re...&formType=10-K

Let's go straight to the consolidated Financial Statement on Page 62.

It has the following:
Total Revenue from all sources: $310,586MM (that's $310 Billion.)
Total Income before Income Taxes: $34,777MM (that's $34.7 Billion, or 11.2% of total Revenue) **Blog says $19 Billion, first mistake
Income Taxes: $15,119MM (that's $15.1 Billion.) **Blog says ZERO, second mistake.

Wait, what? That blog said that Exxon not only paid NO income taxes, they got money back from the government. Last time I checked, $15.1 Billion is way more than ZERO. As a matter of fact, it looks like Exxon paid 43.5% of its income in income taxes! Holy shit!!! So likely, they OVERPAID their taxes and got a refund from the IRS for that overpayment. That doesn't mean they didn't pay taxes, which should be clearly evident from the numbers.

Now, where did the blog get the $19 billion in profit figure? Oh yeah, that is on the balance sheet, called "Net income attributable to ExxonMobil", which is $19,280MM, or $19 billion. That's how much they made AFTER PAYING THEIR $15.1 BILLION INCOME TAX BILL!!!! $35 Billion minus $15 Billion = $19 Billion (rounded figures.)

It's all right there, in plain black and white. Exxon paid a huge tax bill for 2009, not zero.


So again, you are quoting "facts" from a blog that doesn't even know how to read a simple fucking financial statement. So how many others out there believe that Exxon didn't pay income taxes because of this demonstrably incorrect blog? I'm guessing a lot.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

The problem with this country is blind allegiance to political parties, not Wall Street. Fuck Democrats and Republicans; I'm tired of the bullshit childish games that keep us from ever actually getting anything done.

This times infinity.

My biggest gripe with politics is that it essentially rules out any independant thinking. It's become a package deal and anyone who votes outside of that set box of mandatory views can pretty much kiss their political career goodbye. If I want lower taxes it means I also want to ban gay marriage and stem cell research?! What the fuck?

[txz4]

Originally Posted by scollins

So I was right, you quoted a blog that is full of inaccuracies, incorrect figures and outright lies. And I'll prove it to you. Let's look at the biggest, baddest evil corporation on that list, Exxon.

First off, a "refund" from the IRS doesn't mean you didn't pay any taxes. It means you OVERPAID your taxes. I got a refund of $2,000 for 2010, does that mean I didn't pay income taxes? Fuck no, I had a hefty tax bill, but I overpaid it by $2,000 so the IRS gave me my change.

Blog says:
"The Bernie Sanders Ten, per release....

1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings."

Here is Exxon's 2009 SEC Filing: http://investing.businessweek.com/re...&formType=10-K

Let's go straight to the consolidated Financial Statement on Page 62.

It has the following:
Total Revenue from all sources: $310,586MM (that's $310 Billion.)
Total Income before Income Taxes: $34,777MM (that's $34.7 Billion, or 11.2% of total Revenue) **Blog says $19 Billion, first mistake
Income Taxes: $15,119MM (that's $15.1 Billion.) **Blog says ZERO, second mistake.

Wait, what? That blog said that Exxon not only paid NO income taxes, they got money back from the government. Last time I checked, $15.1 Billion is way more than ZERO. As a matter of fact, it looks like Exxon paid 43.5% of its income in income taxes! Holy shit!!! So likely, they OVERPAID their taxes and got a refund from the IRS for that overpayment. That doesn't mean they didn't pay taxes, which should be clearly evident from the numbers.

Now, where did the blog get the $19 billion in profit figure? Oh yeah, that is on the balance sheet, called "Net income attributable to ExxonMobil", which is $19,280MM, or $19 billion. That's how much they made AFTER PAYING THEIR $15.1 BILLION INCOME TAX BILL!!!! $35 Billion minus $15 Billion = $19 Billion (rounded figures.)

It's all right there, in plain black and white. Exxon paid a huge tax bill for 2009, not zero.


So again, you are quoting "facts" from a blog that doesn't even know how to read a simple fucking financial statement. So how many others out there believe that Exxon didn't pay income taxes because of this demonstrably incorrect blog? I'm guessing a lot.

AHAHAH literally did this same thing with a friend 2 weeks ago. Quoting some B.S. "documentary" he said that they didn't pay taxes, went about it the same way as you. If your not completely incompetent its not too hard to disprove any of these fools

[11Series]

Originally Posted by BMWinNorthdakota

No.. Screw the tard bag who sits on the corner of a street bitching about how shitty his life is and hasn't taken any real effort towards improving it.

Go watch that old movie "The Pursuit of Happiness" if you want to know the true meaning of effort and drive.


Screw the rich guy that worked his ass off to make everything hes ever had, right?

"Because he has money and he ought to help the people who haven't attained such success"- Socialism at it's finest.

I guess you didn't pay attention during "The Pursuit of Happyness". While 1 man achieved his dreams, a whole room full of other folks saw their dreams crushed when their internship and all their hard work was a dead end. That's the REAL world. That whole room full of interns all worked hard as hell, and in the end there was only 1 position.

You remind me of the baseball announcer who was commenting on how much heart a team who won the game had. He said that if more teams played with that much heart, there would be more winning teams out there.

I laughed my ass off. Because even if every single team played with more heart, there would be exactly as many winning and losing teams, because there always has to be a losing team. Saying their would be more winning teams is the same as saying if everyone worked hard, everyone would have sweet jobs and get rich. Wrong. There will always be a fairly static percent of sweet jobs that make people rich, and a fairly static percent of sh!t jobs that will never make anyone rich. If everyone had Master's degrees, someone would still have to be the janitor.

This whole attitude that if everyone worked hard, everyone would be rich and would have no reason to complain is ignorant.

[M3Bahn]

Originally Posted by txz4

its the gov's fault for allowing that. The corporation is entitled to to what it will within the confines of law. Another thing thats always upset me is the B.S. idea of "creating jobs" you dont create jobs, if there is a need then the need will be filled, if not, than there is nothing to be filled I.E. no job. You dont simply create a job because someone needs the job, you create a job if it serves your best interest. Not trying to be cold but thats life. These firms should never have been bailed out if people weren't happy with the fact that once given the money its up to the corps to do what they will with it...yet again, not the govs place to dictate what these people do with the money after they already gave it to them, before yes absolutely, after...come on. On the topic of these occupiers its very clear that they have no real knowledge of whats actually going on and are just unhappy with the system as they "see it" at the end of the day they would prefer communism or socialism or at least what they think they are.

As someone above said, just read literally any Ayn Rand or for that matter: brace new world, 1984, Fahrenheit 451.... list goes on. Any of these highlights what they're dreams will lead to.

/rant

The corporations dictate what the government should do to through lobbyists.

[matthewk]

ugh...

[11Series]

Originally Posted by ChuckBMW3

Wrong. I haven't worked this hard in life to finance someone who is A. too lazy to go get a job B. perfectly content with sponging off of welfare, SS, "disability" and every other government entitlement program out there that I pay for C. and finally, it's shocking to see so many people wanting to support these morons. I have no problem helping out those less fortunate and those that ACTUALLY need help, but I will not condone handouts/govt handouts just bc someone don't "feel" like working. And btw, the "I can't find a job" excuse is bull $hit. If you wanted a job badly enough, you can certainly find one.

Thanks you made your position so much clearer, and telling us exactly which of your fellow Americans you want to tell to screw off as long as you've got yours.


What is bullsh!t is your silly idea that there could ever be 100% employment in a Free Market employment model. The economic model where everyone gets a job just because they want one is called Communism. There will ALWAYS be unemployment in every Free Market employment system. Unemployment is a basic REQUIREMENT of our Free Market economic system.

It is also a rule set in concrete that there must be cycles of increased unemployment that follow Free Market economic cycles. This is just as strong and solid an economic rule as Supply v. Demand. So periods of increased unemployment is a basic REQUIREMENT of our Free Market economic system.

The difference between you and I, is that I personally recognize ALL the Free Market rules that come into play when I benefit from having a sweet-@ss job. And I understand that my wealth from the Free Market could never have happened without the entire Free Market system, with all of its good and bad parts. Without the unemployment that is required for the Free Market to work, none of us could benefit from a properly functioning Free Market.

You on the other hand, want all the upsides and benefits of our Free Market economy, but you want to pretend the downsides to our Free Market economy don't exist. You want to pretend that the number of jobs available is a function of how many people want to work, instead of the number of jobs available being a function of well-known, well-established Free Market rules of market cycles. I'm sorry you have such a small and limited understanding of how the Free Markets you have benefited from actually work.

[mact3333]

The bickering/arguing seen throughout society clearly shows "something" is wrong right now...this time it isnt about a typical recession type of "wrong"...doesnt matter if you're a demo, repub or libertarian/tea bagger, you know there is something happening in society which we havent seen in a long long time...its coming to a head.

The reason (imho), is the weight of crushing debt on societies shoulders...people have a hard time understanding and grasping why something doesnt feel right to them...to me, it is about debt and inflation...when debts get out of control by consumers and govt, usually, one of 2 things must happen...the debt holders either take a haircut or the borrowers have to pay back this debt...this is the only way to clear bad debt....with poor employment, debtors cannot pay most of this debt...and debt holders wont take haircuts because they are forcing govt to bail them out with overt or covert threats.

But with wallstreet/banks controlling govt, they are altering this cleansing process...when govt bails out banks and insurance/auto co's, they are disrupting the natural order of things...and I dont for one minute believe the whole system was going to collpase if Hank paulson didnt convince congress to open up the spigot...in a capitalistic society, you punish the stupid/weak and reward the smart/successful...by messing with this concept, the govt has essentially transfered this bad debt onto the tax payers as inflation...more govt debt means weak dollar and then the price of things we need to live off of goes up....this is a hidden tax on the people....so everytime Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, etc get the 100's billions, we are paying for it as money printing always creates inflation....and to say "they" paid us back with interest is ignorant...these banks got trillions not 100's billions as the govt claims...look at the Federal Reserve doc's, they will tell you everything....,many estimates are up to 15 TRILLION!, which equals our entire national debt.

This is why society is ready to burst at the seams...to label the wallstreet protesters as anything specific is silly cause they are a product of many differing ideologies and frustrations...their consistency is that they are voicing that this system isnt working for them anymore, nothing more nothing less.

They are expressing their 1st amendment rights...the media tries to portray them as lacking a clear message ...you have to remember that media is just an extension of corporate america...they are owned by Fox, Disney and GE...they have their own agendas.

My main point is this, the differing opinions on this thread is just an extension of a economic/political system that is failing...shake-ups will be coming whether you and I like it or not.

There is no perfect system but I will take a free mkt capitalistic society where govt remains small and diminished...while socialism has some merits, europe is showing they cannot afford socialism and it isnt sustainable...too much debt has a way of making capitalism and socialism look bad.

[carve]

Originally Posted by 11Series

I laughed my ass off. Because even if every single team played with more heart, there would be exactly as many winning and losing teams, because there always has to be a losing team. Saying their would be more winning teams is the same as saying if everyone worked hard, everyone would have sweet jobs and get rich. Wrong. There will always be a fairly static percent of sweet jobs that make people rich, and a fairly static percent of sh!t jobs that will never make anyone rich. If everyone had Master's degrees, someone would still have to be the janitor.

This whole attitude that if everyone worked hard, everyone would be rich and would have no reason to complain is ignorant.

Baseball is a zero-sum game. There are a finite number of games to win, and there'll be an equal number of winners and losers. Economics is different- the more everyone produces, the more everyone wins. It'd be like the baseball game, but you total the home runs for both teams. That's the beauty about division of labor. There will be a static % of sweet jobs and craps jobs? Huh? It seems to me the number of crap jobs (e.g. turning bolts on an assembly line, working in a sweat shop or meat packing plant, farming by hand, turning big rocks into little rocks, shoveling coal, etc.) has been declining for decades if not centuries, yet, downturns excepted, everyone is still employed- generally in jobs that are preferable and better paying than those. This is due to automation and efficiency improvements, which let every worker produce more. Since they're more efficient, there are two effects.

1) They're able to produce more goods and services for less money, increasing profits and their wages while making things more affordable for everyone buying those things
2) Fewer people are required for any given task, so those people are able to do something else in new industries, producing more NEW goods and services, increasing the quality of life for all (think about the things available today that weren't available, or were barely available, 100 years ago...telecom...computers/web design... cars...TV...movies...appliances... amazing medical technologies...etc.)



The increased productivity per worker is why even "poor" people in efficient countries like ours have cars, flat screen TV's, appliances, and enough food to get fat on.

Of course, a lot of the newer jobs are more difficult for a stupid person to do than smashing rocks, so this isn't always kind to the incompetent.


Now, I'm all for ending corruption. Corporations or individuals shouldn't be able to buy political favor or, worse yet, buy roadblocks for their competitors. You know the saying...power corrupts. I think the solution is to have a very simple, transparent tax code that is hard to hide loopholes in, and to give our politicians less power for them to abuse. Somehow I doubt these protestors think smaller government is the answer though. I'll bet they want to give more power to the very people who are abusing it.

I think the simplest solution would be to have ZERO corporate taxes and zero subsidies. You can't buy a loophole then. Corporations don't pay taxes anyway. It's just an expense for them and must be reflected in the prices they charge for their goods and services. One way they've found to be more profitable is buying political favor so they don't have to pay as many taxes, giving an unfair advantage over their competitors by leveraging the government's monopoly on violence. With zero corporate taxes there'd be no unfair advantage. Furthermore, there'd be no need to play shell games and hide profits and send jobs off shore. In fact, they'd have incentive to bring money and jobs back HERE. More money and more jobs means higher wages and less unemployment. Of course, our taxes would go up to fill the gap, but we'd be making more money and paying less for goods and services.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by Nym3pimp

Wall street firmS were buying junk loans repackaging them as aaa when they were doomed for disaster. Property taxes still havent gone down where i live its fucking insanse over ten thousand a year when the value dropped like 200-300k. The gov is at fault becase they are supposed to regulate the industry but i remember 580 credit scores going through the gov agency approved.

You are absolutely right about most of this post. Wall Street firms, banks, the entire mortgage industry actively solicited junk loans, then ratings companies lied about their risks.

But Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were privately owned companies when they were accepting those crappy loans, not part of the gov't. Or was there some gov't agency that was in the business of approving bank loans that the rest of us don't know about?

[infinitekidM2C]

There's really no danger of EVERYONE working hard. Let's argue within the confines of reality.

Everyone knows there are improvements to be made in our econ system such as closing tax loopholes and creating more incentives to keep jobs here, and if that's all these protesters are trying to say then fine, i agree. But i get the impression some of them are just angry at the accumulation of wealth, capitalism and corporations (oh those evil successful companies!).

[11Series]

Originally Posted by carve

Baseball is a zero-sum game. There are a finite number of games to win, and there'll be an equal number of winners and losers. Economics is different- the more everyone produces, the more everyone wins. .

You are nit-picking my analogy and ignoring my point.

There are, and will always be a certain number of people who must be unemployed and underemployed for our Free Market economic system to exist.

The number of people who are unemployed and underemployed is a function of economic cycles that are an integral part of our Free Market system.

Pretending that if people just tried harder, or clicked their heels, or all clapped in unison, that there would magically be more jobs is magical thinking. The same way that thinking there could be more winning teams is magical thinking.

[mact3333]

to say that Fannie and Freddie was a completely private company is wrong...sure they were a publically traded company but how many public co's have the fiscal backing of the US govt?...they were called (GSE)govt sponsored entities for a reason...and the actions the US govt took to bail them proves this.

Clinton and Greenspan played a big role in why the mortgage industry felt compelled to take these dumb risks...it was encouraged by the govt.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by infinitekid2002

There's really no danger of EVERYONE working hard. Let's argue within the confines of reality.

Everyone knows there are improvements to be made in our econ system such as closing tax loopholes and creating more incentives to keep jobs here, and if that's all these protesters are trying to say then fine, i agree. But i get the impression some of them are just angry at the accumulation of wealth, capitalism and corporations (oh those evil successful companies!).

Quite a few are angry and don't have all the answers as to how to fix every single issue. They know they are being gang-raped, and they just want it to stop.

I don't think they should be expected to shut up and stay silent until they can name of each and every person raping them, and to explicitly name every object/piece of anatomy being shoved up each individual orifice. A simple "stop" is enough.

If anyone thinks everything is just fine, and nobody has any reason to complain, they are completely out of touch with reality.

[Undertow]

I drive an $80k convertible and I am not the 99%. I'm the 1%. I worked my ass off to get here and I'm loving it.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by m3inwaiting

I drive an $80k convertible and I am not the 99%. I'm the 1%. I worked my ass off to get here and I'm loving it.

Heck, who said elitism is dead?

Thanks for the Marie Antoinette style sympathy for the 99% of everyone else. Heck, who could ever be offended by this sort of clueless self-aggrandizing narcissism, and be driven to protest on the streets? Only fools, right?

[mact3333]

Originally Posted by m3inwaiting

I drive an $80k convertible and I am not the 99%. I'm the 1%. I worked my ass off to get here and I'm loving it.

I thought you were in the 5% not the 1% but since you have extended Novillo leather, you are clearly in the 0.5%...I will pay you 1.00 if you yell what you just announced on here as you drive in your e93 M3 past the wallstreet protesters...would have my video camera ready...

[11Series]

Originally Posted by carve

Now, I'm all for ending corruption. Corporations or individuals shouldn't be able to buy political favor or, worse yet, buy roadblocks for their competitors. You know the saying...power corrupts.

Welcome to the 99%, and to the Occupy Wall Street movement.

The fact that you may have different proposed solutions to the same problems that others identify with, is exactly why the movement doesn't endorse one particular piece of legislation or one candidate. It is a movement to identify a over-arching problem, and to force those in power to act to fix it.

If you can fix corruption, do it.

[carve]

Originally Posted by 11Series

You are nit-picking my analogy and ignoring my point.

There are, and will always be a certain number of people who must be unemployed and underemployed for our Free Market economic system to exist.

The number of people who are unemployed and underemployed is a function of economic cycles that are an integral part of our Free Market system.

Pretending that if people just tried harder, or clicked their heels, or all clapped in unison, that there would magically be more jobs is magical thinking. The same way that thinking there could be more winning teams is magical thinking.

It was a critical flaw in your analogy. I awknowledged that it's tough for the stupid to find work even when times are good. Right now a lot of smart people are out of work, too.

Fannie and Freddie were created SPECIFICALLY to make bad, high-risk loans backed by the government. The thing is...fannie and freddie don't take on the risk...the taxpayer does. Another example of capitalising the profits and socializing the risk. To make matter worse, all sorts of fair housing laws came out coercing the banks into giving the loans. Then the fed sent interest rates through the floor by creating money out of nothing. Then, a bunch of idiots on Wall Street put a AAA rating on them and made these mortgage backed securities, and when they failed, instead of going under, the government sent over ANOTHER fat wad of taxpayer money.

The government shouldn't have manipulated the market. ALL of this, except making the mortgage backed securities, is the government's fault.