[beachBmmr]

Originally Posted by 3798j

Nope...this happened.

Things deviated from the norm when Masi informed teams: "Lapped cars will not be allowed to overtake."

"That decision meant that, if the race restarted, then Max Verstappen on his fresh soft tyres would need to clear five backmarkers before he could have a shot at snatching the lead, and with it the title, from Lewis Hamilton.

But shortly after a delayed radio message was played from Red Bull boss Christian Horner to Masi, urging him to clear the backmarkers, convention was again broken as on the penultimate lap only a select few cars were told to unlap themselve.

Then, to further compound the confusion, Masi elected to restart the race at the end of that same lap, and not at the end of the following lap as the sporting regulations dictate.

With Verstappen on fresh softs, and Hamilton on well-used hards, it was obvious which man held the clear advantage once battle resumed.

The U-turn on the backmarkers being allowed to unlap themselves, the decision to then only let a few move forward, and then the rushed restart, all came together to leave F1, the FIA and Masi facing a barrage of criticism over what happened.

Ultimately, the circumstances meant Masi played God in being the man who decided which way the championship went, as it depended entirely on that restart call."

Masi put his hand on the scale for sure.. Leaving RBR in a much better position at the conclusion of the SC than they started at the beginning of it, which was an (un) intended consequence. I suppose deciding the championship under yellow was a worse option to him. Although anyone watching that race knew that barring any BS it had been clear since lap1 and every lap until 58. The Mercedes was untouchable all day.

I was cheering for Max all season, but this was not a clean win, and Im sure he knows it.

Perhaps the rules should be amended that if a Safety car is required within the last 10 laps of the race, the red flag is automatically thrown, with no tire change permitted to ensure the integrity of the race is maintained until the end.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by Onesie

When a third party interferes in fate, it isn't karma.

So, you believe in the abstract like fate but not karma

Bro, your screen name should be "Billy Madison" instead of "Onesie." Your complaints, thoughts & posts here are all equally worthless. You are soon to have the honor of being the only person on my ignore list

[M5Rick]

[QUOTE=///M Power-Belgium;28356090]From the land of the rising (HONDA) sun ...

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by beachBmmr

Masi put his hand on the scale for sure.. Leaving RBR in a much better position at the conclusion of the SC than they started at the beginning of it, which was an (un) intended consequence. I suppose deciding the championship under yellow was a worse option to him. Although anyone watching that race knew that barring any BS it had been clear since lap1 and every lap until 58. The Mercedes was untouchable all day.

I was cheering for Max all season, but this was not a clean win, and Im sure he knows it.

Perhaps the rules should be amended that if a Safety car is required within the last 10 laps of the race, the red flag is automatically thrown, with no tire change permitted to ensure the integrity of the race is maintained until the end.

That could create opportunities for convenient retirements. In the end there is no perfect rule.

Merc is looking for someone to blame and masi should have let the lapped cars through a lap earlier but Merc is grasping at straws.

A race director should have flexibility to adjusts to the facts and circumstances of the instance, if there are concerns of manipulation you probably don’t have the correct person for the job.

Ferrari is the real aggrieved party in this case, thankfully Merc will carry the torch for them.

Hammy v Max was awesome to watch because the emotional arc over the season.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Bubbles

Ferrari is the real aggrieved party in this case,

100% true.
But we haven't heard from ferrari because I presume they probably understand that SAI didn't have a realistic chance to overtake VER or HAM.
Having let all the lapped cars pass instead of just those 4 makes no difference for the VER vs. HAM situation.
The race director wants to see HAM/VER race as much as possible.
They/he made that clear in the previous race when he offered RB a deal at the code red for VER to give up his 1st position to drop back behind HAM, because that would give VER a pardon for potentially recieving an penalty from the stewards (possibly a 5 or 10sec penalty) and the race director said literally that he preferred to see them race as much as possible without intervention from rules.
So in that light it also might be logical that Masi preferred to have the season finished at racing pace instead of under safetycar.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by Bubbles

The Fall Guy.

A red flag would have been appropriate. Masi told drivers before the race a shunt in Latifi Corner would not cause a red flag, rather a safety car.

Maybe hubris got the best of him.


Who knows.

The only alternative course that holds any water to me.

The immediate argument against being, red flags are intended for unsafe track conditions. When a race must be suspended.

Are we now throwing red flags for straightforward crash cleanups if there's a perceived team strategy/tire disadvantage at the front of the race? Even after the frontrunners have been given plenty of chance to choose and execute their race ending strategies?

Interesting precedent.

Also, who was it last week who strongly objected to a red flag when there actually was substantial barrier repair? Trying to think...

But I would have been ok with either course, they both involved racing.

Along with the dastardly Masi, I wonder if the Latifi crash clean up workers are in hiding. Seems they were almost too efficient and wearing... ORANGE.

[EnVe46]

I think what some are protesting is the indecisiveness on Masi. There doesn't seem very much consistent with his decisions all year which make it seem like there's an agenda, even if there isn't. See my other comment, I even feel that way.

It took me a few years to realize but perception is reality. We all live in each others perceived reality, but I think that's hard for some to realize. We can only make assumptions on Masis reality in this situation... If he was following the rules, some things in his decisions should have been different. If, If, If...

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by forza1976

I was literally shaking, haven't felt that for F1 since MSC and his various championships. What a day!

[Bubbles]

Toto likely worked more this season than all previous seasons combined, so we can all appreciate his current emotional state.

Same could be said for Hammy

Seeing this side of Toto, is it possible that Hammy mirrors Toto’s behaviors and emotions?

Toto played the ranting victim, but Hammy had space away from Toto after the race and he acted with class and dignity.

Maybe Toto has too much influence on hammy’s reactions to events, similar to bottas believing that constant pressure of 1 year deals made him faster.

Maybe it’s Toto.

[///M Power-Belgium]

[QUOTE=M5Rick;28356469]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

From the land of the rising (HONDA) sun ...

The Wolf thinks about the future of his team...

[M3WC]

I am still trying to figure stewards decision on the lap 1 incident. That call or none call could have been the championship. Nevermind the decision under yellow and last lap on track battle.

Congrats to Max. Max was the quicker driver this year, 10 wins to Lewis 8 and 10 pole positions to Lewis 5. Most podiums and laps lead.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by EnVe46

I think what some are protesting is the indecisiveness on Masi. There doesn't seem very much consistent with his decisions all year which make it seem like there's an agenda, even if there isn't. See my other comment, I even feel that way.

It took me a few years to realize but perception is reality. We all live in each others perceived reality, but I think that's hard for some to realize. We can only make assumptions on Masis reality in this situation... If he was following the rules, some things in his decisions should have been different. If, If, If...

On the perception is reality point, Masi's decision to not allow unlapped cars through was presented (on Sky) as a final decision, in effect for the remainder of the race.

Listening to Horner's exchange with him, that's not what it sounded like at all. Sounded like he was delaying the unlapped cars process until the crash clean up had progressed.

The perception of agenda & indecisiveness emanates from the idea that he changed his mind on a final decision. Fan outrage and conspiracy follow from there.

Reality could be as simple as he was keeping an eye on the crash cleanup with the intention of unlapping cars as soon as he felt it was safe to do so. Sure sounded like that was his position on the radio with Horner.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

The only alternative course that holds any water to me.

The immediate argument against being, red flags are intended for unsafe track conditions. When a race must be suspended.

Are we now throwing red flags for straightforward crash cleanups if there's a perceived team strategy/tire disadvantage at the front of the race? Even after the frontrunners have been given plenty of chance to choose and execute their race ending strategies?

Interesting precedent.

Also, who was it last week who strongly objected to a red flag when there actually was substantial barrier repair? Trying to think...

But I would have been ok with either course, they both involved racing.

Along with the dastardly Masi, I wonder if the Latifi crash clean up workers are in hiding. Seems they were almost too efficient and wearing... ORANGE.

Fair point, Merc objected to the red flag in Saudi. Merc wanted it to end under safety car.

Hammy fans got a massive shot of what Max fans were feeling during the race, except all at once without the benefit of 90 mins to accept the inevitable result. Not fun.

[SoftShoe]

I have no horse in this race..

From the outside, that ending sure looks bullsh!tty.

[MontyB1]

I wonder if Mercedes are in conversation with the FIA to say we will drop the appeal if you remove Michael Masi. Let’s be honest he has had a multitude of issues this season that have affected many drivers.

There are occasions guidance hasn’t been clear, decisions on incidents, negotiations that even team principles have said are unprecedented. He has lost the respect of the teams and the fans and that’s damaging the sport.

Remove him and everyone move on. Id be shocked if that wasn’t a potential reaction to this.

[3798j]

Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff, says he's concerned about "the further damage it could cause to Formula One," if the team continues its challenge.
It's difficult to believe how more damage could occur. By not following FIA rules (even if it was done in the name of giving the fringe some viewing closure), the sports' integrity will (going forward) always be suspect and any WDC from this one on will be viewed with skepticism.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

From @andrewbensonf1 --

"Unless clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap." There was no lap in between

However, as cited by the race director, 15.3 --

"Article 15.3 allows the Race Director to control the use of the safety car, which in our determination includes its deployment and withdrawal.

Toto wanted that extra lap between the last lapped car passing the leader. The race director wanted to go racing and per the previous agreement of the teams, achieve the "highly desirable" outcome of a green flag conclusion, i.e., not under a safety car.

+1

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by 3798j

Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff, says he's concerned about "the further damage it could cause to Formula One," if the team continues its challenge.
It's difficult to believe how more damage could occur. By not following FIA rules (even if it was done in the name of giving the fringe some viewing closure), the sports' integrity will (going forward) always be suspect and any WDC from this one on will be viewed with skepticism.

Just watch, the sport will go on with this drama boosting ratings.

I bet next season of Drive to Survive will have its best ratings on Netflix.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

You mean all of it makes perfect sense. It's an impartial analysis, accurate portrayal of events, team strategy, and race director decisions. I'd be promoting the same regardless of outcome.

Your position was addressed at the start of the 2nd paragraph. Nothing can counteract FIA conspiracy theory and suspicions of race director favoritism.



Those rules being --

All lapped cars are allowed to unlap themselves. As Red Bull rightly argued, the 3 additional cars passing by wouldn't have made any difference. Distraction.

After the final car unlaps itself, there should be an additional lap under safety car. Stronger argument, but that regulation is overruled by 15.3, which gives the race director discretion on safety car deployment and withdrawal.

With the track cleared and ready to race, one lap to go for the WDC, the race director exercised that safety car discretion and it was the right call. 1-2 running order and tire condition was irrelevant to the decision to go motor racing.

You guys cannot seem to disassociate a personally unsatisfactory outcome from the validity of real-time race director decisions, which favored racing, and achieved what both teams strongly expressed was their preference for a green flag finish. The race director didn't have to artificially manufacture that conclusion, it was there for the taking and he jumped on it.

On point. The decision had not a thing to do with who was or wasn't ahead. Rule 15.3 supercedes rule 48.12/13 which everyone seems to only be quoting. 15.3 give authority for race director to do whatever he wants with the safety car and all teams agreed they wanted green light racing to supersede so he carried out their wishes.
Nothing was manufactured, it just happened to be the scenario that presented itself and Merc got caught with their pants down not having pitted Ham for tires, and Toto couldn't manipulate the race director to secure a win (which is what he absolutely tried to do against the decision to race that all teams made as aforementioned).

[M5Rick]

[QUOTE=///M Power-Belgium;28356641]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

The Wolf thinks about the future of his team...

Like Caesar who thought he was untouchable the giant that was Toto has the first cracks appearing, like Villeneuve used to say 'stuff happens'

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

On point. The decision had not a thing to do with who was or wasn't ahead. Rule 15.3 supercedes rule 48.12/13 which everyone seems to only be quoting. 15.3 give authority for race director to do whatever he wants with the safety car and all teams agreed they wanted green light racing to supersede so he carried out their wishes.
Nothing was manufactured, it just happened to be the scenario that presented itself and Merc got caught with their pants down not having pitted Ham for tires, and Toto couldn't manipulate the race director to secure a win (which is what he absolutely tried to do against the decision to race that all teams made as aforementioned).

Laws and rules are rarely completely clear and this isn’t either. Unless it’s challenged and a independent judge opines on it then it will never be clear.

There is clearly an argument to say that rule isn’t there to cover this situation and it’s up to the lawyers to layout that position. If they push that they used a very liberal interpretation of the rules that they have defended themselves with to enhance or protect their product, being F1 there is certainly an argument to be made.

[///M Power-Belgium]

[QUOTE=M5Rick;28356785]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Like Caesar who thought he was untouchable the giant that was Toto has the first cracks appearing, like Villeneuve used to say 'stuff happens'

Yeah . And in 2022 number '33 will be vanished and number '1 will rise !
Will have then to change my avatar ..

=> https://nl.motorsport.com/f1/news/ma...ule-1/6770559/