[DoctoRx]

Originally Posted by gonzo

With that said, to think for one second that police want to kill is beyond absurd.

My cousin had a bad breakup with his ex fiance some years past. Shortly following, one of the local officers got into a bit of trouble for offering to 'accidentally' cause his death in the line of duty after they broke off their engagement. I can't swear to the extent of what charges were filed though since he was thankfully caught before anything happened.

[SunnyD]

Originally Posted by DoctoRx

My cousin had a bad breakup with his ex fiance some years past. Shortly following, one of the local officers got into a bit of trouble for offering to 'accidentally' cause his death in the line of duty after they broke off their engagement. I can't swear to the extent of what charges were filed though since he was thankfully caught before anything happened.

But you can't tell me that one example is the norm.

[BMW F22]

Originally Posted by PINeely

What people forget is that if I'm a cop and someone goes for my gun and hits me in my car, and I'm assuming he would have killed me had he actually gotten the gun, I now have to wonder what he might do to anyone who gets in his way while he's trying to run away from me. Semi-irrelevant point though because Brown was shot from the front.

I thought the same thing. Assuming (big IF here), he was on a rampage, he could have hurt or killed others. I don't know though, this whole situation is out of wack. There was a fatal shooting a while back involving an officer who thought he drew his taser but instead drew his weapon and killed a black kid. That caused an uproar too. Both of these situations look similar.

[Whostheboss]

Originally Posted by Devious21

This happens all the time...

Are you implying that you are never aware of violent incidents that occur until there's a riot about it? Did you not hear about the Zimmerman incident until the post trial riots?

You make the point that peaceful protests are ineffective. How effective are the riots? I don't think you can win with that line of reasoning. Also, your disdain for the thugs that will "mess it all up" is tempered by the fact that you agree with what they are doing.

Yes, you can change people's minds with peaceful protests, speeches, reason and argument. But it's EASIER to stir shit up, work up people's emotions and allow them to blow off steam at other people's expense.

That does not make it morally right and/or effective.

My point is gonna be hard for me to get across. What i'm trying to say is that, it appears that violent protesting is the quickest way to get attention.
Like as i said, i'm all for peaceful protesting but for those who sometimes protest violently, i feel their pain. When a group of people have had enough bullshit, they retaliate with a violent rally.

But in Ferguson's case, it was a peaceful protest, it did get wild at times but stupid out of state thugs came in and turned it really violent.

Originally Posted by PINeely

The entire gay rights movement has been accomplished with peaceful protests, despite the fact that gay men and women have been violently murdered for their sexuality. I agree with the second part 100% though. The entire community of Ferguson isn't involved in the crimes, just a few dozen people. As you pointed out it was discovered after the first round of protests that most of those engaging in looting were from towns other than Ferguson.





I don't buy it that cops want to kill people. I'm sure that one or two do, but I'd put the percentage of cops who wake up in the morning wanting to kill someone and willing to bait them into their car to do it, at the same percentage of non-cops who commit murders for the same reasons: very very VERY small. And the ones that do, I agree that they shouldn't be cops.

People can't stand to not know what happened. That's why MH370, Zimmerman trial and this grand jury decision are such big news, because there are these unknowns. The law functioned exactly as it should have here considering that the evidence did not propel the incident beyond a reasonable doubt.

So considering that we will never know exactly what happened, we are left to assume what happened based upon the evidence we do have. So either 1) an officer woke up that morning wanting to kill a black kid, picked one at random, lured him into his car and then gunned him down in the street because it's something to do. Or 2) an officer asked a person who was jaywalking in the middle of the road what they were doing and Brown, having just committed a strong-arm robbery, assumed that he was about to go to jail for a long time and was desperate for a way out. Occams razor.

Originally Posted by Joekerr

I do want to just highlight this statement because I don't understand it. So, in your example, there is a kid who was obviously intoxicated (read: drunk and disorderly) which is against the law. And your suggestion is that cops, who are supposed to enforce the law, are to AVOID these types of situations? Have I understood this correctly?


And so what should be done with these people "who they know will react violently"? Should they just be left alone to harm some innocent person when they ultimately do react? I'm A-ok with them stepping up to these types of people...no excuse for violent behavior and if these people want to cleanse themselves from the gene pool, well, by all means.

If someone is intoxicated, shouldn't the cops think "Ohh geez, here's some drunk asshole, let's put our guns away before we approach him because shit can get out of line, he's not thinking properly and can reach for our gun" But no they didn't. I don't train police officers, so i'm no expert on what the cops should do. I understand the cops don't know if the drunkard was armed or not. But these stories all come to me from my friends, i'm not making this shit up.

I kid you not: My coworker told me during his biking days, that a retired cop (now motorcycle instructor) told him that if it wasn't for the uniform, a lot of cops WILL be behind bars.


The first shop theft i ever witnessed as an employee of the store was by a police officer. I Was working at NEXTEL (now Sprint), i sold him a phone, as a police officer, we give them 15% on accessories. So i take out a bunch of phone cases and car chargers to sell to him. He wasn't happy with the 15%, he kept insisting that i give him a better deal. I told him that 15% is the company rule. He was like "c'maaaan dude, you can do better". If i were the store manager i could've given him more discount because he seemed like a cool cop. But unfortunately i'm not the manager. So when i turned around to grab something ( i don't remember)... this asshole shoves the car charger in his bag and acts like nothing happened. I caught him quick, he smiled and said "oh wait i thought it came free with the phone". No asshole, i already told you i can only take 15% off. He apologized and handed me back the charger.

So yea, that's my experience with cops.

I don't hate law enforcers. I have the out most respect for the Law of the land. But these thug cops are screwing it up for the honest good cops.

Your experience with police maybe positive but my experience with police is mainly negative which is why i have a negative point-of-view about police.

My views are not more important than anyone else on this forum, neither is anyone Else's point of view more important than mine.

I'm just your daily citizen confessing about my experiences with police on e90post.com

[DoctoRx]

Originally Posted by SunnyD

But you can't tell me that one example is the norm.

Honestly - I don't think ANY of these cases are the norm. I'm not 100% against cops. I'll say they do get a bad rap among the black community. There's MANY of my own race who do things to help add to that. But at the end of the day it's the actions of both ends that create animosity that needs to be changed.

[gonzo]

Let's see if a basic core problem shows here with the child in Cleveland and the air pistol.

Watch the over 6 minute video just released.
All alone 12 year old in the snow.
It seams everyone else was bored with his antics and had left the cameras view.
6 minutes of walking and sitting.
How many adults knew he was out waiving this air pistol around? Someone called the police...
More than enough for one to take 2 minutes to go out and take it from him and give him a freaking earful.
Instead, they did nothing and now a 12 year old who thought it would be cool to point an air pistol with the signal orange cap removed is in a morgue.

Today.
Look at all the adults in Cleveland, standing in the cold with signs for justice.

Something is seriously wrong with this picture.

[Devious21]

Originally Posted by Whostheboss

My point is gonna be hard for me to get across. What i'm trying to say is that, it appears that violent protesting is the quickest way to get attention.
Like as i said, i'm all for peaceful protesting but for those who sometimes protest violently, i feel their pain. When a group of people have had enough bullshit, they retaliate with a violent rally.

But in Ferguson's case, it was a peaceful protest, it did get wild at times but stupid out of state thugs came in and turned it really violent.

If you're saying that rioting is good at getting attention, then maybe we agree. Where we disagree is the premise that the Ferguson incident is in anyway, lacking in attention. It's being covered constantly in the media, with or without riots.

I believe they are ATTEMPTING to accomplish via rioting is change, not simply attention. I think they want to see officers punished when black people die, regardless of the details of the case. If a black person's blood is shed at white hands, they want to see them punished. Rioting doesn't give a point of view credibility. It's simply is a display of the level of anger behind said point of view.

If someone were to make the counter-argument that their position of "an eye for an eye, regardless of the details" is one of emotion and not logic, then rioting only reinforces that point. It also does so at the expense of an innocent third party.

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by Whostheboss

If someone is intoxicated, shouldn't the cops think "Ohh geez, here's some drunk asshole, let's put our guns away before we approach him because shit can get out of line, he's not thinking properly and can reach for our gun" But no they didn't. I don't train police officers, so i'm no expert on what the cops should do. I understand the cops don't know if the drunkard was armed or not. But these stories all come to me from my friends, i'm not making this shit up.

I kid you not: My coworker told me during his biking days, that a retired cop (now motorcycle instructor) told him that if it wasn't for the uniform, a lot of cops WILL be behind bars.


The first shop theft i ever witnessed as an employee of the store was by a police officer. I Was working at NEXTEL (now Sprint), i sold him a phone, as a police officer, we give them 15% on accessories. So i take out a bunch of phone cases and car chargers to sell to him. He wasn't happy with the 15%, he kept insisting that i give him a better deal. I told him that 15% is the company rule. He was like "c'maaaan dude, you can do better". If i were the store manager i could've given him more discount because he seemed like a cool cop. But unfortunately i'm not the manager. So when i turned around to grab something ( i don't remember)... this asshole shoves the car charger in his bag and acts like nothing happened. I caught him quick, he smiled and said "oh wait i thought it came free with the phone". No asshole, i already told you i can only take 15% off. He apologized and handed me back the charger.

So yea, that's my experience with cops.

I don't hate law enforcers. I have the out most respect for the Law of the land. But these thug cops are screwing it up for the honest good cops.

Your experience with police maybe positive but my experience with police is mainly negative which is why i have a negative point-of-view about police.

My views are not more important than anyone else on this forum, neither is anyone Else's point of view more important than mine.

I'm just your daily citizen confessing about my experiences with police on e90post.com

Bold part hit the nail on the head. It's no secret that SOME cops speed, drink and drive, shoplift, etc. They're people too and some people gravitate towards criminal behavior. Lots of cops probably feel empowered that they can flash a badge to get out of such a situation. However MOST cops won't break the law.

That said I do not think that your average cop, even one drunk with authority and who steals, harasses, etc., will take that feeling to such an extreme as to kill someone just because they think that they can. Stealing a phone charger and taking a life are two completely different things.

The most unjust experience I ever had with a cop was when I was pulled over on the way home from work. I was wearing my scrubs, my GF at the time was in the passenger seat and wearing her scrubs, and we were pulling out of the hospital parking garage. Cop demanded us out of the car saying that he smelled beer on my breath (it was 3pm and I was stone sober), tore my car apart even though I refused the search and then had the good grace to let us go with a warning: "just because you got away with it this time don't get any ideas." Point being, this cop was just an asshole. I think you and I are saying the same thing as far as that goes- some cops are dickheads and spoil public perception of the rest of the bunch. I just think it is a stretch to say that because some cops power trip, some cops steal, some cops are racist even; that a cop would want to kill people with their newfound power. There is a HUGE difference between stealing/harassing and killing, no matter who you are or think you are.

[mylydiamy]

I am usually the one who criticize the cops for abusing the power they are given. During my college years I drove black car (lower end of limo) in NY city. Many many times I got pulled over, verbally abused, issues undeserved tickets and twice had gun pointed at me bc I was an immigrant (99% of black car drivers were immigrant at that time).

But in Brown case, I believe he asked for it. To start with, he was no angel. He had just robbed a store. Also, he broke the ultimate rule : don't get in psychical altercations with cops!. It is a war that you can't win.

Also, these type of violent protest makes me respect certain people less. They are not protesting anything, they are just using it as an excuse to act violently.

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Let's see if a basic core problem shows here with the child in Cleveland and the air pistol.

Watch the over 6 minute video just released.
All alone 12 year old in the snow.
It seams everyone else was bored with his antics and had left the cameras view.
6 minutes of walking and sitting.
How many adults knew he was out waiving this air pistol around? Someone called the police...
More than enough for one to take 2 minutes to go out and take it from him and give him a freaking earful.
Instead, they did nothing and now a 12 year old who thought it would be cool to point an air pistol with the signal orange cap removed is in a morgue.

Today.
Look at all the adults in Cleveland, standing in the cold with signs for justice.

Something is seriously wrong with this picture.

I agree with the spirit of this post but just one bone to pick: with the orange safety tip removed, how could anyone but the 12yo know that the gun wasn't real? If the cops had known then they wouldn't have to shoot the kid dead and if other adults had known then they could have taken it from him. But with that safety tip removed for all the cops knew the kid was about to shoot them if he took it out and for all the other adults knew they were going to get shot if they tried to take the gun from him.

Responsibility in a case like this one only lies with the perp. He removed the tip, he waved the gun around, he pulled it out when the cops came to ask him what's up. I don't think that we can blame the adults when they didn't know that the gun was fake. Especially when they couldn't tell because the kid removed the orange tip to make it look real.

This is what is so exhausting about hearing headlines like "unarmed 12yo shot dead by police" when to literally anyone looking in from the outside, he appeared armed and was waving the gun around to boot. It's different if you get shot pulling out your wallet or something but if you're waving around an airsoft pistol with the safety orange tip removed? Give me a break.

[Devious21]

I'm going to modify your quote to prove a point.

Originally Posted by Whostheboss

The first shop theft i ever witnessed as an employee of the store was by a teacher. I Was working at NEXTEL (now Sprint), i sold him a phone, as a teacher, we give them 15% on accessories. So i take out a bunch of phone cases and car chargers to sell to him. He wasn't happy with the 15%, he kept insisting that i give him a better deal. I told him that 15% is the company rule. He was like "c'maaaan dude, you can do better". If i were the store manager i could've given him more discount because he seemed like a cool dude. But unfortunately i'm not the manager. So when i turned around to grab something ( i don't remember)... this asshole shoves the car charger in his bag and acts like nothing happened. I caught him quick, he smiled and said "oh wait i thought it came free with the phone". No asshole, i already told you i can only take 15% off. He apologized and handed me back the charger.

So yea, that's my experience with teachers.

Police officers are people. A small percentage of ALL people suck. I've met scumbags who are in the military. Wearing a uniform or being in a position of power doesn't suddenly make scumbags angels.

In all the mentioned jobs, military service, police works, teachers - we unfortunately always need more than we have, so we can't be as picky as we'd like.

[gonzo]

Really?
12 years old and adults were worried about approaching?
The caller even mentioned it may be a toy.
The dispatcher failed to tell the unit responding.
This is all from what I have read, anyway.

I think a basic point I was attempting to bring out was that they just let him be.
Not one of the children that tired of his actions passed along that "Tamir is acting stupid with a bb gun" ?
Please.

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Really?
12 years old and adults were worried about approaching?
The caller even mentioned it may be a toy.
The dispatcher failed to tell the unit responding.
This is all from what I have read, anyway.

I think a basic point I was attempting to bring out was that they just let him be.
Not one of the children that tired of his actions passed along that "Tamir is acting stupid with a bb gun" ?
Please.

I think that once a 12yo is at the point of standing in the street waving what appears to be a weapon around, that there have already been plenty of missed opportunities for adult intervention. At that point you have to react to the situation, which unfortunately means assuming that anything that has the potential to cause harm will be used to cause harm.

Could and should adults have intervened? They certainly COULD have, however I don't think you can fault them for putting their own safety above the kid's. They're not thinking "oh wow, if I don't do something then police officers are going to shoot this kid dead." They're thinking "oh wow, if I try to do something then there is a chance that I will be shot dead."

[Devious21]

I remember growing up, my mom would not let me play with ANY toy guns. She knew of someone who's child was shot by police for a toy gun. Possible it was the incident that started the orange tip law but not sure.

She was EXTREMELY CONCERNED with me ever having anything that resembled a gun in public. I wasn't allowed to have the same kinds of cap guns other kids had. Also, I am not black.

So yes, it's very troubling that not a single person took it upon themselves to let him know how dangerous waving around and pointing a toy gun at people walking down the street, was. If they didn't speak up because they thought it might be real, then I don't see why cops might have not have thought the same thing.

[kevinbahnz]

I just watched the video and it looks like the kid went for his gun that was tucked in his pants under his jacket.. You can see him pull up his jacket as he walked towards the cruiser. I don't know if there was any dialogue during the confrontation but it all happened really fast. It almost look like a drive by.

[BMW F22]

Originally Posted by Devious21

I remember growing up, my mom would not let me play with ANY toy guns. She knew of someone who's child was shot by police for a toy gun. Possible it was the incident that started the orange tip law but not sure.

She was EXTREMELY CONCERNED with me ever having anything that resembled a gun in public. I wasn't allowed to have the same kinds of cap guns other kids had. Also, I am not black.

So yes, it's very troubling that not a single person took it upon themselves to let him know how dangerous waving around and pointing a toy gun at people walking down the street, was. If they didn't speak up because they thought it might be real, then I don't see why cops might have not have thought the same thing.

My parents were the same way. My dad especially was very anti anything resembling a gun. When my brother graduated college years back, his friend gave him a very nice glock BB gun. My dad took it and threw it away. He had heard too many stories about people getting shot and killed because cops thought they were holding real guns. You also have families that own guns only to not lock them away properly. As a result, their kids got access to them and accidentally shot and killed others. There was a story a while back where a little kid accidentally shot and killed his little brother. Sad.

[UncleWede]

Today Browns mom claims there is no way her son would say fuck or pussy. I really wish a journalist would get her opinion on the video of her son pushing the store clerk around. Nope, he was a good boy.

Why does the Ferguson PD consist of 80+% white officers? How many black individuals even apply for the force?

If Wilson was so gun-happy, why was this the first time in 8 year law career that he discharged his weapon. He really woke up that day and thought I'm going over to the apartments and shooting me a black boy. Really???

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by PINeely

Bold part hit the nail on the head. It's no secret that SOME cops speed, drink and drive, shoplift, etc. They're people too and some people gravitate towards criminal behavior. Lots of cops probably feel empowered that they can flash a badge to get out of such a situation. However MOST cops won't break the law.

That said I do not think that your average cop, even one drunk with authority and who steals, harasses, etc., will take that feeling to such an extreme as to kill someone just because they think that they can. Stealing a phone charger and taking a life are two completely different things.

The most unjust experience I ever had with a cop was when I was pulled over on the way home from work. I was wearing my scrubs, my GF at the time was in the passenger seat and wearing her scrubs, and we were pulling out of the hospital parking garage. Cop demanded us out of the car saying that he smelled beer on my breath (it was 3pm and I was stone sober), tore my car apart even though I refused the search and then had the good grace to let us go with a warning: "just because you got away with it this time don't get any ideas." Point being, this cop was just an asshole. I think you and I are saying the same thing as far as that goes- some cops are dickheads and spoil public perception of the rest of the bunch. I just think it is a stretch to say that because some cops power trip, some cops steal, some cops are racist even; that a cop would want to kill people with their newfound power. There is a HUGE difference between stealing/harassing and killing, no matter who you are or think you are.

This.

My wife used to work in high end retail in Manhattan. Of all the customers who came in to the store, nobody would have the balls to press for a discount, until Gisele Bundchen came in. She did exactly the same thing the officer did and she makes a fuck load more than the officer does. I've never once heard my wife say "ugh, I hate fashion models - They're all thieves." Why? Because she knows that this one is an asshole and doing so would be profiling, exactly what many accuse cops of doing and what you are doing to cops.

It's also pretty sad that these exceedingly rare incidents make headline news when the real epidemic in the black community is black on black shootings. Chicago has dozens of shooting deaths in a given week and we know nothing about it. We are up to 372 this year yet all we read about is this case where a white cop justifiably shot a criminal in the midst of multiple crimes. If there's an epidemic of black deaths, it sure as shit isn't at the hands of the police.

Additionally, being drunk doesn't excuse you from your actions. If you act like a criminal when you're drunk, you'll be treated like a criminal, and rightfully so.

[Chrisruf911]

Originally Posted by DoctoRx

When I moved to Cleveland I was pulled over 13 times over a span of about 9 months. My vehicle was searched on one occasion, two occasions I had a weapon drawn on me. I even managed to get pulled over 3 times on the same street (busted headlight for which I actually had the bulb and receipt in my passenger seat from where I'd just bought it). How out of line was I to reach for my license and registration to get a gun drawn on me?

big deal. I'm white and had a gun drawn on me for reaching into my glovebox. I now know the errors of my ways and harbor no ill feelings toward the officer. You have to put yourself in the officer's shoes. Would you feel safe walking up to a car where someone could be digging for a weapon?

[secretsquirrel]

There have been a lot of opinions expressed in this thread. Many I agree with and some I don't, but thats the nature of discussion. Thanks for keeping this civilized guys.

At the heart of the matter for me is the fact that many eye witnesses said that Brown had his hands up and he was still killed. You see it as a reaction when the two guys (white guys) motion that he had his hands in the air and he was shot. We can talk about what Brown did or didn't do all day, but an unarmed man who is surrendering should never be shot.

[DoctoRx]

Originally Posted by Chrisruf911

big deal. I'm white and had a gun drawn on me for reaching into my glovebox. I now know the errors of my ways and harbor no ill feelings toward the officer. You have to put yourself in the officer's shoes. Would you feel safe walking up to a car where someone could be digging for a weapon?

In this case it wasn't while walking up to the car, it was after having been asked for my license and registration. I don't harbor any ill feelings either, I was just making the statement that shit like that happens all the time.

[328XIdiot]

The bar to be a police officer should be extremely high. The pay should fall in line. At the same time, we should expect precision in their words, actions and trigger finger.