[tuned2ride]

My last illusions in regard to BMW's reliability are gone with my 2007 85K miles 3-series. It shouldn't have had 1/2 of the insane issues I had for this mileage. Nothing that [preventive] maintenance would actually prevent. Cracked valve cover, water pump and T-stat, Steptronic *twice*, many many sensors..... and the list continues for over 8K$. If I get a BMW next time, I will not own it over 5 years-old.

[TAL2GK]

It's a sample of one, but I've owned my E85 Z4 since its inaugural year (13 years) and it's been flawless. The only thing I've done other than regular service is that I just had to have the AC recharged last year for the first time, which is not surprising given how much I use it here in NC, even sometimes while topless.

As I consider replacing it with an F83 M4, I am a bit concerned about the increased complexity of a turbocharged engine versus my NA. At least they're both straight sixes.

[wdb]

Originally Posted by TAL2GK

As I consider replacing it with an F83 M4, I am a bit concerned about the increased complexity of a turbocharged engine versus my NA.

Not to mention all the gadgetry and gewgaws.

[Twixboy]

Originally Posted by gthal

If you look at reliability stats, BMW is never at the top... other than Porsche, German cars generally aren't. More focus on performance than reliability which is different than Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc.

However, ALL cars today are pretty reliable so I wouldn't worry about it. Personally, I haven't had any reliability issues (knock on wood) in any of the 5 BMW's I have owned.

Repair bills out of warranty may be more but I can't speak to that as I've never owned a car outside of warranty

And that's the thing. All cars are reliable for the first 4 years and 50,000 miles, but you can drive a Honda for 15 years and 200,000 miles with no major problems. That's where the Japanese brands really shine - the maintenance costs on years 6 thru 10 is roughly the same as years 1 thru 5. Not so on a BMW (in general).

[-BEASTMW-]

Originally Posted by Twixboy

And that's the thing. All cars are reliable for the first 4 years and 50,000 miles, but you can drive a Honda for 15 years and 200,000 miles with no major problems. That's where the Japanese brands really shine - the maintenance costs on years 6 thru 10 is roughly the same as years 1 thru 5. Not so on a BMW (in general).

I think you nailed it there. I bought an '01 M5 in 2009 at 66k and drove it 29k miles before selling it this year. I also bought an '02 S2000 in 2013 at 48k and have driven it 18k miles so far. I have also done a handful of trackdays in the Honda but I never did in the M5. I keep a log of all the maintenance/wear items and costs of each car. In my ownership period, the M5 cost 4x as much per mile and 6x as much per year compared to the S2k. This is with me doing most labor on both cars.

Some of that is expected due to more features and generally higher performance/complication with the M5, but the actual experience tells the bigger story. While the M5 never left me stranded or didn't start (save for a couple of dead batteries), every month or two I was fixing something, and there were ALWAYS a couple things "to do" next. Things like fuel pumps, swaybar brackets, sticking door locks, weatherstripping, faulty power seats, sensors going out, seals leaking... those are things that are pretty much bound to happen on the M5 but you wouldn't think twice about in the Honda - even after caning the crap out of it on the track. And this M5 was not neglected - anyone would agree it was in great shape when I bought it and even better when I sold it.

I also had an Integra for 13 years that I autocrossed 50-60 times and modded quite a bit, and it never, ever skipped a beat. The upkeep of a BMW, especially an M car, is completely night and day vs. a Honda. With a Honda, you pretty much just use it and put it away - you expect it to work flawlessly and it's shocking if anything ever fails. It's liberating - I just wish Honda made more exciting cars over the past several years. The closest thing to an E90 M3 is... a last-gen TL 6MT? Whoop-dee-doo.

[wdb]

Originally Posted by -BEASTMW-

I just wish Honda made more exciting cars over the past several years.

***cough***NSX***cough***

[David70]

Originally Posted by wdb

***cough***NSX***cough***

Best I can tell they haven't made one in the last several years. Soon there will a void between anything and $150k? Maybe they will make it complex enough to finally match the reliability of the Germans.

[IEDEI]

i have a 1M with 75k miles and have had only ONE issue and that was the HPFP issue with the extended service bulletin. Other than the car feels as sharp as ever....tight and brand new-like.

Having owned Audis for 10 years before buying my 135 and now 1M....i can tell you that Audis are MUCH more problematic in every way than BMWs are.

[QUiKSR20]

Fact of the matter is, Aside from Fit & Finish / Suspension / design etc.. Germans are not good at reliability or as good on the reliability front, Its not even debatable.
And its not because we are comparing performance oriented cars or anything like that to Accords and Camrys.

When it comes to performance cars the reliability ( Engineering ) is just better in Japanese cars.

- EVO ( turbo / AWD )
- WRX / STI ( turbo / AWD )
- S2000 ( revs 9200 RPM ) just as reliable as an accord
- NSX
- 370Z
- GTR ( Turbo / AWD / DSG )
- IS-F

All dead reliable and dead reliable with poor maintenance, We know average people ignore alot of maintenance.
Its not major things that fail like engines / transmissions on the german cars its the small nickle and dime items.

Euro cars have soul and I have learned to live with my german cars I have owned, I love my F30
turbo and my E90 N52 was pretty damn reliable. But things like water pumps dying prematurely
and all the maintenance stuff needs to be fixed.. If HYUNDAI can nail reliability why cant the superior
Germans?

I find it funny how many people make up excuses on the reliability front, Just admit it.. We love the cars I personally love my car and how it drives but they seriously need to spend time stepping up the reliability.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by QUiKSR20

Euro cars have soul and I have learned to live with my german cars I have owned.... We love the cars I personally love my car and how it drives but they seriously need to spend time stepping up the reliability.

My (BMW owner) co-worker nailed it, his words: "Think of it as a great looking supermodel, smart, funny and also great cook... that's also, uh... fantastic in bed... BUT sometimes in the middle of the night snores crazy loud, and every now and then gets drunk and throws up on your boss' shoes during company's Christmas party"

His point I suppose is that girl next door might not be as bad for your career but might not be as good...uh..... in the kitchen

They aren't bulletproof or cheap to maintain, no doubt, but very few of today's cars are. Most people I know are aware they will "pay to play" at some point, but keep buying BMW anyway. They are well put together, drive and look great, which is more than I can say for many of the brands that are viewed as bulletproof in terms of quality.

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

My (BMW owner) co-worker nailed it, his words: "Think of it as a great looking supermodel, smart, funny and also great cook... that's also, uh... fantastic in bed... BUT sometimes in the middle of the night snores crazy loud, and every now and then gets drunk and throws up on your boss' shoes during company's Christmas party"

His point I suppose is that girl next door might not be as bad for your career but might not be as good...uh..... in the kitchen

They aren't bulletproof or cheap to maintain, no doubt, but very few of today's cars are. Most people I know are aware they will "pay to play" at some point, but keep buying BMW anyway. They are well put together, drive and look great, which is more than I can say for many of the brands that are viewed as bulletproof in terms of quality.

Great description.

[Nicholas Bentley]

2011 335i E90, owned for 5 years now with 0 problems other than a few tires replaced due to nails. Although I only have 28K miles on the thing and drive less than 6K miles a year since I work from home 90% of the time.

[bmw-again]

I personally am on BMW #4 right now and I have not had but a couple of little things. I also only keep them until warranty is about out but while in warranty my e46 broke a window regulator and my e90 had one little problem. When I switched to a 911 that was just out of warranty in 06 that is where I ran in to some issues. Had for about a year before getting back into BMW. I know Porsche had some problems with the 996 platform but it cost me some cash to fix. My e83 X3 is out of warranty but I overmaintain it so I hope it lasts. Its my work car.

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by Nicholas Bentley

2011 335i E90, owned for 5 years now with 0 problems other than a few tires replaced due to nails. Although I only have 28K miles on the thing and drive less than 6K miles a year since I work from home 90% of the time.

Well 28k mile come on what would you expect to go bad? Its a brand new car basically with that mileage.

German cars just need to work on reliability is it really that hard to do? I mean come on you got the design nailed. What are the other brands doing that differently to be dead nuts reliable?

In this day an age these cars are not that much more advanced over any other brand, Meaning they all have electronics and they are all built similar ways.

Knock on wood my E90 was pretty solid and my F30 has been great so they are improving....

[Nicholas Bentley]

Yep, I pretty much refer to it as my brand new 5 year old car.

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by Nicholas Bentley

Yep, I pretty much refer to it as my brand new 5 year old car.

Keep enjoying her Love my car

[Spook410]

Reliability is an objective metric based on a large data set. One person's individual experience or opinion means absolutely nothing.

So.. I won't bring up my 2008 135 that lost both turbo's and the fuel pump in the first year so I had to get rid of it in favor of reliable transport.

[Zyal8r]

Maintenance isn't the issue because the motor is well built and durable. It is the peripherals that are made by numerous other vendors like Bosch. All these purchased parts are not stringently specified, and tested like they are in the US and Japan etc. Wheels that crack and require a class action to get them to fix. I had a toyota truck with a frame rust recall many years out of warranty. They bought it back. for way more than it was worth! BMW fights even on safety failures. They won't replace wheels that crack out of warranty. There should be no time limit on basic safety and vehicle integrity like a wheel. The basic car is very well built, the purchased parts are not well designed and tested, and they make some very weird design errors. These quirks are overlooked by buyers who have the pay to play budget, buy warranties, or enjoy doing their own work on older cars.
I hear it all the time. Buy or lease and sell when warranty is up or extend it. The dealer gets a nice trade in and resells it with a another warranty for a lot more. Perhaps BMW has a good thing going. No reason to improve reliability. No other make sells so many warranties.

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by Zyal8r

Maintenance isn't the issue because the motor is well built and durable. It is the peripherals that are made by numerous other vendors like Bosch. All these purchased parts are not stringently specified, and tested like they are in the US and Japan etc. Wheels that crack and require a class action to get them to fix. I had a toyota truck with a frame rust recall many years out of warranty. They bought it back. for way more than it was worth! BMW fights even on safety failures. They won't replace wheels that crack out of warranty. There should be no time limit on basic safety and vehicle integrity like a wheel. The basic car is very well built, the purchased parts are not well designed and tested, and they make some very weird design errors. These quirks are overlooked by buyers who have the pay to play budget, buy warranties, or enjoy doing their own work on older cars.
I hear it all the time. Buy or lease and sell when warranty is up or extend it. The dealer gets a nice trade in and resells it with a another warranty for a lot more. Perhaps BMW has a good thing going. No reason to improve reliability. No other make sells so many warranties.

Spot on, When I got my first BMW that had a warranty it was my E90. I had an E30 and loved it so I decided to get a newer one and sell my current G35.. So I signed up on here and began reading and learning..

I couldn't believe how many times people ask about " CPO " and " Warranty " before my E90 and F30 I had a 06 G35. Nobody ever ever ever asks about warranties on the G35 forums for new or used.
I had the car for 50k miles from 40k to 90k, drag raced it a ton and sold it with not one issue the whole time I owned it.. Tires, Oil Change, Brakes thats it and I beat the crap out of it.

BMW and the Germans for that matter have the fit/finish and design nailed, If they can just get their hands around reliability it would be a huge game changer for them.
But when most are lease's and there making $$ why improve? We love our cars, Just a little less silly problems and I would love it that much more.

[Shaw]

Originally Posted by tvo9

I was in a barbershop last weekend getting a haircut. 3 chairs away, there were 2 customers talking about car.

- Female A has a Miata, and she praised how much better it is comparing to her previously owned Z3. She said the Z3 cost so much money for repairing and maintaining, and mockingly said BMW stands for Break My Wallet.

- Female B added to the conversation by saying how many more broken down BMW she saw on the side of the road vs other brands.

I did not say anything and just smiled, but it gets me thinking.

When I decided to get the BMW 1, and my bother-in-law asking why I get such an unreliable and high maintenance vehicle. I told him I like the car, and that's all matter. I have CPO on the vehicle until December 2017. If it's that bad, I'll trade it in.

I am a big fan of couple with usable back seats. I had a Scion tC, and MINI Cooper, but the BMW give me a lot more power than both, and I like the style of BMW 1 a lot more. I think I have found the perfect couple with the BMW 1. I plan to keep the 1 for a very long time.

My question to the community is: Is BMW that bad of a brand, for the first thing I hear from many people is how unreliably it is, and how expensive it is to maintain?

I obviously haven't owned BMW for that long. For those of you having multiple BMW, and different generations, what are you inputs?

I rather have a BMW broken down on the side of the highway than with a Nissan or Kia...
I've owned 4 BMW's going on the 5th...never a major problem...minors? for sure...it is a moving computer...with lots of complexities...but, it is still a state of the art vehicle...
with all do respect to all the ladies out there...they usually drive the car to the ground before knowing it requires maintenance...my wife for example...mostly drives the car without even looking at the gas tank?! ...once it starts beeping she comes to me, that the car needs gas!!
moreover, I know many people who hesitate in acquiring those add-on maintenance packages once their car passes the free 3-4 years package...so they are literally on their own...of course it is an expensive car and if you have to pay from your pocket, it will Break your Wallet and Heart (BWH!), but this goes without saying that if you take care of it, it will ride with you.
Those two ladies deserve to ride a Miata and Daewoo...
That's my 2 cents...

[QUiKSR20]

Originally Posted by Shaw

I rather have a BMW broken down on the side of the highway than with a Nissan or Kia...
I've owned 4 BMW's going on the 5th...never a major problem...minors? for sure...it is a moving computer...with lots of complexities...but, it is still a state of the art vehicle...

So those reliable GTR's are not "Moving Computers" all cars today are loaded with computers.. I love my car as much as you do but dont act like the issues are acceptable..
All cars need maintenance at some point, We are talking stuff breaking pre-maturely and parts breaking that should not break.

Those things are UN-EXCUSABLE.

[Dopeslope]

I honesly believe that in alot of modern things, certain components are engineered to fail

Or it could be as simple as cost cutting.....

But anyway, Ive only had my bmw a few months and tbh I was initially after an audi........ My car was 200 miles away and there and back I saw 8 Audis on the hard sholder all newish models
2 weeks later I took my brother to look at new car for him and we saw 4 audis on the hard shoulder - we saw 1 bmw

Im glad I got a Beemer

The one BMW that we saw went in style though....vert top stuck down and it was absolutely p*ssing it down, poor guy was on the verge in shorts and T-shirt soaked