[ASAP]

This school costs $3500 for 2 days, lockton track day insurance is prob around $500 per event... on a car for this value, it would be shocking if insurance wasnt included in this package, in fact it would almost be a scam.

[marcva]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

How stupid. Their schools are absurdly expensive. They should cover the insurance in house. Was thinking about going to Spartanburg this fall for one to learn more. Nevermind. I'll rent a local instructor and go to Roebling instead.

The BMW CCA schools should cover you. Some chapters include skidpad training in their regimen. The NCC program also provides extensive skidpad training once you become an instructor candidate.

[marcva]

Originally Posted by Face

All that being said, you'd have to be an absolute moron or willingly negligent (playing bumper cars) to be at any significant risk at the 1-day M-school (I can't speak for the Advanced). Most of the events were low speed (<50-60 mph) and spaced out in a way that the worst you could do is spin off the track in a corner. The riskiest event was the lapping session where you got up to 100+ on the back stretch.

I remember O'Fest in 2000 when they ran a really fun AutoX on the performance center track. A driver rolled their 318ti to end the event early. Driver was fine, but even a "safe" facility is dangerous.

Marc

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by marcva

I remember O'Fest in 2000 when they ran a really fun AutoX on the performance center track. A driver rolled their 318ti to end the event early. Driver was fine, but even a "safe" facility is dangerous.

Marc

Exactly. While my track experience has been mainly with motorcycles with some autocrossing in the past, the coaches for the school I go to emphasize the nannies on the S1000RR don't compensate for stupid.

[marcva]

Originally Posted by desertfox73

There already is a government agency requiring driving "capabilities", so no it's not another one...it would just be nice to have an effective one. It's shocking how little ability is required to actually drive a car. And how do you not realize that bad drivers aren't just a danger to themselves, they're a danger to everyone else on the road? Seriously? That's like smokers thinking they're the only ones at risk from the dangers of smoking. SMH.

BMWCCA schools will be required for my kids when they reach driving age. Car control skills are really important, but 99(?)% of Americans never get any training beyond staying between the lines and maybe trying to parallel park. There is usually the obligatory, "steer into the skid," comment in some drivers ed classroom, but only a handful get to practice, let alone master, countersteering on a skidpad.

[Domer88]

I can understand BMW wanting the customers to have their own liability coverage, because there is no limit to the liability someone can incur. But BMW should self-insure the cars as a cost of doing business.

I have an umbrella policy that would cover my personal liability at the track, but it would not, nor would my auto policy, cover any damages to an automobile.

[Outlaw 06]

When I read that whiny letter in Roundel, I got the impression that the author believes there should be no driver limits or liability, and that participants should be entitled to drive as recklessly as they want and wreck as many $60k to $100k M cars they can for the program cost.

Rational people who track other people’s cars understand that they have a responsibility to drive within their limits. Having said that, crashes do happen and I suspect that BMW would not charge M School participants for crash damage unless it was due to the driver’s gross negligence, recklessness, and/or blatant disregard for the rules.

[evanevery]

All the speculation about whether or not BMW's waiver will hold up in court based on language, instructors statements (even being video taped), or past historical precedence is a moot issue...

The fact of the matter is that BMW simply does not pursue damages or liability for accidents which may occur during their driving schools. In order to be worried about whether a case would stand up in court, it would first have to end up in court, which would require liability to be pursued. This simply doesn't happen...

Cars get banged up on a regular (although infrequent) basis in these schools, and to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever been approached to pay for the associated damages. The cars are typically repaired by the staff in the body shop at the PDC.

So, once again, if someone knows any different, I'm sure we'ld all love to hear the details...

It would do BMW well to remove the legal boiler-plate from their waiver. The language in the waiver was obviously generated by some legal minded individual and is not based on any sort of operating reality. In fact, the language in the waiver may be more to protect BMW from someone else's lawsuit (i.e. injured in an accident) rather than to be used to try to recover any damages to vehicles...

I've done the 2-day M-School and three deliveries at the PDC. I now do anywhere from 2-4 Advanced Schools each year just to get some track time at different tracks (VIR, RA, CMS) and hang out with friends. This also typically includes a yearly Ring trip (by invitation only if you are so lucky). I've made lots of friends at these classes and there is a whole group of folks who keep doing this as I do. We do these schools a couple of times a year and often try to coordinate which specific school dates we attend so we can meet for the event. I would guess that about a quarter of the students in any particular advanced class are in the "repeat offenders club".

Go to the schools. Have a blast. Make new friends. Work with some really amazing instructors. ...you simply don't need any additional insurance coverage.

Hopefully, BMW is aware of this thread and will be working to update their waiver to reflect the reality of the situation.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by marcva

The BMW CCA schools should cover you. Some chapters include skidpad training in their regimen. The NCC program also provides extensive skidpad training once you become an instructor candidate.

That's a great idea. Never joined CCA since the "local" chapter is a solid 3 hr drive away, but if they do driving events that's a great option to make it more affordable.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by Domer88

I can understand BMW wanting the customers to have their own liability coverage, because there is no limit to the liability someone can incur. But BMW should self-insure the cars as a cost of doing business.

I have an umbrella policy that would cover my personal liability at the track, but it would not, nor would my auto policy, cover any damages to an automobile.

This is what I was talking about. I understand liability. That's another issue. But, in any high dollar class scenario, mistakes happen, and I'd be damned if I was responsible for replacing a fender on a car I didn't own after I paid a huge entry fee to take the class. We're not talking about some $300 HPDE thing. Not even talking about their car control course (which I also think is fairly expensive TBH).

[N & M]

If you look at the waiver (a link to which I included in post 33) you'll see there isn't much that needs clarification. If you sign the waiver, you acknowledge you are responsible for damage and have insurance coverage. The fact they haven't held people responsible doesn't change the clear legal document you sign. So it is a participant judgment - don't sign / don't participate or sign / rely on low probability of an accident or being held responsible in an accident.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for elaborating on the obvious, but you missed the point. I wanted BMW to comment on criticisms of it passing the entire liability to its customers in a customer goodwill environment and why it chose to adopt this policy.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by Domer88

I can understand BMW wanting the customers to have their own liability coverage, because there is no limit to the liability someone can incur. But BMW should self-insure the cars as a cost of doing business.

The cars themselves are self-insured as many of them are utilized later on in other corporate programs and expenses can be written of for tax purposes (i.e.: repairable cosmetic and mechanical damage repair is performed by students in the Body Repair School and STEP Training Program, while others are torn down for R&D purposes). If BMW filed a claim against a participant for repairable damage, it wouldn't have much if any merit based on unreasonable betterment alone.

The waiver posted is not the only one in use and may not even be the current version for that specific location/event.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by N & M

Thanks for elaborating on the obvious, but you missed the point. I wanted BMW to comment on criticisms of it passing the entire liability to its customers in a customer goodwill environment and why it chose to adopt this policy.

I'd be pretty surprised to see someone from BMW pop into this thread with an official explanation of their logic for requiring signed waivers with the terms they include, but I guess you never know.

Originally Posted by miamiten

The waiver posted is not the only one in use and may not even be the current version for that specific location/event.

The waiver is from one day M school in August 2015. If someone has an alternative or newer version of what BMW is using, it would be great if they would post it up. It would have also been great if BMWCCA looked into it and included some information in italics under the reader's letter in Roundel but they didn't, so my only assumption is that the reader got the same or similar waiver I got.

[DarkstarZero]

Echoing going to your local BMW CCA HPDE. ~$400 for the weekend + track insurance is way cheaper than a 2 day M School. Plus you get to learn on your car, with your mods, and find out if they're any good or not (usually not).

Also, you can check your insurance fine print. Some companies (not Geico) cover the event because it's driver education and not racing. Just don't time your laps, that turns it into racing.

Geico coverage stops as soon as you enter the track facility. If you wanted to just park and watch you'd have to get track insurance to have coverage for if your car was hit in the parking lot. ... Don't use Geico.

[evanevery]

Originally Posted by DarkstarZero

Echoing going to your local BMW CCA HPDE. ~$400 for the weekend + track insurance is way cheaper than a 2 day M School.

Well, that's a pretty simplistic perspective and NOT necessarily correct.

I just started doing track events regularly with my own M4 and I can assure you there is more to the cost of a track session than just admission fee's. (I'm a member at the AutoBahn Country Club). I burned through a full set of tires (factory Conti's) in just 2 full track days and I've been through my CCB pads in 4. So, $1700 for a set of Michelin PSC2's and another $600 for the CCB pads for the fronts.

So, when you think your getting away much cheaper by using your own vehicle, please don't forget to include the cost of consumables in the equation (Tires, Brakes, Gas, etc)...

- and you are using your own vehicle. So the schools effectively include the rental of several different M models for the two day events.

- and (the topic at hand), you do NOT need insurance at the M Schools so you can save on that and any headaches and expenses which come from a wrecked personal vehicle, towing, repair, and running down your personal insurance claim (or not). You do not put your own personal vehicle at risk.

- The schools also provide excellent instruction by a professional, talented, experienced staff (rather than just senior Car Club members). The BMW Instructors are all professional race drivers with considerable experience.

- The schools also typically include full room and meals at some very nice hotels and resorts (the Advanced school at VIR does not).

So, I'm all for getting some track time with your own car, but do not discount the cost of consumables - or the additional benefits provided by the BMW schools.

The BMW schools are truly "arrive and drive" with no worries on your part for gas, tires, brakes, maintenance, repairs, lodging, or meals... ...and you don't have to put your own vehicle at risk!

[Jono2112]

Originally Posted by evanevery

Well, that's a pretty simplistic perspective and NOT necessarily correct.

I just started doing track events regularly with my own M4 and I can assure you there is more to the cost of a track session than just admission fee's. (I'm a member at the AutoBahn Country Club). I burned through a full set of tires (factory Conti's) in just 2 full track days and I've been through my CCB pads in 4. So, $1700 for a set of Michelin PSC2's and another $600 for the CCB pads for the fronts.

So, when you think your getting away much cheaper by using your own vehicle, please don't forget to include the cost of consumables in the equation (Tires, Brakes, Gas, etc)...

- and you are using your own vehicle. So the schools effectively include the rental of several different M models for the two day events.

- and (the topic at hand), you do NOT need insurance at the M Schools so you can save on that and any headaches and expenses which come from a wrecked personal vehicle, towing, repair, and running down your personal insurance claim (or not). You do not put your own personal vehicle at risk.

- The schools also provide excellent instruction by a professional, talented, experienced staff (rather than just senior Car Club members). The BMW Instructors are all professional race drivers with considerable experience.

- The schools also typically include full room and meals at some very nice hotels and resorts (the Advanced school at VIR does not).

So, I'm all for getting some track time with your own car, but do not discount the cost of consumables - or the additional benefits provided by the BMW schools.

The BMW schools are truly "arrive and drive" with no worries on your part for gas, tires, brakes, maintenance, repairs, lodging, or meals... ...and you don't have to put your own vehicle at risk!

I would consider it a great deal to go to the BMW school if I were sure I wouldn't incur the liability of a wreck at the whim of a corporation lawyer. I am hoping that some information will be forthcoming to reassure everyone they will be financially safe at the BMW school.
I'd like to have the opportunity to do both M school and BMW or maybe PCA HPDE training. We want to learn more about our car, have a little fun, and enjoy the company of other enthusiasts.

[orangeglim]

This is a serious downer for me. I was planning to go to the BMW school in Spartansburg in October of this year. However, this insurance issue is a huge problem. I've got a wife and three kids, I can't afford to go, sign whatever this waiver is, and just "hope" they decide not to make me responsible for whatever happens. Sure, most of the time nothing happens, but that goes for every day life. Everyone has car insurance because of the shit that's not supposed to happen. Not being covered in any way while at the BMW school is a non-starter for me.

[desertfox73]

Originally Posted by marcva

BMWCCA schools will be required for my kids when they reach driving age. Car control skills are really important, but 99(?)% of Americans never get any training beyond staying between the lines and maybe trying to parallel park. There is usually the obligatory, "steer into the skid," comment in some drivers ed classroom, but only a handful get to practice, let alone master, countersteering on a skidpad.

Right there with you buddy. My kids will also attend a non-required driving school that not only prepares them to deal with individual circumstances they might face (wet roads, etc) but also how to anticipate poor drivers. I want them overstep weed. Plus I'm looking forward to taking the classes myself!

[ralawren]

I do not have an issue with the lack of insurance for participants. Having attended two schools with the BMW Tarheel Club I was fine knowing that I needed to be careful to prptect my fellow students and my wallet. There are a couple locations on the handling courses where going off track will catch a tire in mud or a significant drop off and you need to be cautious. For the BMW Club events you have a fellow club member as a passenger and you need to be mindful of their safery.

I do not want to be on track with someone that is oblivious to safety issues because they are not financially responsible.

However, I would be okay if there was a deductible $2000-$3000 and the rest was covered by BMW. That should be a deterent for most participants.

Just my opinion.

[MParallel]

Originally Posted by miamiten

Amen! And now that the nannies are becoming predictive rather than reactive, there is the safety margin that remains intact without degrading performance. If the stability control is intervening, the car is being pushed beyond its limits. That incident at Sebring was due to the student deactivating ESP and lifted (in a 996) 3/4 of the way through turn 6. First impact was at 136mph glancing blow with the first preceding car, second was at 122mph with the car 3 positions forward which severed the front off (along with the lower half the driver), before disintegrating on impact with the Crash barrier entering the safety pen that sent chunks flying and a corner worker was hit with debris.

Nasty.
And even after that they still got rewarded lawsuits?

[stylinexpat]

Originally Posted by ASAP

This school costs $3500 for 2 days, lockton track day insurance is prob around $500 per event... on a car for this value, it would be shocking if insurance wasnt included in this package, in fact it would almost be a scam.

I agree

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by MParallel

Nasty.
And even after that they still got rewarded lawsuits?

It doesn't feel like it was that long ago, but it's been close to 15 years since this occurred and it was contained rather well. All public records and settlements were expunged or sealed and parties bound to NDA's. 16 actions/claims were filed and 11 dismissed. Of the 5 that were settled, only 3 were legitimate in my opinion. The remaining two were PTSD claims beyond the workers comp coverage by employees at the hotel, and their location at the time of the incident made it unlikely their exposure was involuntary, but it couldn't be proven beyond doubt.