[G80indy]

Originally Posted by noro

I would argue that the wheel attempting to follow parallel groves in the pavement is a good thing. Case in point my ZHP does that and I feel like I always know what's going on. On the flip side my E92 335i would keep the wheel where I left it. The result is that I don't miss the E92 at all and now I am dreading selling the E46 ZHP away. I have never driven an F30 which is a car I plan to get so I have no idea what that feels like after the E92.

I also have a 72 2002 with no assist steering and I can tell you that under certain circumstances is feels ideal but for every day use it has a lot of discomforts to it.

my E30 M3 steering is likely to give a person an orgasm is best I can describe it... ZHP is very very close in terms of driving pleasure.

"ZHP" steering is basically any e46 m.y. 2002 or later. Same rack & ratio.
(Sport suspension standard on 330. )

[Outlaw 06]

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” – attributed to Henry Ford

“My personal opinion is, we’re providing enough feedback to our mainstream customers… the strongest [customer] demand we heard was, ‘Please reduce the steering effort.’ They [today’s mainstream BMW customers] seem to want more isolation.” - BMW driving-dynamics expert Johann Kistler.

BMW engineers clearly know that hydraulic assisted rack-and-pinion steering systems deliver superior road feedback to the driver. However, BMW decided to go mainstream in order to attract the Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infiniti, Toyota/Lexus driving masses who consider cars to be merely a conveyance to get from Point A to Point B, and prefer puttering around (at 3,000 engine RPM or less) on marshmallow suspensions with electric power steering so the car is easier to park and because they'll save 1/10th of a gallon of gas per fill-up...

IMO, BMW is no longer ahead of the competition because they’ve put far too much faith in the opinions of their “mainstream” customers who have no idea why they bought/leased the brand, and are incapable of rationally articulating what they need in a performance car or why they need it.

[tc328]

If they continue to be like the masses, why should I pay more for a BMW?

[Powaup]

It used to feel awkward going from my e39 to the m4. Like something was missing in terms of steering. Now that I only drive the M4 I'm very much used to its steering which is much better than the f30 loaners I have gotten.

Software updates have also help improv the steering on the m4

[Blackcross]

>When we moved to EPS, we learned how to divide the good and bad messages for the customer.” <

Hohohoho

In my M235i, there is ZERO feedback.

Yes the steering is razor sharp, however I do not have cooked spaghetti for arms. If the majority of people want super wimpy steering in their sports cars, then why is the manual shifter notchy and stiff? Hmm? Oh wait, no one buys the manual anymore and BW doesn't want to sell them.

And don't get me going on that "progressive" tripe. When turning into a parking lot, dropping from street speed to parking lot speed, I almost always need to back off because both the effort and the ratio change a very large and noticeable amount. R&T nailed it when they called the M235 the worst of the three 2-series primarily due to the steering.

I track the car and also look for sporty handling on the street. I want to know what the car is doing. But as many pointed out, BMW is building to attract new customers. They have always left the old loyal customers behind in some fashion.

Keep in mind that the engineers no longer run the company. I've worked with many different German manufacturers and the engineers are fantastic and very precise: they will build exactly what marketing/product management define.

Back to the steering: I've increased the 'weighting' by adding spacers, removing the ridiculous amount of negative front toe, dropping the tire pressure a tad, and soon to be adding 235s in the front. And still watching the forums to see if there is a software solution.

Ah well, I guess I'm no longer BMW's target market.

[asus389]

I wonder if Porsche will release a smaller sedan. They would pretty much clean up if that were the case. They are killing it with their SUVs.

[tc328]

Originally Posted by asus389

I wonder if Porsche will release a smaller sedan. They would pretty much clean up if that were the case. They are killing it with their SUVs.

+1 if porsche makes an entry level sedan

Game Over

[Manbnda]

I think in general people love an artificial feel in the steering wheel.
I think it is natural, because it feels more avantgarde, smoother... more like a machine that is working for us.
And I think it is ultimately a consequence of all the other "helping nannies" that now cars have as standard, that help us in a way that we don't have to care about proper driving, or knowing how to drive, the machine is working for us. We only have to tell it how fast and aim with the steering wheel.

In that case, why do you want steering feel when you have many other artificial systems fixing the way the car should really be behaving in corners for example?
Cars nowadays are designed to give us the illusion that we can drive properly according to the laws of physics. Many of the people complaining about this sort of stuff would be dead by now, if they didn't have it on their cars.

I like my F30 Sportline, it feels artificial in some ways and more engaging in other ways. The steering is much better than the completely disconnected steering in the new A4 of my GF. I know the steering could be much better in my car, but that would not make me feel like I'm driving properly a sports cars, no one is, except for true professionals.

Would I like BMW to make more "natural" cars? Yes, and hopefully make me learn how to be a better driver. I'm an enthusiast, and I love to drive. But that is not the direction in which things are going for a mass market brand like BMW or Audi.

After a 4 hour drive in the new A4, I had to see the positive side of the completely numb steering feel: At least I didn't end up that tired after the trip, as I normally do with my F30.

[tc328]

Originally Posted by Manbnda

I think in general people love an artificial feel in the steering wheel.
I think it is natural, because it feels more avantgarde, smoother... more like a machine that is working for us.
And I think it is ultimately a consequence of all the other "helping nannies" that now cars have as standard, that help us in a way that we don't have to care about proper driving, or knowing how to drive, the machine is working for us. We only have to tell it how fast and aim with the steering wheel.

In that case, why do you want steering feel when you have many other artificial systems fixing the way the car should really be behaving in corners for example?
Cars nowadays are designed to give us the illusion that we can drive properly according to the laws of physics. Many of the people complaining about this sort of stuff would be dead by now, if they didn't have it on their cars.

I like my F30 Sportline, it feels artificial in some ways and more engaging in other ways. The steering is much better than the completely disconnected steering in the new A4 of my GF. I know the steering could be much better in my car, but that would not make me feel like I'm driving properly a sports cars, no one is, except for true professionals.

Would I like BMW to make more "natural" cars? Yes, and hopefully make me learn how to be a better driver. I'm an enthusiast, and I love to drive. But that is not the direction in which things are going for a mass market brand like BMW.

After a 4 hour drive in the new A4, I had to see the positive side of the completely numb steering feel: At least I didn't end up that tired after the trip, as I normally do with my F30.

You feel tired after driving for 4 hours in the f30??? Seriously??? I drive 2-3 hours everyday and the steering is too soft

[Manbnda]

Originally Posted by tc328

You feel tired after driving for 4 hours in the f30??? Seriously??? I drive 2-3 hours everyday and the steering is too soft

haha I love it, it's more engaging, didn't mean it in a bad way.
But Audi made it clear, with the new A4, that they don't give a shit about any driving feel whatsoever. (At least now the steering feels more confident than the one of the previous gen, which in my opinion was horrible)
And I think BMW is slowly following the same path each new generation.

[noro]

Originally Posted by 330indy

"ZHP" steering is basically any e46 m.y. 2002 or later. Same rack & ratio.
(Sport suspension standard on 330. )

It is not... there is a very long discussion on the boards about this.

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showt...are*-different

It's a very minor difference that apparently makes a pretty big difference in the way it feels.

[Kash]

Originally Posted by Blackcross

>When we moved to EPS, we learned how to divide the good and bad messages for the customer.” <

Hohohoho

In my M235i, there is ZERO feedback.

Yes the steering is razor sharp, however I do not have cooked spaghetti for arms. If the majority of people want super wimpy steering in their sports cars, then why is the manual shifter notchy and stiff? Hmm? Oh wait, no one buys the manual anymore and BW doesn't want to sell them.

And don't get me going on that "progressive" tripe. When turning into a parking lot, dropping from street speed to parking lot speed, I almost always need to back off because both the effort and the ratio change a very large and noticeable amount. R&T nailed it when they called the M235 the worst of the three 2-series primarily due to the steering.

I track the car and also look for sporty handling on the street. I want to know what the car is doing. But as many pointed out, BMW is building to attract new customers. They have always left the old loyal customers behind in some fashion.

Keep in mind that the engineers no longer run the company. I've worked with many different German manufacturers and the engineers are fantastic and very precise: they will build exactly what marketing/product management define.

Back to the steering: I've increased the 'weighting' by adding spacers, removing the ridiculous amount of negative front toe, dropping the tire pressure a tad, and soon to be adding 235s in the front. And still watching the forums to see if there is a software solution.

Ah well, I guess I'm no longer BMW's target market.

In my M235i, there is ZERO feedback.

+1

[E9TOU]

My boss knows nothing about cars and she used to own a ZSP E46 330 Sedan. She told me that she's driven a lot of cars and nothing has ever come close how great her 330 felt. Even if most BMW drivers don't care about steering feel, most drivers know a good feeling car when they drive one and that feeling sticks with them even when the move onto other cars. I have a feeling my boss is going to look into a modern day BMW when she's looking for her next car and find disappointment that it doesn't feel as good as her old 330.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by tc328

+1 if porsche makes an entry level sedan

Game Over

Like that will Happen lol.

if Porsche made an entry level sedan at 35000 would there wouldn't one for less than about 65,900 on any showroom floor

[Tyresian]

Isn't the smaller Porsche sedan called an Audi?

Even if they DO make a Porsche sedan that thing wouldn't start close to 35000... It is Porsche and many buyers would scoff at the brand being wasted. The cheepest point of entry would have to be the 45k - 50k realm.

[G80indy]

Originally Posted by noro

It is not... there is a very long discussion on the boards about this.

http://www.zhpmafia.com/forums/showt...ks-apparently-*are*-different

It's a very minor difference that apparently makes a pretty big difference in the way it feels.

The cross member is different... Slightly thicker
Same rack in my ZSP

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by lowbudgethero

I have a rental Forester currently with EPS and CVT, and let my gf who has a conventional power steering subaru impreza and has driven the older Forester to try it out. She didn't like it at all. This was coming from someone who pretty much could care less about driving dynamics and drives 40 miles to work everyday. I feel like BMW owners care more about handling and how a car feels than the average person so I want to know what customers was bmw talking about.

Those who want a Camry and are disappointed in the handing of their BMW.

Surveys usually have very low completion rates, creating selection bias as well. I don't have the stats, however, if I'm right BMW is making decisions on what their engineer calls "bad information".

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by Outlaw 06

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” – attributed to Henry Ford

“My personal opinion is, we’re providing enough feedback to our mainstream customers… the strongest [customer] demand we heard was, ‘Please reduce the steering effort.’ They [today’s mainstream BMW customers] seem to want more isolation.” - BMW driving-dynamics expert Johann Kistler.

BMW engineers clearly know that hydraulic assisted rack-and-pinion steering systems deliver superior road feedback to the driver. However, BMW decided to go mainstream in order to attract the Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infiniti, Toyota/Lexus driving masses who consider cars to be merely a conveyance to get from Point A to Point B, and prefer puttering around (at 3,000 engine RPM or less) on marshmallow suspensions with electric power steering so the car is easier to park and because they'll save 1/10th of a gallon of gas per fill-up...

IMO, BMW is no longer ahead of the competition because they’ve put far too much faith in the opinions of their “mainstream” customers who have no idea why they bought/leased the brand, and are incapable of rationally articulating what they need in a performance car or why they need it.

How are they defining the cohort they call "mainstream"? What characteristics does it have?

Therein lies part of the problem. Why ever take direction from the mainstream? If I want to improve my golf swing, my serve, my jump shot, etc. do I ask an advanced / expert or pro or some guy that's played 18 holes in his life? Is it smart to basically set out with a goal of making the same numb and vanilla thing other car makers build?

This is how you dumb-down and destroy the very unique things that make a brand vibrant, viable, and differentiated.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

BMW is luxury. It's a sportier version of a Lexus. But it's still a luxury-based vehicle.

So, when you that great steering feel is "preferable", it's preferable to who? Most BMW owners aren't longing for the days of excellent feedback through the steering wheel. It's a select few. Us purists, or us enthusiasts.

Do you think most BMW owners want to 'feel the road' as they're driving around town running errands? I'd venture to guess that most simply want an isolated, luxurious experience (just like a Lexus), but they bought the BMW because of prestige and aesthetics and some semblance of a more sporty driving experience when they occasionally want it.

The future is electric-assisted steering, and it's going to take a few model generations before it's perfected...hec, Porsche is still tinkering and tweaking their's too.

In the meantime, BMW is in the business of selling and/or leasing as many cars as possible. The few customers they lose because of the loss of steering feel pales in comparison to the ones they gain because of all their advanced technology giving way to a more "luxurious" experience (more luxurious than even Lexus at times).

If they wanted an isolated luxurious ride they'd by the Lexus to begin with because it also has reliability. You buy the bmw because it is sport luxury. Sport being first.

There's a German saying that is no longer valid. You drive a BMW, a Mercedes drives you. I guess the current crop of BMW engineersforgot that.

[asus389]

Originally Posted by Tyresian

Isn't the smaller Porsche sedan called an Audi?

Even if they DO make a Porsche sedan that thing wouldn't start close to 35000... It is Porsche and many buyers would scoff at the brand being wasted. The cheepest point of entry would have to be the 45k - 50k realm.

Audis are nice for what they are, but they historically haven't had much "feel" like Porsches even though they share the same parent. One of the biggest fails they have had recently from an enthusiast standpoint was not importing a manual version of the A3. It shares the same platform as the excellent Mk7 GTI, which is available in a manual - so it doesn't make much sense.

There have been rumors for years of a shrunk down Panamera style sedan called the Pajun. Not sure the current status.

[tc328]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Like that will Happen lol.

if Porsche made an entry level sedan at 35000 would there wouldn't one for less than about 65,900 on any showroom floor

I meant a sedan starting at $45-$50k
Not really an entry level haha

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by pz619

Honestly I think it's what BMW struggles with the most. It's not like EPS can't have great feel. Take the Honda S2000 as an example.

Even the M235i which is suppose to be one of the better steering newer BMWs I feel it's not that good. Outside of the fact that there really isn't any feedback (good or bad) coming from the steering wheel I feel the diciest part is the variable steering. Variable Steering in tighter hairpins are vague at best. The fact is that I can't really predict how much turn in I'm going to get when I turn the wheel The ratio changes on numerous conditions and in the end it comes off feeling unnatural and unbalanced. Because it's not progressive I often find myself having to back the ratio off a bit because I've dialed in the wheel too much. This doesn't inspire confidence on tight mountain roads. Parking lots maybe, but that's not really why I bought the car.

You can't be serious? I have an S2000, i wouldn't call it's steering to have great feel. In my opinion it is one of the weak points of the car.