[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Not a flame here, but Cadillac has picked up the ball from BMW. The ATS and CTS are very fine driving automobiles, and you don't have to get an expensive V to get a good driving version of them. The Chevy SS is far overlooked as a choice too. The New Jag XE appears to fill the void too. What is disappointing is the original attribute of the 3 series was you could get a great dynamic handling car with a manual trans and rearwheel drive for a decent price. It's seems now the market has moved to where that type of car from BMW is only found with a $20K M badge on it, and it has turned into an overpowered, over-expensive, almost gaudy, caricature of itself.

The best new 3-series I have driven is the ATS.

You mention some sedans that have gotten great reviews and press. When I am in the market again I'll try them out for sure. There real acid test for any of us BMW owners is actually going and buying one of those other brands. Otherwise, its just talk.

You say you need to get an M and pay a $20k premium to get a great driving dynamic handling car with a manual trans and rearwheel drive but the M is overpowered. If the M is too much power, what about a 328 or 340 with the proper options. These cars are easily in the price range of the cars you mentioned. Bottom line: I think you can get a BMW sedan meets your criteria. You may not personally like the driving dynamics, but these cars compete price-wise with the cars you mention.

I know this is all subjective. You and some others don't like the current BMWs and share your feelings with this group and that's fine. There are many, many others of us who bought them and love it.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Kyle B

No.

Good answer

Care to elaborate? Outside of your forthcoming explanation, the only thing I can think to distinguish between the two is the "level" of profit. That is, yes, a company wants to make profit but "greed" is wanting to earn excessive profit? Maybe that's it?

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by bd307

I do not believe there will be a company who can be successful (profitable) selling high performance cars only because majority of the population changed the way they shop for products. Just think about it. You and I would want to spend as little money as possible but at the same time receive as many features as possible. Our cars are a good example.

I remember the time BMW were having to face reality, would they try and stay more exclusive or go for volume. Volume won, (3-series being a key model range) for all the reasons we run a business.

A few years back it was hard to get a discount, (maybe ~5%), now here in the UK buyers are getting over 20%. Keeping factories at full production seems to be a critical driver.

We certainly get more car for our money these days.

[David70]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

There real acid test for any of us BMW owners is actually going and buying one of those other brands. Otherwise, its just talk.

I am now a BMW and Cadillac ATS owner and happy with my decision. Bought it two years ago and it had 10k miles on it (CPO), now at 38k miles.

[Vocans]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'm sorry but I have to rant a bit here. I'm sick and tired of this Ivy League business axiom that the duty of a company is to its share holders. I think this is just utter fucking bullshit, and has screwed up more perfectly good well-run companies than any economic downturn cycle. Any businesses first and foremost "duty" is to its Customers, not share holders. If a company holds true to its customers, the stock price will reflect it.

For the record, it's not an "Ivy League business axiom," nor is it really an axiom in the literal sense, it's a well-rooted principle of corporate law in the United States that corporate directors and officers owe fiduciary duties to shareholders (the owners of the corporation). To effect any kind of change in these duties would require undoing various state statutes and case law that have been in place for well over a hundred years, it's not a new philosophy by any means. Granted, I'm not a German attorney so I can't really speak to the fiduciary duties of directors and officers in German entities.

[bratwurst1]

Easy answer just drive an E84 with good old fashioned hydraulic steering.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Vocans

For the record, it's not an "Ivy League business axiom," nor is it really an axiom in the literal sense, it's a well-rooted principle of corporate law in the United States that corporate directors and officers owe fiduciary duties to shareholders (the owners of the corporation). To effect any kind of change in these duties would require undoing various state statutes and case law that have been in place for well over a hundred years, it's not a new philosophy by any means. Granted, I'm not a German attorney so I can't really speak to the fiduciary duties of directors and officers in German entities.

But it get's translated into increasing the stock price of a corporation by artificial means. Since most of the people who run wall street and influence the laws of the United States regarding corporate operation are from the Ivy League, I still hold it to be an Ivy League axiom. And those duties you speak of supported in law are to run the company ethically and protect stock holders. However in today's stock market, it's been my experience that under the moniker of corporations have a duty to its stock holders, the markets artificially manipulate stock prices so that top stock holders make windfalls off the sale of corporations and no-tax spin-offs (I've been through two since 2011). These actions leave the purchasing corporations riddled with debt to the point where they have no capital, deprecating assets, and a depreciating workforce that are unable to use those assets to create any wealth.

I'm no Bernie supporter by any means, but more of a true capitalistic operation of the markets would be nice.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

You mention some sedans that have gotten great reviews and press. When I am in the market again I'll try them out for sure. There real acid test for any of us BMW owners is actually going and buying one of those other brands. Otherwise, its just talk.

You say you need to get an M and pay a $20k premium to get a great driving dynamic handling car with a manual trans and rearwheel drive but the M is overpowered. If the M is too much power, what about a 328 or 340 with the proper options. These cars are easily in the price range of the cars you mentioned. Bottom line: I think you can get a BMW sedan meets your criteria. You may not personally like the driving dynamics, but these cars compete price-wise with the cars you mention.

I know this is all subjective. You and some others don't like the current BMWs and share your feelings with this group and that's fine. There are many, many others of us who bought them and love it.

The last F30 I drove was a 2013 320i with a sport package. When I returned from my test drive the Sales Manager, the same person who I negotiated with when I ordered by E90 in April 2006, offered almost $6K off the sticker price without even a blink. I told him what I had just drove was not a BMW. I may go to the dealership this Friday, I'll see if there is any improvement of the F30 since the LCI suspension redesign. I still doubt it is as good as an ATS.

[Kayani_1]

I had extensive driving experience behind the previous generation CTS-V coupe and sedan on track also. I was impressed with those cars thought they came up a bit short on few categories compared to the M5 or M6. But were still bang for the buck in comparison.

I have heard good stuff about the new breed of CTS-V or ATS-V cars. I will be getting to drive some very soon during a cadillac event. I hope you are right.

As for American cars I am already loving the C7 stingray and like the GT350 a lot. I am not only buy German car type guy. I am an enthusiast, so who ever makes better car that is geared towards enthusiast I will just gravitate towards that brand.

Originally Posted by tetsuo111

Closest modern car to the classic BMWs:
http://www.cadillac.com/v-series.html

To those who say they would never consider buying an American car, drive it. I used to swear I would only buy German. Emotions about brand loyalty run strong, most especially among enthusiasts like us. I understand there are those who will never consider an American car, mostly because American cars used to be so horrible.

I've said this before - it must have been hell to work as an engineer / product manager / marketing person in Detroit in the 70s and 80s, being forced to build crap by bean counters like the ones directing the strategy at BMW today. Now, those formerly young Detroit employees are Directors, EVPs, and CXOs. I'm of the opinion they have a huge chip on their shoulder from the painful memories of the past, and have something big to prove.

[Kayani_1]

Don't know about in comparison to ATS as I will get to drive one soon enough. However, I drove a fully loaded F30 340i with 15K in Dinan options and most all factory performance bits. I came away hoping for more. The car even with the Dinan exhaust was quiet in comparison to my car. The car placed well but steering was dead. Even the extra OOMPh from Dinan tune and exhaust etc. geared to 8 speed auto did not produce the sensation I get from my Cobb tuned E92 N54 twin turbo. The car was just too sedated and docile for me. But I realize a dash of sports is all you get these days from BMW and I want a huge fistfull of sports.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The last F30 I drove was a 2013 320i with a sport package. When I returned from my test drive the Sales Manager, the same person who I negotiated with when I ordered by E90 in April 2006, offered almost $6K off the sticker price without even a blink. I told him what I had just drove was not a BMW. I may go to the dealership this Friday, I'll see if there is any improvement of the F30 since the LCI suspension redesign. I still doubt it is as good as an ATS.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

After two decades as a BMW owner of E46, E39, E60, E65, and E92. My last purchase of BMW cars stopped once it came time to replace my E60 545i. I test drove the new 3 series, 5 series, 6 series, and 7 series. They all failed to impress me with their extra floaty rides, dead steering feel, and simply lack of that magical perfect balance of sporty and luxury that no longer exists. Thus, I did not replace my E60 5 series with another BMW, when the time came to do so. I still own my E92 335i and have driven all including the 2 series as a replacement option. I just don't care for the new direction or feel of BMW cars. Its too much luxury and not enough sports. That just enough dash of raw feeling and that connectedness with the car and driver being one is sort of gone for me.

I complained on these forums loudly, even got banned from one, the bimmerfest I think lol!!. My comments of BMW criticism were offensive to the new breed of BMW owners, who complained against me, because it made them feel inferior about their prestigious purchase.

Since, I stopped complaining loudly, and have just spoke with my wallet. I have stopped buying BMW cars and my last replacement car for my E60 was not any current newer model BMW's. My next replacement car for my E92 will not be any current BMW cars.

To the BMW management and project leaders in charge of making cars. Please, take a cue from Ford or Chevy. They new C7 stingray or Mustang GT350 or GT350R are much more of true affordable enthusiast cars than any thing BMW offers. They are making a better effort to attract enthusiast. I still like Porsche brand. But have never gotten into it, manily due to their price point always being so much higher and unpractical especially if you add any decent options.

I do not dislike all new BMW's. The M2 is a better effort but still has a same ol dead steering feel and honestly is a bit pricey for the power it offers when you look at GT350 or C7 stingray as possible options. The i8 is a good effort but ditto, it lacks true sustained grunt for super car price and the skinny tires and dead steering still take away from it being a drivers car. The M3 GTS is not affordable for me atleast not as an M4.


Bye Bye BMW........good luck emulating Toyota Camrys or Toyota Corolla of the world. I am sure you will ride the badge prestige to many sales, until the badge prestige worshippers move on to the next best thing and the prestige and persona of BMW magical cars falls to way side due to constant criticism by media and enthusiasts.

Remembers, enthusiast and automotive media are loud vocal and build brand prestige over time and wannabe prestige badge worshipper follow behind to discover what the fuss is all about and buy products that are highly praised by them.

Every person among friends and family now that asks me for advise as a car guy instead of singing praises of BMW cars and how impressive they drove. I tell them the truth of how boring they have become and how I would not recommend one or buy one.

BMW, fails to realize the long term harm they have done to their brand prestige by alienating the enthusiasts.

Enough ranting lol!! I only came to check E9x forum and got drawn into this. Don't wanna get banned of another BMW forum as I like meeting with older model BMW owners and still participating in cool things that come out for older BMW's. Also, sorry if I offended any new model BMW owners.

I very much agree with everything you said. My problem is that there isn't anything else out there that draws my attention. I like Porsche also but feel they are way out there with price point as you stated. I had a very hard time switching to the F series BMWs. I couldn't get past the numb steering feel. I actually stayed with the e92 and bought a CPO 335is instead of going to the F series for my DD (wife got the F series ). Unfortunately I totaled the 335is a few months ago ugggg. I ended up ordering an M4 for ED and was supposed to pick it up 2 days ago. Stop delivery on M cars took care of that for me. BMW hasn't handled this situation very well IMO. After 11 cars for the wife and I including a few family members I might start to look elsewhere. The problem still remains though where to go?

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The last F30 I drove was a 2013 320i with a sport package. When I returned from my test drive the Sales Manager, the same person who I negotiated with when I ordered by E90 in April 2006, offered almost $6K off the sticker price without even a blink. I told him what I had just drove was not a BMW. I may go to the dealership this Friday, I'll see if there is any improvement of the F30 since the LCI suspension redesign. I still doubt it is as good as an ATS.

The 2016 340 that the wife and I just picked up at the Welt 2 days ago definitely feels better in the handling dept then her previous 2014 335. Neither can compare to the older generations but the 340 does appear to be slightly improved.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

Don't know about in comparison to ATS as I will get to drive one soon enough. However, I drove a fully loaded F30 340i with 15K in Dinan options and most all factory performance bits. I came away hoping for more. The car even with the Dinan exhaust was quiet in comparison to my car. The car placed well but steering was dead. Even the extra OOMPh from Dinan tune and exhaust etc. geared to 8 speed auto did not produce the sensation I get from my Cobb tuned E92 N54 twin turbo. The car was just too sedated and docile for me. But I realize a dash of sports is all you get these days from BMW and I want a huge fistfull of sports.

God. Your post really has me missing my 2011 335is with DCT Cobb Pro-Tuned. Loved that car. It was an animal. I was planning on keeping it long term until an unfortunate accident took her away from me.

[Obioban]

I completely agree with Lutz here. In 2001, I wanted every product in BMW lineup. Today, they don't make a single thing I desire to own in the slightest. My last 7 cars were M cars, multiple of which were purchased new. Everything that brought me to the brand originally is thoroughly and completely dead and gone.

Originally Posted by raysspl

Not much of a fan of Lutz due to his stodgy & unimaginative approach (relatively) in the automotive industry

Yeah, when he was a driving force in the formation of the M division, or when he helped create the 3 series, or the Viper, or any of a multitude of the best cars of the last 40 years... stodgy and unimaginative.

Oh, wait, no-- one of the all time automotive greats, up there with Gordon Murray.

[bratwurst1]

I had a 2016 528i loaner for a couple days while X1 was in for service. It was a perfectly fine car, actually the N20 felt underwhelming in it but I could see how it was peppy enough for most. And the great racing V8 soundtrack I felt like I was at Monaco ☺The electric steering my wife proclaimed nicer than our e84. That about sums it up, to her the lack of feel was not noticable. The X1 to her has heavy steering not good feel. To me it is night and day how much the electric steering was dead. I suspect she represents 99 percent of folks BMW is targeting.

For the record my X1 subjectively from a feel standpoint handles way better than my 2014 Mustang GT. I'll have the X1 on track in a month at an HPDE event and see how it compares. I know it will be slower but curious how it carves the apexes.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I completely agree with Lutz here. In 2001, I wanted every product in BMW lineup. Today, they don't make a single thing I desire to own in the slightest. My last 7 cars were M cars, multiple of which were purchased new. Everything that brought me to the brand originally is thoroughly and completely dead and gone.



Yeah, when he was a driving force in the formation of the M division, or when he helped create the 3 series, or the Viper, or any of a multitude of the best cars of the last 40 years... stodgy and unimaginative.

Oh, wait, no-- one of the all time automotive greats, up there with Gordon Murray.

Are you sure you just didn't run out of money buying all those M cars? You know you want a brand new M4 GTS, just admit it Maybe an M2. Oh come on, you know you want one.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

Are you sure you just didn't run out of money buying all those M cars? You know you want a brand new M4 GTS, just admit it Maybe an M2. Oh come on, you know you want one.

I absolutely consider the M2 the least bad current BMW. But, I still despise how turbo engines drive (torque, lag), EPS is a deal breaker by itself for me, and the car looks... gaudy/overstyled... And I prefer my driver seat centered on the steering wheel and aimed straight ahead

Zero desire for the GTS-- once you're down to two seats, why would you not just get a real sports car? The CRT and/or CSL are much more to my taste (which is why my goal for mine is to get it to <3000 lbs with full interior (including functional back seat)/reasonable volume exhaust). Taking a car that's larger than an e39 5 series and making it only seat 2 people just seems stupid to me.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I absolutely consider the M2 the least bad current BMW. But, I still despise how turbo engines drive (torque, lag), EPS is a deal breaker by itself for me, and the car looks... gaudy/overstyled... And I prefer my driver seat centered on the steering wheel and aimed straight ahead

Zero desire for the GTS-- once you're down to two seats, why would you not just get a real sports car? The CRT and/or CSL are much more to my taste (which is why my goal for mine is to get it to <3000 lbs with full interior (including functional back seat)/reasonable volume exhaust). Taking a car that's larger than an e39 5 series and making it only seat 2 people just seems stupid to me.

Well there are probably no new BMWs in your future. NA engines and HPS are history. Your weight requirements are probably gone too given the safety regulations. Take good care of your amazing examples of BMW of yore.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

Well there are probably no new BMWs in your future. NA engines and HPS are history. Your weight requirements are probably gone too given the safety regulations. Take good care of your amazing examples of BMW of yore.

Agreed

It's sad, as a former very long term/hard core fan of BMW.

[Serious]

I think the current M cars are better than ever. No way would I ever want to go back to my old e46 or e36. The new stuff is just so fast, so comfortable, has real multi piston caliper brakes, more reliable, and cheaper if you factor inflation.

I think BMW is on the right track and their cars are better than ever before. I don't really like the f10 5 series but I bet the g30 will be great once it's half carbon fiber construction like the new 7. Even the i3 is pretty great as a city run around.

I think some people just get so attached to the past theyre blinded to how good the new stuff is.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Serious

I think the current M cars are better than ever. No way would I ever want to go back to my old e46 or e36. The new stuff is just so fast, so comfortable, has real multi piston caliper brakes, more reliable, and cheaper if you factor inflation.

I think BMW is on the right track and their cars are better than ever before. I don't really like the f10 5 series but I bet the g30 will be great once it's half carbon fiber construction like the new 7. Even the i3 is pretty great as a city run around.

I think some people just get so attached to the past theyre blinded to how good the new stuff is.

The new stuff is "better" in almost every objective way, correct. It is the subjective things people have varying views on. Many don't want their sporty cars to be more comfortable, as an example. For you, you like that. For others, they don't. It's the subjective things people will debate as to whether BMW is building "better" cars or not. I tend to agree with you... I like the newer cars more. Having said that, I like my M2 the most because it's kind of a blend between new generation features/performance with a bit more of the older school size/feel.

[Serious]

Originally Posted by gthal

The new stuff is "better" in almost every objective way, correct. It is the subjective things people have varying views on. Many don't want their sporty cars to be more comfortable, as an example. For you, you like that. For others, they don't. It's the subjective things people will debate as to whether BMW is building "better" cars or not. I tend to agree with you... I like the newer cars more. Having said that, I like my M2 the most because it's kind of a blend between new generation features/performance with a bit more of the older school size/feel.

M2 is great. I've looked at getting one recently. I think one of the big turnoffs with the e46 especially now is owners. They've become so cheap any idiot can go buy one now. It's impossible to find a nice car anymore, they're all just beat up and slammed. The owners I've encountered tend to be douches as well.

oh well, just my perception.