[Hydrostream]

We had a local mother orphan her young kids about a month ago because she wasn’t wearing a seatbelt. Life’s a gamble but man…

[Slowphiveo]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

My position is if you are an adult, you have a right to choose what to do with you body as you see fit. I think your observation of elitism on display in this thread is well founded. The argument against your posts are the "societal costs of others not wearing a seat belt".
Well, let's expand on that. Where does the line of societal protectionism end and individual rights begin?

How about those who smoke or vape?
How about those who overeat?
How about those who eat fast food?
Drink soda?
Drink alcohol?
Take illegal drugs?
Rock climb?
Hike and get lost?
Drive in inclement weather when they lack the skill to do so or don't use the proper equipment ( i.e. snow tires)?
Ride motorcycles?

All these limited list of activities, when they go bad and affect a person's health, have a societal and insurance rates impact. Where is the line drawn?

I 100% agree that you should absolutely have the right to do all of those things if you choose to do so. I also believe that insurance companies should be able to deny you if you do intentionally stupid shit. If you eat 15 big Macs a day, your health insurance should deny you. If you take illegal drugs and die...no loss to me. If you drink 2 handles of JD every day and get liver disease...denied. Freedom gives you the absolute right to be a fuckwad. It does not give you the right to make me pay for it.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Slowphiveo

I 100% agree that you should absolutely have the right to do all of those things if you choose to do so. I also believe that insurance companies should be able to deny you if you do intentionally stupid shit. If you eat 15 big Macs a day, your health insurance should deny you. If you take illegal drugs and die...no loss to me. If you drink 2 handles of JD every day and get liver disease...denied. Freedom gives you the absolute right to be a fuckwad. It does not give you the right to make me pay for it.

But you probably do something that I think is fuckwadish. That's the point. With the law of averages, it all evens out.

And more to the point, how does your insurance company know you drink 2 handles of Jack Daniels a day, or eat 15 Big Macs a day, or take illegal drugs? Are you ready for the RFID monitor you have to wear that tracks your calorie intake, blood alcohol level, brain activity when you get smoked up? Your position of monitor and control is stupid.

[BlkGS]

People who refuse to wear a seatbelt are a great example of why all the idealistic goals in the world don't actually work.

There's no actual reason to not wear one other than "I don't like it". Huge amounts of reasons to wear it. But despite overwhelming evidence, they choose not to wear one. This kind of chaotic thinking is what ensures that all the idealistic ideas of the world won't work because some people will just buck the system for no reason other than to do it.

Heres a "fun" philosophical question. Two people are driving, one is just over the legal limit for booze, the other sober but doesn't have a seatbelt on. They get into an accident, the person without a seatbelt on is flung out of the car, is impaled on a sign and does while shitting themselves. Who's the victim?

[tracknut]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Heres a "fun" philosophical question. Two people are driving, one is just over the legal limit for booze, the other sober but doesn't have a seatbelt on. They get into an accident, the person without a seatbelt on is flung out of the car, is impaled on a sign and does while shitting themselves. Who's the victim?

I must not be reading this right, or missing the subtleties. Isn't the primary victim the sober guy that died on the sign? There are other more minor victims, like the guy's family, the drunk guy himself who has to live with this his whole life, the taxpayers who have to pay for a cleanup crew and a new sign, etc.

When I ran a track club, we ended up in a bit of a similar scenario. We decided, before it was common at track days, to require roll bars on most convertible cars. It caused a pretty big shakeup, with lots of complaints to us and many folks opting to drive with other clubs. One offer I received several times was "It's my own life, can't I just sign a release that would absolve you of any liability if I roll my car over and die?".

I did not bother to ask my lawyer about generating such a release, but it would be similar to the release one would write regarding legally not wearing seat belts, I think. I.e. pretty hard to write, and impossible to enforce.

[Slowphiveo]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

But you probably do something that I think is fuckwadish. That's the point. With the law of averages, it all evens out.

And more to the point, how does your insurance company know you drink 2 handles of Jack Daniels a day, or eat 15 Big Macs a day, or take illegal drugs? Are you ready for the RFID monitor you have to wear that tracks your calorie intake, blood alcohol level, brain activity when you get smoked up? Your position of monitor and control is stupid.

If you weigh 500lbs with a cholesterol number of 500, you don't have a genetic disorder, you have a stuffing food in your mouth hole problem. If you have scirosis of the liver then you drink like a fish. If your lungs are black from smoking tar, then you are a smoker. If you get in a car accident and become a meat souffle, you didn't have your sealtbelt on. You don't need RFID tracking or government intervention into your private life to figure any of that stuff out. That's what I'm saying...obvious, stupid, preventable shit. I'm not talking about regular everyday issues. Not wearing your seatbelt is the most obvious of those as your car records everything you do. That ship has already sailed. In a wreck, your car will sell you out.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Slowphiveo

If you weigh 500lbs with a cholesterol number of 500, you don't have a genetic disorder, you have a stuffing food in your mouth hole problem. If you have scirosis of the liver then you drink like a fish. If your lungs are black from smoking tar, then you are a smoker. If you get in a car accident and become a meat souffle, you didn't have your sealtbelt on. You don't need RFID tracking or government intervention into your private life to figure any of that stuff out. That's what I'm saying...obvious, stupid, preventable shit. I'm not talking about regular everyday issues. Not wearing your seatbelt is the most obvious of those as your car records everything you do. That ship has already sailed. In a wreck, your car will sell you out.

According to the Net, just 8% of drivers don't wear a seatbelt. Of those 8-percent, 47% become a fatality in a car accident. So, just 3.8% of drivers unbelted die in auto accidents. And you are insisting this is a significant problem of the insurance industry and make your rates increase.

Your scenarios are ridiculous, no one is monitored for their bad habits, but would be if you want to start tailoring individual's insurance premiums based on their bad habits. Everyone has bad habits.

[Slowphiveo]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

According to the Net, just 8% of drivers don't wear a seatbelt. Of those 8-percent, 47% become a fatality in a car accident. So, just 3.8% of drivers unbelted die in auto accidents. And you are insisting this is a significant problem of the insurance industry and make your rates increase.

Your scenarios are ridiculous, no one is monitored for their bad habits, but would be if you want to start tailoring individual's insurance premiums based on their bad habits. Everyone has bad habits.

Well in the US there are 239 million licensed drivers in the US...so 3.8% is not an insignificant number. I think your stats are way off. That would come out to like 9 million fatalities a year in the US. At last check it was near 43k people a year died in car wrecks.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Slowphiveo

Well in the US there are 239 million licensed drivers in the US...so 3.8% is not an insignificant number. I think your stats are way off. That would come out to like 9 million fatalities a year in the US. At last check it was near 43k people a year died in car wrecks.

Right, they die even when belted in.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

People who refuse to wear a seatbelt are a great example of why all the idealistic goals in the world don't actually work.

There's no actual reason to not wear one other than "I don't like it". Huge amounts of reasons to wear it. But despite overwhelming evidence, they choose not to wear one. This kind of chaotic thinking is what ensures that all the idealistic ideas of the world won't work because some people will just buck the system for no reason other than to do it.

Heres a "fun" philosophical question. Two people are driving, one is just over the legal limit for booze, the other sober but doesn't have a seatbelt on. They get into an accident, the person without a seatbelt on is flung out of the car, is impaled on a sign and does while shitting themselves. Who's the victim?

Well, you didn't say who was at fault for the accident. I'll assume the drunk driver was at fault. That would make the unbelted driver the victim.

[j0wpa]

Always wear my seatbelt and don’t even start moving the car until everyone is buckled.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by tracknut

I must not be reading this right, or missing the subtleties. Isn't the primary victim the sober guy that died on the sign? There are other more minor victims, like the guy's family, the drunk guy himself who has to live with this his whole life, the taxpayers who have to pay for a cleanup crew and a new sign, etc.

When I ran a track club, we ended up in a bit of a similar scenario. We decided, before it was common at track days, to require roll bars on most convertible cars. It caused a pretty big shakeup, with lots of complaints to us and many folks opting to drive with other clubs. One offer I received several times was "It's my own life, can't I just sign a release that would absolve you of any liability if I roll my car over and die?".

I did not bother to ask my lawyer about generating such a release, but it would be similar to the release one would write regarding legally not wearing seat belts, I think. I.e. pretty hard to write, and impossible to enforce.

You are missing the subtlety. The question is, the guy who purposely allowed himself to be killed, is he a victim? What if he's the one who caused the accident? Had that person work their seatbelt per the responsibility of the privilege of driving a car, they would survive. It's the equivalent of going into a cage full of hungry lions wearing a meat suit.
Y track clubs all subscribed to the broomstick rule. Your head had to be under a broomstick place between the windshield header and whatever "factory roll structure" the car had. Very few convertibles had anything that would pass.

[tracknut]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Y track clubs all subscribed to the broomstick rule. Your head had to be under a broomstick place between the windshield header and whatever "factory roll structure" the car had. Very few convertibles had anything that would pass.

In the early 2000's, that was not the normal case for clubs in CA

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

You are missing the subtlety. The question is, the guy who purposely allowed himself to be killed, is he a victim? What if he's the one who caused the accident? Had that person work their seatbelt per the responsibility of the privilege of driving a car, they would survive. It's the equivalent of going into a cage full of hungry lions wearing a meat suit.
Y track clubs all subscribed to the broomstick rule. Your head had to be under a broomstick place between the windshield header and whatever "factory roll structure" the car had. Very few convertibles had anything that would pass.

Was the impaled driver driving a 1956 Chevy Nomad?

[Vindicator3]

I always wear mine and since I started driving (which was a long time ago) no one is allowed to ride in a car I'm driving unless they are wearing theirs.

[tekphobius]

6 years as a firefighter. Those that don't wear seatbelts are f'n stupid.

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by Coupsoup

Not wearing seatbelts is like peak boomer mentality.

My father (Boomer) never wore a seatbelt. Official rationale, the one time he felt compelled to provide one, was that his gut was too big (he’s overweight) and it was too tight on him.

He also grew up in the era where “men were men”, like John Wayne “A man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do” type. You don’t wear safety glasses when operating a buzzsaw and slicing wood, if you lost an eye well that’s part of the game son. Wear that eyepatch like a badge of pride (his Uncle did when he lost his eye cutting wood). Worrying about what might happen to you is a weakness that might cause injury, death or worse betray your masculinity.

In addition to not wearing his seatbelt and being overweight he:

-has asthma and doesn’t always fill his puffer prescription
-does not exercise
-smoked until he was in his 50’s
-drank 2L of Coca Cola every day
-got diabetes
-had a bunch of kidney stones
-needs glasses to drive but does not wear them
-uses his cell phone SCREEN TO FACE while driving even though he CANNOT see the cell phone (note: he needs glasses)
-blew out two of his knees and put off surgery because the longer he waits the longer his new knees will last
-uses pool floaties to fall onto the ground on since he can no longer bend over (sadly cannot get up on his own either which makes this even more interesting)
-would rather piss on the side of the road than stop at a McDonalds restroom (he’s incontinent)
-nearly died of heart failure because he needed to wait a few weeks for contractors to fix his roof (because that was more important than seeing his doctor when he suddenly couldn’t breath)
-didn’t bother doing his colon cancer screening years ago and guess what? He now has cancer according to the gigantic tumour the doctor’s pulled out of him
-walked (walkered?) out of his doctor’s office instead of getting his cancer diagnosis and treatment plan because the receptionist was “rude to him”

I’m pretty sure he doesn’t think he’s going to get in a car accident.

[Brandoch]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

My father (Boomer) never wore a seatbelt. Official rationale, the one time he felt compelled to provide one, was that his gut was too big (he’s overweight) and it was too tight on him.

He also grew up in the era where “men were men”, like John Wayne “A man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do” type. You don’t wear safety glasses when operating a buzzsaw and slicing wood, if you lost an eye well that’s part of the game son. Wear that eyepatch like a badge of pride (his Uncle did when he lost his eye cutting wood). Worrying about what might happen to you is a weakness that might cause injury, death or worse betray your masculinity.

In addition to not wearing his seatbelt and being overweight he:

-has asthma and doesn’t always fill his puffer prescription
-does not exercise
-smoked until he was in his 50’s
-drank 2L of Coca Cola every day
-got diabetes
-had a bunch of kidney stones
-needs glasses to drive but does not wear them
-uses his cell phone SCREEN TO FACE while driving even though he CANNOT see the cell phone (note: he needs glasses)
-blew out two of his knees and put off surgery because the longer he waits the longer his new knees will last
-uses pool floaties to fall onto the ground on since he can no longer bend over (sadly cannot get up on his own either which makes this even more interesting)
-would rather piss on the side of the road than stop at a McDonalds restroom (he’s incontinent)
-nearly died of heart failure because he needed to wait a few weeks for contractors to fix his roof (because that was more important than seeing his doctor when he suddenly [...]

That's some dedication and determination right thar.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

My father (Boomer) never wore a seatbelt. Official rationale, the one time he felt compelled to provide one, was that his gut was too big (he’s overweight) and it was too tight on him.

He also grew up in the era where “men were men”, like John Wayne “A man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do” type. You don’t wear safety glasses when operating a buzzsaw and slicing wood, if you lost an eye well that’s part of the game son. Wear that eyepatch like a badge of pride (his Uncle did when he lost his eye cutting wood). Worrying about what might happen to you is a weakness that might cause injury, death or worse betray your masculinity.

In addition to not wearing his seatbelt and being overweight he:

-has asthma and doesn’t always fill his puffer prescription
-does not exercise
-smoked until he was in his 50’s
-drank 2L of Coca Cola every day
-got diabetes
-had a bunch of kidney stones
-needs glasses to drive but does not wear them
-uses his cell phone SCREEN TO FACE while driving even though he CANNOT see the cell phone (note: he needs glasses)
-blew out two of his knees and put off surgery because the longer he waits the longer his new knees will last
-uses pool floaties to fall onto the ground on since he can no longer bend over (sadly cannot get up on his own either which makes this even more interesting)
-would rather piss on the side of the road than stop at a McDonalds restroom (he’s incontinent)
-nearly died of heart failure because he needed to wait a few weeks for contractors to fix his roof (because that was more important than seeing his doctor when he suddenly couldn’t breath)
-didn’t bother doing his colon cancer screening years ago and guess what? He now has cancer according to the gigantic tumour the doctor’s pulled out of him
-walked (walkered?) out of his doctor’s office instead of getting his cancer diagnosis and treatment plan because the receptionist was “rude to him”

I’m pretty sure he doesn’t think he’s going to get in a car accident.

How old is he? 60 or 80+?

[cmyx6go]

I always wear my seatbelt. It's something I don't even have to think about doing, I automatically reach for it the moment I get in the car. Although I think it's silly not to, I won't belittle those that don't. But...

The wife of one of my employees refuses to wear hers. They have a 5 or 6 year old autistic daughter who was non verbal until not long ago. I'm not sure why the conversation came up but I really had to bite my tongue. The wife is the primary driver to school, therapy and whatever else. How irresponsible for her to drive her daughter around and not be belted in? God forbid they have an accident and the mother goes through the windshield. Any child would be traumatized, I can't imagine what it would do to this child.

[Neptune7]

Guys, wear a seatbelt. Your family wants you home alive every day. Your friends do too.

It's as simple as that.

[tekphobius]

Originally Posted by Neptune7

Guys, wear a seatbelt. Your family wants you home alive every day. Your friends do too.

It's as simple as that.

True that. Don't wear one and it may save us some time and effort not having to cut you out of your car. The downside is that your family gets awfully torn up seeing you lying on the side of the road, lifeless.