[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by DrVenture

Let's not overlook that ICE has had 100 years to mature. Serious development of BEV are only about a decade in. Already went from tiny cars with 80 miles range to regular vehicles of all sorts with over 200 miles usable range.

The advantages of EVs are hard to dispute. Weight distribution. Traction. Low center of gravity. Torque. All that remains is forward advancement in battery tech, and it will be game over.

If I know car guys, they are going to be all over the fastest and latest, no matter what they say today.

Remember that today's heavy high performance ICE and EV owe tire companies a huge amount of gratitude. Without the performance none of the fat pigs of today could perform like they do.

[yousefnjr]

Originally Posted by robopp

One positive is that the old F80/2 discounts/lease support will be back! I miss those days.

I’ll have 1 EV M3 lease for 0 down and 600/mo please and thanks

[PatrickNelson]

Originally Posted by Mani59

1000 hp in a car is a lot of fun, especially when going for 1-100 but what about when that first corner comes bearing down on you? You need the precision, agility and controllability that you find in our most advanced race cars and well tested.

[NSX2M4]

All cars can turn, stop being Ricky Bobby and Jean Gerrard here. There are two types of track people... Sponsored racecar drivers who don't even bother commenting on these useless boards and people who make bad decisions to total their only car on a racetrack unsponsored to feed their megalomaniac ego.
You're M3 from 2022 OR 2006 isn't the pinnacle of performance. It's old already.You can make them faster, sure. But, this is about turn key performance to use on the regular.

[DrVenture]

Originally Posted by fanofbmwe46

... How are folks who have bought M cars in the past and have a deep connection to the way they used to be coping with this new future?

Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. The five stages of grief. You are looking at 5 pages of it.

[NSX2M4]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Remember that today's heavy high performance ICE and EV owe tire companies a huge amount of gratitude. Without the performance none of the fat pigs of today could perform like they do.

I would pin my 7500 pound 3 row SUV against your F32 any day of the week.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by NSX2M4

I would pin my 7500 pound 3 row SUV against your F32 any day of the week.

No doubt.

[Cortexiphan]

[QUOTE=Scrapula;31847887]

Originally Posted by Panscan340

The Lucid Sapphire is beyond plaid performance plus it handles extremely well. It’s the fastest production car at the moment. All that and massaging seats. This should be what BMW is striving for.

Even A Pilars are rattling. And awful reliability. BMW should never strive for that.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Remember that today's heavy high performance ICE and EV owe tire companies a huge amount of gratitude. Without the performance none of the fat pigs of today could perform like they do.

I think tire companies owe more gratitude to car companies. Without them there would be no place to use them.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

For those craving the "feeling", a sub 3000lb Miata or Lotus will provide a better "experience " than any BMW on that "driver's road." And they too feel no regret when the EVs slaughter them every day on the freeway on ramp. Better yet, if you want a pure weekend track experience, get yourself a high performance go-kart for a whole new level of fun. Different people, different priorities.

Not everyone has a second pair of kidneys at home to replace after driving a Lotus. Sure, having the asphalt practically beneath you has its appeal, but a Lotus is a rough machine with serious limitations.

The Miata, often praised for its 50/50 weight distribution (as it followed the BMW recipe), has somewhat been recognized for delivering a similar driving feel. But let’s be real—it will never come close to a 2 or 3 Series in terms of overall driving experience. This is what BMW has always done best: delivering a sheer pleasure sporty driving machine while still offering a well sized trunk and accommodating more than two passengers in a refined interior made of quality materials, with proper insulation and luxury features (something Tesla doesn’t even come close to). The Miata vs. BMW comparison is an overblown argument, embraced by some to a degree that simply isn’t justified or true.

And EVs "slaughtering" them on freeway on-ramps?
Sure, if flooring it in a straight line defines excitement for you. And that’s only until your battery drains—every full-throttle acceleration eats into your range. Better make sure you cut off your radio, heating, and other goodies to squeeze out a few extra miles.

Oh, and if you’re in a cold climate where -20°C is the norm for months? Enjoy your reduced range, longer charging times, and the occasional frozen charging port. Meanwhile, the BMW ICE driver will be waving at you from his fast-filling, playful, and well-balanced driving machine.

Carry on…

[ubercruise]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

And EVs "slaughtering" them on freeway on-ramps?
Sure, if flooring it in a straight line defines excitement for you.

Does it not for you? I like feeling the G's in my EV when I hit the accelerator much more than doing the same in a Corolla, yes.

Originally Posted by Teutonic

And that’s only until your battery drains—every full-throttle acceleration eats into your range. Better make sure you cut off your radio, heating, and other goodies to squeeze out a few extra miles. Oh, and if you’re in a cold climate where -20°C is the norm for months? Enjoy your reduced range, longer charging times, and the occasional frozen charging port. Meanwhile, the BMW ICE driver will be waving at you from his fast-filling, playful, and well-balanced driving machine.

Yet millions of people manage despite all this. Yeah if you're constantly taking long road trips then an EV might not be for you. I don't care that much about filling up fast on a long road trip anyhow, I'm not doing the Gumball race. You could say I wave at everyone at a gas station on my daily commute if you wanted to see the other side of the narrative.

It's fine if you dislike EVs and will never buy one. But I feel like at this point the "EVs aren't viable!" argument is getting pretty tired. Yes there's still tons of room for improvement, they won't fit the use case for everyone, but they already work for tons and tons of people.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by ubercruise

Does it not for you? I like feeling the G's in my EV when I hit the accelerator much more than doing the same in a Corolla, yes.



Yet millions of people manage despite all this. Yeah if you're constantly taking long road trips then an EV might not be for you. I don't care that much about filling up fast on a long road trip anyhow, I'm not doing the Gumball race. You could say I wave at everyone at a gas station on my daily commute if you wanted to see the other side of the narrative.

It's fine if you dislike EVs and will never buy one. But I feel like at this point the "EVs aren't viable!" argument is getting pretty tired. Yes there's still tons of room for improvement, they won't fit the use case for everyone, but they already work for tons and tons of people.

No, the EV doesn't do it for me. Any electric motor does that. I want an engaging car, not a train. There's nothing new here, moving on. If A to B in a soulless machine is what you want, you've made a good choice.

An M5 takes the gas from the tank, pumps it into the engine, gets sparked, exploded, moves the pistons, sends it to the gears, and transmits power to the wheels — and still manages insane performance numbers. Just think about the whole process! THAT IS TRUE ENGINEERING!

An EV just takes the juice and sends that impulse to the wheel motor. Over 100-year-old technology, and yet still very unreliable. It’s fine for a tram, constantly drawing power from the grid, but a battery-powered car? And the environmental cost of producing those batteries? It’s literally worse for the planet than oil will ever be.

Phoenix, Arizona is not Canada. In the last four years, I’ve rescued two people stuck in their Teslas. One was a friend who bought a Model X, but it ran out of juice when it was -40°C (or °F, they’re the same at that point). He sold it the next week and bought a Porsche. He’ll never look at EVs again and admitted it was a dumb decision.

Another guy was stranded on the road on my way from Jasper, and his car just died. dark and cold. We become friends. He also ditched his Model 3.
Of course it works for millions of people. Only California has 38 million people or so. But that is not for everyone and not in every climate.

EVs might work in your city — they're limited, easy to control, and grid-dependent. But freedom? Not so much.

Either way, enjoy it. But also stop preaching how good it is and how old ICE is. You are wrong. Is not that good and ICE will beat it in so many aspects. Not everyone lives a grid dependent life. Only the thought that I am range dependent and unable to carry two jugs of freedom with me in my trunk, makes me repudiate the thought of owning one.

[ubercruise]

Ok fine, didn't want to make a giant quote reply post but I guess we'll do it anyway...

Originally Posted by Teutonic

No, the EV doesn't do it for me. Any electric motor does that. I want an engaging car, not a train. There's nothing new here, moving on. If A to B in a soulless machine is what you want, you've made a good choice.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to that.

Originally Posted by Teutonic

An M5 takes the gas from the tank, pumps it into the engine, gets sparked, exploded, moves the pistons, sends it to the gears, and transmits power to the wheels — and still manages insane performance numbers. THAT IS TRUE ENGINEERING!

An EV just takes the juice and sends that impulse to the wheel motor. Over 100-year-old technology, and yet still very unreliable. It’s fine for a tram, constantly drawing power from the grid, but a battery-powered car?

Uh, the ICE is also 100 year old technology and we don't need to even bring up reliability with respect to maintaining a gas engine. Electric motors are also engineering and acting like it isn't does a disservice to everyone who's built and designed these machines. Complexity doesn't mean better engineering, in fact I'd argue the inverse - electric motors are way more efficient than combustion engines.

But both have their merits and have seen awesome advances in technology, efficiency, and power delivery. Again, it's not binary, both can be cool propulsion methods.

Originally Posted by Teutonic

And the environmental cost of producing those batteries? It’s literally worse for the planet than oil will ever be.

Has been debunked countless times.

Originally Posted by Teutonic

Phoenix, Arizona is not Canada. In the last four years, I’ve rescued two people stuck in their Teslas. One was a friend who bought a Model X, but it ran out of juice when it was -40°C (or °F, they’re the same at that point). He sold it the next week and bought a Porsche. He’ll never look at EVs again and admitted it was a dumb decision.

Another guy was stranded on the road on my way from Jasper, and his car just died. dark and cold. He also ditched his Model 3.
Of course it works for millions of people. Only California has 38 million people or so. But that is not for everyone and not in every climate.

I used to live in Minnesota. EV worked fine. It's not a big deal. Used to have ICE/diesel work trucks that would give us more trouble in the cold winters there, honestly. I had to drive a coworker to work several times because his ICE car wouldn't start. Doesn't mean I think ICE cars suck or are unusable. It happens. Anecdotes are not data - millions of people manage EVs in cold weather without being stranded. Now reduced range in cold weather, that actually is a legitimate sticking point if you're someone who drives long distances often.

Originally Posted by Teutonic

EVs might work in your city — they're limited, easy to control, and grid-dependent. But freedom? Not so much.

Literally have taken it on a cross country road trip, but ok. Guess that's not free enough lol.

Originally Posted by Teutonic

either way, enjoy it. But also stop preaching how good it is and how old ICE is. You are wrong. Is not that good and ICE will beat it in so many aspects. Not everyone lives a grid dependent life.

Always hilarious to hear someone sharing their opinion and considering it fact. Usually know where the conversation is going to end up pretty quickly. Almost everything you mentioned as fact can be debunked and has been ad nauseum, or is just your personal opinion or view. Of course EVs have their drawbacks, nobody is going to claim they're perfect or better than ICE in every way. I still own an ICE car myself, I'm no "ICE hater". But if you refuse to see things in a nuanced way and it's all "EV bad, ICE good" then nobody here is going to change your mind. But thanks for coming on a thread specifically about an EV to talk about how much you prefer your ICE car, and explaining to people who daily EVs why their own cars don't work for them.

Sigh, moving on...

[AshwinLB]

Originally Posted by Ibiza

Nothing about a 2 door coupe, as apparently the 4 series platform will not carry over—which will be sad. Any mention about a 6 resurrection to fill the void left by the outgoing 4 and 8 series?

8 series is getting a new gen in 07/26 (G75/G76/G77/G93)

[ubercruise]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

Debunked by the brainwashed mass media?

Just google lithium extraction sites in Chile Peru, Bolivia and go on images. You will get the picture. Read more about unethical processes involved in sourcing certain materials—child labor, economic abuse, social exploitation, and political coercion in regions where defenseless people are forced to live under appalling conditions.

I don't want to hack the thread, just wanted to get in as I am tired of this cute, clean EV lie. Read more and do your homework and stop hiding behind the word "debunked."

Wow, a two in one on "mass media, brainwashed, sheep etc." and "do your own research". I did my own research. Many others who are SMEs in this type of field did. Nobody is saying battery mining is a clean or nice process. But when you do a lifecycle analysis of producing a battery car, it's a net positive for the environment over a typical car's lifespan. Up front - yes the manufacturing is harsher, but around 15-25k miles, depending on source, the electric car reaches parity and starts having a lesser environmental impact than a comparable gas car. Also highly dependent on where you source components and battery composition. There are some chemistries that don't require as much of the "bad mining" as others. BMW supposedly does not source from conflict regions or use poor labor conditions in their battery materials, but that's from their own press release so while I'd imagine it's verifiable, I haven't done so myself yet.

And this isn't even getting into the impacts that oil production has had on society and the environment.

But it's all kind of beside the point - I never once mentioned the environmental impact of EVs in describing why I've enjoyed mine. It wasn't the main driver in my choice, hell, to be honest it was hardly part of my criteria. I'm not gonna sit here and claim driving EVs will save the world. But it's a nice bonus that it doesn't produce emissions/smog when driving and will generally be cleaner over its lifecycle. Regardless there are other threads that dive into this topic which are a better venue than this model-specific one.

To try and steer the discussion back on track... I am very interested in how this chassis/setup might apply to future EV models. I'm interested in the upcoming iX3 which is supposed to have an M-lite trim. I don't know that something as hardcore as this M3 would need to be applied to the SUV like the ICE models do. But I could see a slightly detuned or watered down version becoming the iX3M eventually. We haven't even really seen the new iX3 fully yet, but if they can make a potential M model look kinda like what Cadillac did with the Lyriq-V, lowering it to be almost wagonish, I'd be all over that. Don't know if they'd go quad motor for the SUV, but even being lighter on power yet having the dynamic advantages of a quad motor would be a fun setup.

Granted, they could also just do a Touring version of this M3 EV and I'd be all over that, but chances of that coming to the US I'd wager are slim.

[Kevin_The_Clean1]

Looking forward to seeing what this new BEV from the M division can really deliver on in all regards.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by Teutonic

No, the EV doesn't do it for me. Any electric motor does that. I want an engaging car, not a train. There's nothing new here, moving on. If A to B in a soulless machine is what you want, you've made a good choice.

Perhaps changing your electric razor or hair dryer in for a gas powered one would be your cup of tea?


An M5 takes the gas from the tank, pumps it into the engine, gets sparked, exploded, moves the pistons, sends it to the gears, and transmits power to the wheels — and still manages insane performance numbers. Just think about the whole process! THAT IS TRUE ENGINEERING!

Interestingly enough, I borrowed my friend's 2022 M5 Comp for a few days and missed the instant torque of the i4 M50. Yes the M5 is faster on paper, but my i4 M50 time of 11.48 @ 121.5 is still no slouch. But in everyday driving, and part throttle responsiveness, the M5 feels irritatingly sluggish. It is that big of a difference. Look at the Hagerty M3CS vs C63s Vs Tesla M3P, the M3 was the quickest in the quarter mile. But without power braking and launch control, it was dead last. That illustrates the every day driving throttle lag that you will get with an ICE drivetrain.

An EV just takes the juice and sends that impulse to the wheel motor. Over 100-year-old technology, and yet still very unreliable. It’s fine for a tram, constantly drawing power from the grid, but a battery-powered car? And the environmental cost of producing those batteries? It’s literally worse for the planet than oil will ever be.


Just wow. Are you sure you have researched any of this? Can you imagine if your 20yr old washing machine was powered by a gas engine instead of an electric motor. Which do you think would be more reliable? Many studies show that EVs come out ahead of ICE in terms of being environmentally friendly. And that is even disregarding the fact that many of us have solar panels.

Phoenix, Arizona is not Canada. In the last four years, I’ve rescued two people stuck in their Teslas. One was a friend who bought a Model X, but it ran out of juice when it was -40°C (or °F, they’re the same at that point). He sold it the next week and bought a Porsche. He’ll never look at EVs again and admitted it was a dumb decision.


I go to the desert all the time. I drove 4000 miles in one month. Vegas, Zion National Park, Grand Canyon, Laughlin. It was awesome having an EV. Being able to cool off the car in the hot parking lot with no engine having to run before I even entered it was awesome.

Another guy was stranded on the road on my way from Jasper, and his car just died. dark and cold. We become friends. He also ditched his Model 3.
Of course it works for millions of people. Only California has 38 million people or so. But that is not for everyone and not in every climate.

EVs might work in your city — they're limited, easy to control, and grid-dependent. But freedom? Not so much.

Either way, enjoy it. But also stop preaching how good it is and how old ICE is. You are wrong. Is not that good and ICE will beat it in so many aspects. Not everyone lives a grid dependent life. Only the thought that I am range dependent and unable to carry two jugs of freedom with me in my trunk, makes me repudiate the thought of owning one.

There is no need to preach. Studies show that most people will not go back to ICE vehicles once they have owned an EV. Freedom? It takes 5 seconds to plug in an EV that will then be ready and charged in the morning. That saves you the time and inconvenience of dealing with lines and dirty smelly gas pumps. Even if you drive over 200 miles/day, (73000 miles/year), an EV can perfectly suit your needs. Look at the amount of energy that is spent shipping the oil from another country, or across the state to a refinery, via, ships, trucks, trains..then to the gas station. Then you have to drive to the gas station. Doesn't this seem rather prehistoric compared to energy being transported by wire right into your own garage? Even after all the gas subsidies, you have to admit how inefficient the process of getting fuel to your gas car actually is.

[NSX2M4]

Automotive engineers are a whole lot smarter than an idiot racing around in a parking lot with some cones set up or on a track when REAL racers aren't competing .It's transportation not rocket science, even though some simple minded people think it is and they're the fastest in the land.
I can't wait for an all electric M3 and you can call a spade a spade all you wish. Really looking forward to German engineered handling on this platform.

[DrVenture]

100 years was mentioned as how long ICE tech has had to improve, not as a criticism of some sort. EVs are at the beginning of their development as mass produced consumer transportation. Ice had a substantial head start, and things are already starting to even out.

Most EV adherents are not arguing that spoons are better than forks, rather that each has its own use case. Some of the counter-arguments seem to amount to, "oh yeah, well just try and eat soup with a fork".

[NSX2M4]

Originally Posted by DrVenture

100 years was mentioned as how long ICE tech has had to improve, not as a criticism of some sort. EVs are at the beginning of their development as mass produced consumer transportation. Ice had a substantial head start, and things are already starting to even out.

Most EV adherents are not arguing that spoons are better than forks, rather that each has its own use case. Some of these arguments seem to amount to, "oh yeah, well just try and eat soup with a fork".

Dr Venture, is your helper bot gas powered or electric?

[DrVenture]

Originally Posted by NSX2M4

Dr Venture, is your helper bot gas powered or electric?

Nuclear.

Someone got mad at me once in a debate and said , "I'll bet you aren't even a doctor".

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

[/I]

There is no need to preach. Studies show that most people will not go back to ICE vehicles once they have owned an EV. Freedom? It takes 5 seconds to plug in an EV that will then be ready and charged in the morning. That saves you the time and inconvenience of dealing with lines and dirty smelly gas pumps. Even if you drive over 200 miles/day, (73000 miles/year), an EV can perfectly suit your needs. Look at the amount of energy that is spent shipping the oil from another country, or across the state to a refinery, via, ships, trucks, trains..then to the gas station. Then you have to drive to the gas station. Doesn't this seem rather prehistoric compared to energy being transported by wire right into your own garage? Even after all the gas subsidies, you have to admit how inefficient the process of getting fuel to your gas car actually is.

Do you mind if I choose not to engage with your message, which feels overly subjective, unrelated, and filled with immature, out of place analogies that don't seem to serve a meaningful point?

The comparison you’re making between EVs and ICE vehicles doesn't really address the nuances of the discussion, and I’m not inclined to delve into it further.

Thank you for understanding.