[sakson]

Predictable. That's what you get for losing your edge and going soft. You become just another luxury car brand. Don't expect brand loyalty anymore, people won't even think twice before moving on to Mercedes, Audi or Lexus, since they're pretty much all the same these days.

[Jono2112]

So it sounds like bmw financing is pushing cpo because its an oppotunity to milk a lease return that has already been profitable for more money. But if they dont improve lease offers and residuals on new cars, wont that bight them in the backside soon?
Bean counters going for the quick money for rhus year and not planning for the next?

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Or they buy the equivalent SUV model in this case the X3 as they have been doing in North America.

Or...you have a 228 that doesn't have 1/3 of the features as the equivalent A3 selling for 6-7K more...so you end up in Audi land as my girlfriend did over the weekend.

There's ~7 228s on the Classic BMW lot right now in Plano, TX - all of them are 36K or more. None have Xenons. Most don't have Navi. Or heated seats.

And yet...the A3 comes standard with more equipment and has a nicer interior...so that's the direction she went. She never even considered the 3er because it was much bigger than she wanted.

Not everyone in the US wants an SUV. Or a large sedan. Just sayin.

[Tomahawk]

So your girlfriend overpaid for a jetta? just saying. I realize they are technically competitors, but until the A3 becomes a fantastic RWD coupe, they are not competitors. The 228 is the the best all rounder out there, IMO. Its fun, fast and gets 36mpg. I'm 6'3 and my wife/kids can actually fit in back. I was miserable in the drivers seat of the A3.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Tomahawk

So your girlfriend overpaid for a jetta? just saying. I realize they are technically competitors, but until the A3 becomes a fantastic RWD coupe, they are not competitors. The 228 is the the best all rounder out there, IMO. Its fun, fast and gets 36mpg. I'm 6'3 and my wife/kids can actually fit in back. I was miserable in the drivers seat of the A3.

It doesn't feel like a Jetta to me - and my mom has one.

At the end of the day, the Audi hit more of what she was looking for - and sadly she doesn't care about RWD vs. FWD. The 2.0 quattro was pretty good performance and the peace of mind of AWD. Interior materials are nicer too...at least IMO.

[Zirenz2006]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Or...you have a 228 that doesn't have 1/3 of the features as the equivalent A3 selling for 6-7K more...so you end up in Audi land as my girlfriend did over the weekend.

There's ~7 228s on the Classic BMW lot right now in Plano, TX - all of them are 36K or more. None have Xenons. Most don't have Navi. Or heated seats.

And yet...the A3 comes standard with more equipment and has a nicer interior...so that's the direction she went. She never even considered the 3er because it was much bigger than she wanted.

Not everyone in the US wants an SUV. Or a large sedan. Just sayin.

A3 interior is horrible imo

[Pentium]

Come on guys be supportive, it's our beloved BMW...

Just learn to over come two things in the future:
1. FWD Cars
2. AWD ///M Cars

Don't cry...yeah you will see a 2 Series FWD soon....

[David70]

Originally Posted by Tomahawk

So your girlfriend overpaid for a jetta? just saying. I realize they are technically competitors, but until the A3 becomes a fantastic RWD coupe, they are not competitors. The 228 is the the best all rounder out there, IMO. Its fun, fast and gets 36mpg. I'm 6'3 and my wife/kids can actually fit in back. I was miserable in the drivers seat of the A3.

Everyone has their opinions and platform sharing is very common. Imagine buying a 7 series and getting the same engine that comes in a 2 series.

Obviously if they cross shopped the A3/2 series to some level they are competitors whether or not you think they are.

I am interested in seeing a picture of you at 6'3" sitting in the front seat of a 2 series and your wife sitting behind you. I didn't think this would be possible.

[StatenEye]

Originally Posted by kevinlevrone

BMW needs to realize that their latest cars are simply ugly.

New X5 - easily looks worse than the previous generation

I was very disappointed by this. Although the interior is superior on the F15 they took all the beefyness out of the the X5 and made it look narrow, tall and weak. I was going to switch to the F15 from the E70 when they hit the CPO market but now I'm at a loss on what to do next. The E70 really was a work of art and looked aggressive and classy in the M variant. The new 7 is really bad but I do like the current 5 and 6.

[shivaswrath]

Originally Posted by Mdrei

There are at least 2 collecting dust on the dealer lot here in Long Island below MSRP. And this is Long Island where people love to pay sticker, LOL.

WTF! I'm driving over...(from NJ).

[Mdrei]

Originally Posted by sakson

Predictable. That's what you get for losing your edge and going soft. You become just another luxury car brand. Don't expect brand loyalty anymore, people won't even think twice before moving on to Mercedes, Audi or Lexus, since they're pretty much all the same these days.

Exactly. More options for us, the consumer.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Contrary to everybody's opinion because we are not doing what everybody else is doing BMW is not in trouble.

The markets say otherwise. The financial picture abruptly changed over a year ago and throughout the following 11 months and while BMW stock lost 47% of its value, from 123.75 to 66, the PR continued unabated about how "everything's great!" (just like it does to this moment). At the moment BMW stock is still down ~40% from it's high last summer and still stuck in a solid downtrend. After breaking the simple 20-day low off the all-time high, it's never looked back. Even with it's dividend against the position, it's proved to be a fantastic short sale for the past 14 months for those trading EU stocks (not me...unfortunately).

But of course this is all invalid too if we listen to the spewing PR on this forum. Nothing matters as BMW is "perfect" -- the rest of the world just doesn't understand. Just like the slow realization that they have the wrong product set for the market of today.... you want us to believe that's not true either. Everything is fine. According to this logic, the market for BMW stock is wrong too, the market for BMW cars simply has it wrong also, and every single 3-4 decade long time BMW enthusiast is of course absolutely wrong in their constructive criticism also as they have been instructed repeatedly. Stubborn folks they are apparently. Similarly, the market for BMW stock is one stubborn beast as it refuses to comply with this wonderful, glowing PR.

[supermann125]

50k msrp...

[overcoil]

And Ferrari stocks 52 week low and high shows heavier loss then BMW. Ferrari is making the most reliable cars in its history presently.

[3M TAPE]

"Let's Make BMW Great Again"

[Mdrei]

LOL. You are throwing stuff at the wall and see what sticks.

I am not going to discuss the diesel as it is another pandora box needing lots of beers.

You are right, M never stood for Marketing. But it does now in the eyes of many. I am one of the "so called" Enthusiast and I spent close to $500k on BMW in the past 10 years to prove that.

You talk about all these M "inovations", but what matters most to the M crowd is the experience; sometimes even at a premium. M, today, is the same as AMG and RS. It used to be different: own engines; top in its class; certain exclusivity.

Today? M is nothing more than a brand.
Special editions, ZPP are all money machines while alienating enthusiasts. Case in point, I buy an M year 2-3 production and year 4 the ZPP or some "special edition" comes out. How are you going to build brand loyalty with that approach? Ms used to not even get facelifts. Now BMW devalues their own product.

Face it, BMW cares almost zero about the enthusiasts. It's cheaper to get new customers than attend to some "hard to please" aficionados. Enthusiasts and forums like these used to sell to the hardcore. BMW "replaced' us with Geniuses, that know as much as some of us ever forgot.

A couple of years ago M invited all e46 M3 CSL owners to the track to understand why we do not jump on the almighty e92 M3 V8. All the "inovations" were explained but they walked away disappointed; the cars were bloated and with no soul.

From a driving experience, the M4 has to match Porsche. Have you driven a Cayman or 911 lately or the C63S AMG?
Look at the M5/M6, there is nothing setting them aside from the RS or AMG.
Heck SportAuto and Auto Motor & Sport put the RS and AMG on top; that is on the home turf.
It's about time you get of your high horse of being "the standard to beat"; that start faded away long time ago. Again, look at your sales.
So yeah, M brand is a brilliant cash cow.

You are right about the Chinese, that is the market the BMW is going after, you cater to them much more than the US. You should.
Meanwhile, I'll shop around.

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Cadillac.
Great that you mention Audi because you don't how deep they are heading for trouble especially now that TDI sales have all but collapsed.
TDI models are needed especially in the US to meet their legislation for CAFE. But the entire groups Schadenfreude has put them at a point where they need to provide a solution. And again Q3,Q5 and Q7 are driving their sales.
Just as GLA,GLC,GLE/Coupe,GLS and G-Wagon are driving Mercedes-Benzes increases.

M never stood for marketing that is term so-called "Enthusiasts" use when they don't understand why are they not doing the same products as company A or why is there no sports car as company B? But refuse to understand their chosen individuality that appeals to the traditional M customer.

Today's competitors are so busy stating its an M killer that they completely lose their originality. They are were so far concerned about matching everything that they bring no individuality or anything new but a perfect imitation.
Sorry but having driven each generation M5 and driven the M3,M4 GTS amongst other new M models my question is how are you disappointed? Because these cars are filled with M brilliance, they are not lacking in anything and I am sure actual owners would agree with me.

M is actually the most innovative Performance line in the segment, they can utilise Carbon Fibre sparingly and have investigated many new developments with the next coming very soon in the Performance PHEV.

In the Chinese market on the eve of the Beijing Autoshow we held the annual BMW M night in an auditorium not just full of media and BMW executives from Munich and China but also enthusiasts who had not one complaint about the brand or its direction.

[Pentium]

Originally Posted by David70

Everyone has their opinions and platform sharing is very common. Imagine buying a 7 series and getting the same engine that comes in a 2 series.

Obviously if they cross shopped the A3/2 series to some level they are competitors whether or not you think they are.

Exactly, anyway the new 7 Series (730Li/730i) has the B48 Engine 2.0T

A3 is good, and I prefer it way more than the CLA (Quattro variant off course) but for sure I will drive the 2 Series at the end of the day...

Don't know what's gonna happen after the new 2 Series goes FWD

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by ScottSinger

And Ferrari stocks 52 week low and high shows heavier loss then BMW. Ferrari is making the most reliable cars in its history presently.

Actually it doesn't if you look at it priced in its home market currency to eliminate the effects of EURUSD cross-rate. However, it's a completely worthless comparison since Ferrari just IPO'd recently and only 10% of its shares are actually in public float. One would expect vastly more volatility out its shares than long established, very large market cap automakers similar to BMW which, btw, has over 53% of its shares in public float.

In any event, Ferrari took supreme advantage of the insane 0.01% market by IPOing when they did. Very smart move. They got their money from the IPO, only sold 10% of the shares into public hands and moved on. I seriously doubt they are too concerned about their stock price.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Pentium

Exactly, anyway the new 7 Series (730Li/730i) has the B48 Engine 2.0T

I thought the 740 and 235 had the same twin turbo inline 6 and the 730 isn't offered here? Then my point was a car that costs almost twice as much but comes with the same engine.

[facembanijung]

The day BMW tarnish their iconic product, we know it will go down sooner or later.

Civic has better interior than 3-series. A lot of competitors handle better than 3-series. Go back to E46 recipe.

[E86Z]

Flame suit on, we have a Cadillac ATS 2.0t with perf pack. Metallic grey on red. The interior is fantastic. The handling reminds me of my (gone but not forgotten) e46. The engine.. Is garbage. And somewhat unreliable, two year lease and we had engine issues/dash light. IMO after all that, its still a better overall package than its competition.

[Tomahawk]

Originally Posted by David70

Everyone has their opinions and platform sharing is very common. Imagine buying a 7 series and getting the same engine that comes in a 2 series.

Obviously if they cross shopped the A3/2 series to some level they are competitors whether or not you think they are.

I am interested in seeing a picture of you at 6'3" sitting in the front seat of a 2 series and your wife sitting behind you. I didn't think this would be possible.

If she will cooperate i would be happy to provide such. luckily she is barely 5'2". I had a GTI for a while, and enjoyed it immensely. Nothing wrong with the Golf platform. And as far as the A3 interior, I actually prefer the jetta/golf interior. And i fit in the GTI easier. But with anyone behind me, it wasnt fun. if you bought a 2015 740, you did get the same engine as a 2er. BUT, a 7er isnt just a gussied up 2er. I realize it was a pedestrian comment regarding Jetta vs A3, but doesnt make it less true. And, yes, I understand the RS3 is more than a really fast jetta, but that isnt what we are discussing.

And the price difference is justified when it is the ONLY small, rear drive (non-domestic) under 40k. And, equipment to equipment, the 228i will make up that price difference in true cost of ownership over 4 years.