[Alpine Wait]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

No, it's not an argument you would use because you don't understand it takes 10x as many toxic metals to produce an EV as an ICE, but I do. I don't like killing people in 3rd world countries, but some people don't care.

And I don't get behind the wheel of an ICE every day and haven't for decades.

Regardless of where you found that 10X number, every respectable scientific analysis concludes BEVs have less total/ongoing pollutants produced after 3-5 years of use, compared to ICE.

This is not even a "EVs are better/worse than ICE" situation... you're simply ignoring facts if you think ICE overall is less harmful to people or the environment than BEVs.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Scrippy

What do this person make up in their statement? Are you under the impression battery packs last forever, are efficient or they don’t weigh hundreds of pounds? The only recycleable part is the battery casing and conductive components. You’ll maybe get 8-10% of the chemical makeup reused.

When is lasting forever a requirement for whether or not an automobile should be built?

Batteries are warrantied for no less than 8 yrs in the US. Some makes have a longer warranty. Battery performance is getting better with ever iteration. People bitching about batteries are no different than people who complained about fuel injection when carburators were common.

The amount which can be recycled will also continue to improve over time.

Instead we're getting PHEV's which will be driven around on ICE power most of the time because 2nd/3rd owners won't charge them and automakers get to meet emissions goals. Green whitewashing.

H2 fuel cell is nonsensical for a performance brand like BMW.

[David70]

Originally Posted by SportySpice

I know they’re only available in California. That’s why a Mirai isn’t an option for me.

I don’t know what the path forward is with hydrogen fuel cell cars. That’s why I want someone to keep working on it - so we can figure it out. If you know that EVs aren’t for everyone, what’s your solution for those people? I don’t want to give up my ICE car any more than the next person, but I suspect at some point I’ll have to. So if an EV doesn’t work me, then I’m just screwed in your world?

And just because you can’t buy one in the near term doesn’t mean the research and exploration have no value FFS. You’ve got all the answers on what’ll never happen - where’s the peer-reviewed research paper that you published? I’m sure Toyota and BMW would be very interested.

I never said that I know that EV's aren't for everyone and never will be, I said I am skeptical, far different. I'm 100% sure that EV's will work for a massively higher number today than hydrogen will and looking at 2014, they were far closer.

It's possible we will forever have some number of hybrids, EV charging will get fast enough we don't need to sit at one for long, or some other program.

I don't believe hydrogen for passengers cars is the answer, that's it. I can't prove my opinion that they will never work, but you haven't provided anything to change my opinion.

Facts are in the last decade almost nothing has changed with hydrogen for cars, there is a massive problem with making hydrogen affordable to fill up with & where to fill them up with. BMW/Toyota talk about a new car coming out 4 years from now, interesting both of them had their own car and decided a joint venture makes more sense, hardly sounding confident.

If you come up with anything to change my mind, go ahead and post it.

[SportySpice]

Originally Posted by David70

I never said that I know that EV's aren't for everyone and never will be, I said I am skeptical, far different. I'm 100% sure that EV's will work for a massively higher number today than hydrogen will and looking at 2014, they were far closer.

It's possible we will forever have some number of hybrids, EV charging will get fast enough we don't need to sit at one for long, or some other program.

I don't believe hydrogen for passengers cars is the answer, that's it. I can't prove my opinion that they will never work, but you haven't provided anything to change my opinion.

Facts are in the last decade almost nothing has changed with hydrogen for cars, there is a massive problem with making hydrogen affordable to fill up with & where to fill them up with. BMW/Toyota talk about a new car coming out 4 years from now, interesting both of them had their own car and decided a joint venture makes more sense, hardly sounding confident.

If you come up with anything to change my mind, go ahead and post it.

I’m not interested in or trying to changing your mind. You can be as skeptical as you’d like. A ton of people commenting here are also sceptical about the feasibility of mass adoption of BEVs. People are entitled to their opinions. As I said in my original reply to you, I think the stakes are too high to count out any possible solutions at this stage regardless of how sceptical you and other BEV proponents are (and it’s usually BEV proponents most loudly shouting down anything other than BEVs).

[Scrippy]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

When is lasting forever a requirement for whether or not an automobile should be built?

Batteries are warrantied for no less than 8 yrs in the US. Some makes have a longer warranty. Battery performance is getting better with ever iteration. People bitching about batteries are no different than people who complained about fuel injection when carburators were common.

The amount which can be recycled will also continue to improve over time.

Instead we're getting PHEV's which will be driven around on ICE power most of the time because 2nd/3rd owners won't charge them and automakers get to meet emissions goals. Green whitewashing.

H2 fuel cell is nonsensical for a performance brand like BMW.

I wasn’t questioning building electrical cars but I was asking what that other guy said that’s not true. Warranties or not when the battery is replaced there is a substantial amount of waste in that gigantic battery. That in itself is not very eco friendly. I do agree that so far the hydrogen engine may not be a performance setup but BMW can absolutely handle that and produce a performance version. Thus far electric cars are merely changing our waste type from petrol to battery chemical makeup. Not to mention the wash pools during the process of refining materials for battery creation. I think many do not see electric cars as an environmental improvement as a result.

[Tejas1836]

We need a "Still want a HV? (NO POLITICS)" thread

[zZnoevZz]

Whilst Toyota struggled with sales and marketing of hydrogen powered vehicles (HPV's), I like that manufacturers are still exploring alternatives to ICE's and EV's.

[David70]

Originally Posted by SportySpice

I’m not interested in or trying to changing your mind. You can be as skeptical as you’d like. A ton of people commenting here are also sceptical about the feasibility of mass adoption of BEVs. People are entitled to their opinions. As I said in my original reply to you, I think the stakes are too high to count out any possible solutions at this stage regardless of how sceptical you and other BEV proponents are (and it’s usually BEV proponents most loudly shouting down anything other than BEVs).

Anyone can come up with more options and believe whatever they want. Yet to see even one hydrogen proponent have any ideas on how this will move forward from where it was in 2014, to the point it is a real option for the average person.


Never ending it's a good option, it can happen, etc. yet no ideas on how.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I just see H2 fuel production, transportation, and storage as issues that cannot be developed to be cost competitive with ICEV.

I put production on the top of the list. Until someone figures out a way to produce it cheaply it seems dead in the water. No matter how great the vehicle that BMW/Toyota make we will still have the same main problem. An article on making cheap hydrogen (efficiently) would make it more believable. Also interesting how weak the BMW/Toyota effort seems to be, now doing a partnership with a vehicle coming out 4 years from now.

I like when people talk about hydrogen being "the most abundant element in the universe", like being an island surrounded by salt water.

[Ugly Kar]

This is cool technology. Does make smore sense than EV's.

https://www.topspeed.com/video/the-h...e-ev-industry/

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Scrippy

I wasn’t questioning building electrical cars but I was asking what that other guy said that’s not true. Warranties or not when the battery is replaced there is a substantial amount of waste in that gigantic battery. That in itself is not very eco friendly. I do agree that so far the hydrogen engine may not be a performance setup but BMW can absolutely handle that and produce a performance version. Thus far electric cars are merely changing our waste type from petrol to battery chemical makeup. Not to mention the wash pools during the process of refining materials for battery creation. I think many do not see electric cars as an environmental improvement as a result.

There was an old saying that the solution to pollution is dilution. With enough dilution the pollution will "disappear". This is an example of the lifecycle emissions of ICE. You don't see it so it doesn't exist at least not in the degree the "experts" say it does.

An EV has a battery which will eventually have to be recycled. A battery is physically large and because you can see it the amount of waste must be significant.

These positions are illogical.

[SportySpice]

Originally Posted by David70

Anyone can come up with more options and believe whatever they want. Yet to see even one hydrogen proponent have any ideas on how this will move forward from where it was in 2014, to the point it is a real option for the average person.


Never ending it's a good option, it can happen, etc. yet no ideas on how.

So if research is going to continue in a particular area, all the answers on every aspect of manufacturing and commercialization have to be known ahead of time? Lol.

I am a proponent of public transportation and remote work, not hydrogen vehicles. However, I want research into everything - from FCEVs to alternative fuels to improved battery tech - to continue and I’ve said that twice already. Just because it takes you 10 seconds to plug in your car doesn’t mean everyone can. I can walk 5 minutes to various trains and buses, but I am aware that everyone doesn’t have that option.

[David70]

Originally Posted by SportySpice

So if research is going to continue in a particular area, all the answers on every aspect of manufacturing and commercialization have to be known ahead of time? Lol.

I am a proponent of public transportation and remote work, not hydrogen vehicles. However, I want research into everything - from FCEVs to alternative fuels to improved battery tech - to continue and I’ve said that twice already. Just because it takes you 10 seconds to plug in your car doesn’t mean everyone can. I can walk 5 minutes to various trains and buses, but I am aware that everyone doesn’t have that option.

10 years after the debut of the the Mirai, what has changed? The "all the answers on every aspect of manufacturing and commercialization have to be known ahead of time"? . How about any progress on any of the critical questions. LOL

A decade to at least come up with a plan (not a workable solution, just a plan) from anyone on one of the critical issues and yet to hear anything.

[SportySpice]

Originally Posted by David70

10 years after the debut of the the Mirai, what has changed? The "all the answers on every aspect of manufacturing and commercialization have to be known ahead of time"? . How about any progress on any of the critical questions. LOL

A decade to at least come up with a plan (not a workable solution, just a plan) from anyone on one of the critical issues and yet to hear anything.

BEVs aren’t new tech - how long did it take for them to become commercially viable? Hint: longer than 10 years. And they still aren’t practical for a large percentage of urban residents.

[David70]

Originally Posted by SportySpice

BEVs aren’t new tech - how long did it take for them to become commercially viable? Hint: longer than 10 years. And they still aren’t practical for a large percentage of urban residents.

EV car sales worldwide -

100k sold in 2013 over 40 million in 2023. Hint - it's massive growth from almost nothing

Global sales of hydrogen vehicles fell by more than 30% last year, with China becoming world’s largest market
Only 14,451 fuel-cell vehicles were sold worldwide in 2023, compared to 20,704 in 2022

https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/tran...et/2-1-1599764

Any day now.

[SportySpice]

Originally Posted by David70

https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/tran...et/2-1-1599764

Any day now.

The first BEVs were built in the 1800s. It’s 2024 and they have just recently become a fairly significant portion of vehicles on the road.

[Scrapula]

Originally Posted by SportySpice

The first BEVs were built in the 1800s. It’s 2024 and they have just recently become a fairly significant portion of vehicles on the road.

Early BEVs didn’t last because computers weren’t invented. Battery management systems have come a long way. There are physical things you can do, like moving from pyramid to cylinder shape, but it’s the software that prevents the battery from being damaged. A Lucid Air Grand Touring can go further on a single charge than any ICE car I have owned. It just went across the US from New York to Los Angeles, over 2,800 miles.

It had one long stop at EV Go, for 1hr 18 minutes after crossing NY State. 52 minutes in Illinois, 18 minutes in Nebraska, 49 in Colorado, 21 in Utah.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by David70

EV car sales worldwide -

100k sold in 2013 over 40 million in 2023. Hint - it's massive growth from almost nothing

Attachment 3548635






https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/tran...et/2-1-1599764

Any day now.

Yeah when the Fascist Dictatorship of China says they have to buy BEVs to keep their global domination plans moving, their ants do so because they don't want to be disappeared or sent to slave labor factories.

Having CCP run China be the front runner for your growth isn't a good sign.

[David70]

Originally Posted by SportySpice

The first BEVs were built in the 1800s. It’s 2024 and they have just recently become a fairly significant portion of vehicles on the road.

Interesting, thanks.

[Scrippy]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

There was an old saying that the solution to pollution is dilution. With enough dilution the pollution will "disappear". This is an example of the lifecycle emissions of ICE. You don't see it so it doesn't exist at least not in the degree the "experts" say it does.

An EV has a battery which will eventually have to be recycled. A battery is physically large and because you can see it the amount of waste must be significant.

These positions are illogical.

Not for nothing but do you not feel that these batteries will be harmful on a similar level as exhaust? Because I believe that to be illogical. Do you own an electric car and would that maybe be upsetting to hear? The numbers will be coming back to haunt us shortly. Nobody diacusses this and it’s alarming. Merely form of toxicity that does not affect air quality but does harm land water and wildlife that we aren’t accounting for. All we have done is change the waste and form of pollutants. I’m not trying to upset you my friend.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Scrippy

Not for nothing but do you not feel that these batteries will be harmful on a similar level as exhaust? Because I believe that to be illogical. Do you own an electric car and would that maybe be upsetting to hear? The numbers will be coming back to haunt us shortly. Nobody diacusses this and it’s alarming. Merely form of toxicity that does not affect air quality but does harm land water and wildlife that we aren’t accounting for. All we have done is change the waste and form of pollutants. I’m not trying to upset you my friend.

Ask yourself exactly how.

Btw... You do know that from an energy perspective it would be better to burn NatGas in a hybrid rather than use NatGas to create hydrogen for use in a fuel cell.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Here’s an interesting take

Headline: “BMW, Toyota take a risky gamble on a failing product”

https://www.thestreet.com/automotive...amble-hydrogen

1/2 off and $15k worth of fuel, heck of a sales plan, can't wait for the new model. I guess I need to move to LA or San Francisco to get it, have to add that to the overall cost. If charging at home the EV is unlikely to cost $15k for electricity for the lifetime of the vehicle which shows how expensive hydrogen currently is.

Because high fueling costs have dampened the appeal of the Mirai, as of July 4, Toyota has been offering discounts of $33,000 off the top of the line Limited model, and $25,000 off the $50,190 sticker price of the base XLE model. Additionally, Toyota will throw in a hydrogen "gas card" worth $15,000.