[T Bone]

Originally Posted by imported_mega

I'll just disagree with you, it's by far my favorite M5 of all that have been produced

Actually, my favorite M5 was the E34 M5. 300 hp at a time when 300 hp was only in the exotics. Complete sleeper.

Originally Posted by graider

i'm gonna miss the screaming sound of the v8 or v10 though. To me, that is music to the ears. I don't think any turbo will sound anywhere as good as the NA engine.

There is nothing better sounding that a normally aspirated enigne at 8000 rpm +.... With turbos all we are going to get are farty and whoosy sounds.

[imported_mega]

Originally Posted by T Bone

There is nothing better sounding that a normally aspirated enigne at 8000 rpm +.... With turbos all we are going to get are farty and whoosy sounds.

I cant tell the diff between turbo and non turbo exhaust sound

if your confusing blow off valves, bmw uses recirculating bypasses, I can never hear it on my 135i

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by T Bone

With turbos all we are going to get are farty and whoosy sounds.

I've been proven wrong on this T. Hopefully, you will as well.

[gimmes name]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Fellow Enthusiasts,

We are now at the end of an era of a BMW ///M that we once loved. BMW and ///M, specifically has gone astray and are lost. Our once cherished sporty coupes, sedans and GTs with the characteristic powerful normally aspirated engines with killer performance high in the RPM band is lost.

Now we have 5300 pound trucks with asmatic redline performance is the new BMW and ///M. No 5300 pound truck is sporty and weight cannot be overcompensated by power but despite this known rule of performance, BMW has chosen to use the great ///M engineers on stupid trucks.

BMW and ///M have chose the path of Audi and AMG. Powerful and Heavy. Powerful good but Heavy necessarily means poor handling.

Look at the torque curve of the new engine. Flat torque curve great. But the stupid thing has a 6800 rpm redline and has an asmtha attack at 5700 rpm. Everything that we loved about BMW ///M engines is lost.

Don't believe the marketing hype. Weighs too much to handle well, fuel economy is horrible and the performance is mediocre. It satisfies no one.

I don't hold a lot of hope for the F10 M5 or the F12 M6. My current M6 is probably the last BMW that I will buy for awhile. If the 5 series PAV didn't reinforce that BMW has lost its way, the X5M and X6M demonstrates that BMW has completely lost its way in my opinion.

BMW has chosen to chase new markets and is going to forget its faithful.

bo hooooo go cry somewhere else. If you don't like the cars they make, step aside and stop crying on the forums. Take your money somewhere else and save us some time.

[imported_mega]

Originally Posted by gimmes name

bo hooooo go cry somewhere else. If you don't like the cars they make, step aside and stop crying on the forums. Take your money somewhere else and save us some time.

perhaps you shouldn't read these forums

I fully support all those that are crying, please keep doing it, maybe bmw will listen

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally Posted by gimmes name

bo hooooo go cry somewhere else. If you don't like the cars they make, step aside and stop crying on the forums. Take your money somewhere else and save us some time.

And you say that to someone who has more than 100x your post count? Classic!

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff

And you say that to someone who has more than 100x your post count? Classic!

Since when does post count mean anything….other then who has wasted more of their life in front of a computer.

[mapezzul]

wow... this is an amusing thread.

All I am going to add to this is the following:

BMW once dropped a motor in a 5 series and called it a Motorsports product... people said what is the point? Well they started a new trend

BMW built race bred cars for the street... what was the point? Others followed.

BMW built an SAV- they are going to ruin the brand- Changed an entire category.

BMW turbo charged the 3 series- they are going to ruin the brand- increased efficiency, power and increased sales. (People forget the ///M1 was turbo powered)

BMW has no "HALO" vehicle- they are going to ruin the brand- still are halo free and doing quite well.

I think you need to think outside the box on this a little, and realize that the R&D on these models was expended well before this crisis- and had several different paths. The first path was to developing a new X-Drive system (notice how X-drive is now in every name this is for marketing BMW outsells Audi in AWD vehicles but has no recognition for it) they achieved this goal with the intro of the X6 and the torque vectoring.

Second was to develop a new method of supplying turbos with exhaust gases, they also achieved this. From what I know the original engine block for this motor was developed along with ///M. The manifold and dual scroll chargers in this setup is something special and something only BMW has been able to accomplish- the setup is patented. (I will elaborate on this further when I have time)

When they combined both with an adaptive suspension they had created a beast of a vehicle that was in fact worthy of the ///M badge.
As Willich stated so eloquently: We developed the X5 4.8is and it was not an ///M; the newest X5 and X6 we developed are definitely ///Ms.

The Z4 ///M while a great product was really an after thought and did not take much time to develop; sales were less than stellar and showed what the market wanted, a softer less performance oriented car for weekend cruising... BMW is a company and it must make money so I do not blame them. They essentially gave the Z4Ms away. Thus, the reason there will not be a newer version. People speak with their wallets and they clearly shouted this is not what we want.... maybe if some more people that complain actually bought these models things would be different.

We are at a crossroads in time when we all must think outside the box, technology is changing and times are a changing- what is so wrong about a high torque lower revving motor? Last time I checked Audi was wiping up with those in Le Mans.

This does not mean all ///Ms will be turboed, there is a project in the works that uses alternative means for power.... and the KERS system is going to make its way into production models which more than likely will be an ///M exclusive.

I just think we need to wait this out and see what these beasts can really do.... and yes the X6 ///M ran a faster time on the 'Ring than an E46 ///M3... that is a fact and it was stated to me several times.

And while the heritage BMW products were great and maybe more raw... there is no chance they are outrunning me in my stock E90 ///M3 on any track. How many of you are using dial up?... not many! ///M products are for getting from point A to point B the fastest with the best handling available.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing but merely stating we have all been down this road before and in the end we are usually impressed- the only ///M car to disappoint would be:???


-M

[ssabripo]

so basically I read 5 pages of yapping with no real substance.....brilliant!

[footie]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

wow... this is an amusing thread.

All I am going to add to this is the following:

BMW once dropped a motor in a 5 series and called it a Motorsports product... people said what is the point? Well they started a new trend

BMW built race bred cars for the street... what was the point? Others followed.

BMW built an SAV- they are going to ruin the brand- Changed an entire category.

BMW turbo charged the 3 series- they are going to ruin the brand- increased efficiency, power and increased sales. (People forget the ///M1 was turbo powered)

BMW has no "HALO" vehicle- they are going to ruin the brand- still are halo free and doing quite well.

I think you need to think outside the box on this a little, and realize that the R&D on these models was expended well before this crisis- and had several different paths. The first path was to developing a new X-Drive system (notice how X-drive is now in every name this is for marketing BMW outsells Audi in AWD vehicles but has no recognition for it) they achieved this goal with the intro of the X6 and the torque vectoring.

Second was to develop a new method of supplying turbos with exhaust gases, they also achieved this. From what I know the original engine block for this motor was developed along with ///M. The manifold and dual scroll chargers in this setup is something special and something only BMW has been able to accomplish- the setup is patented. (I will elaborate on this further when I have time)

When they combined both with an adaptive suspension they had created a beast of a vehicle that was in fact worthy of the ///M badge.
As Willich stated so eloquently: We developed the X5 4.8is and it was not an ///M; the newest X5 and X6 we developed are definitely ///Ms.

The Z4 ///M while a great product was really an after thought and did not take much time to develop; sales were less than stellar and showed what the market wanted, a softer less performance oriented car for weekend cruising... BMW is a company and it must make money so I do not blame them. They essentially gave the Z4Ms away. Thus, the reason there will not be a newer version. People speak with their wallets and they clearly shouted this is not what we want.... maybe if some more people that complain actually bought these models things would be different.

We are at a crossroads in time when we all must think outside the box, technology is changing and times are a changing- what is so wrong about a high torque lower revving motor? Last time I checked Audi was wiping up with those in Le Mans.

This does not mean all ///Ms will be turboed, there is a project in the works that uses alternative means for power.... and the KERS system is going to make its way into production models which more than likely will be an ///M exclusive.

I just think we need to wait this out and see what these beasts can really do.... and yes the X6 ///M ran a faster time on the 'Ring than an E46 ///M3... that is a fact and it was stated to me several times.

And while the heritage BMW products were great and maybe more raw... there is no chance they are outrunning me in my stock E90 ///M3 on any track. How many of you are using dial up?... not many! ///M products are for getting from point A to point B the fastest with the best handling available.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing but merely stating we have all been down this road before and in the end we are usually impressed- the only ///M car to disappoint would be:???


-M

Very well said.

With the (possible) exclusions, in brackets because I don't know if CAR magazine got it wrong but they did actually say that the X6M was quicker on the ring than the new M3 (E9?) and not the E46.

Next is x-drive with it's torque vectoring diff, it a great concept and works surprisingly well, though it's not quite as advanced as the system developed for Quattro (well that my reading into it). By the way this comment is solely the technology and nothing to do with the cars they are fitted to.

And lastly the original M1 wasn't turboed but was a N/A inline 6 cylinder engine, I don't know what the chat with for the M1 concept, maybe your comments were addressed to it.

Other than that I would agree with everything you posted, BMW are the trend setters among the automotive world and continue to amazed with products that on first opinion seem so wrong but most prove to be so right for the times and these SUV M cars will probably be the same.

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by footie

Very well said.

With the (possible) exclusions, in brackets because I don't know if CAR magazine got it wrong but they did actually say that the X6M was quicker on the ring than the new M3 (E9?) and not the E46. And Nick Heidfeld at the release of the X5 ///M yesterday stated of the X5 ///M: And speaking of racetrack: I wasn’t at all surprised to hear that the BMW X5 M matched the performance of the previous BMW M3 on the famous Northern Loop at the Nürburgring in Germany. In other words, this Sports Activity Vehicle boasts the same dynamic driving performance as a sports coupe. Supremely sporty – what else can I say?

Next is x-drive with it's torque vectoring diff, it a great concept and works surprisingly well, though it's not quite as advanced as the system developed for Quattro (well that my reading into it). By the way this comment is solely the technology and nothing to do with the cars they are fitted to.

And lastly the original M1 wasn't turboed but was a N/A inline 6 cylinder engine, I don't know what the chat with for the M1 concept, maybe your comments were addressed to it.

Other than that I would agree with everything you posted, BMW are the trend setters among the automotive world and continue to amazed with products that on first opinion seem so wrong but most prove to be so right for the times and these SUV M cars will probably be the same.

Footie- thanks for the comments! I am not familiar with the CAR piece- what I heard was from the mouth of a BMWAG employee and it was stated E46.

As for xDrive not being as advanced as Quattro- not sure about that. Driven them both a lot and there are differences but, with torque vectoring BMW is definitely more advanced; Audi can't do that so it is really not a comparison. I will say that I still prefer an Audi in the snow... BMW in the dry on a track. (Just reviewed the Audi Q5- Best little SUV I have driven...makes the X3 look even more like garbage!)

The M1 was turbo charged for Group 5 and produced 850hp, that was the original intention for the car but due to issues with homologating (Lamborghini financial troubles) only a few were built and unreliable. While the street cars were simple 6 cylinders the race bred car was to be turbo charged. BMW was set on making the M1 a turbo car, it just did not pan out and it was eventually scrapped. The Procar (group 4) cars were I6s producing 470 hp.

The M1 was a huge financial loss for BMW with just about every car sold being under what it cost to build; it was an exercise in what not to do in a business.

BMW learned back them what GM learned with the Z06/ZR-1; you can't build a high end car and try to sell it cheaper than the competition or what it costs to build by leveraging the profits of your other products. No matter what you think it will do for the brand image it is still a loss for the business, hence BMWs lack of halo cars.

[footie]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

Footie- thanks for the comments! I am not familiar with the CAR piece- what I heard was from the mouth of a BMWAG employee and it was stated E46.

Well that's why I put my possible in brackets because it wouldn't be the first time they had got it wrong and as they were the only one at the time claiming this comment from the BMW test drivers you don't really know what is true and what isn't.

Originally Posted by mapezzul

As for xDrive not being as advanced as Quattro- not sure about that. Driven them both a lot and there are differences but, with torque vectoring BMW is definitely more advanced; Audi can't do that so it is really not a comparison. I will say that I still prefer an Audi in the snow... BMW in the dry on a track. (Just reviewed the Audi Q5- Best little SUV I have driven...makes the X3 look even more like garbage!).

Audi are now offering Quattro with a torque Vectoring diff (aka X6) on the S4 only at the moment but unlike the X6 system which I believe only works under load from the engine, the Audi system also work without any throttle input on entering a corner and slows the inside rear to improve cornering. I'm a bit surprised as to why they aren't rolling it out across the range, maybe it's solely a S and RS product for now and all future models baring either badge will be offered the option of TV or might it will be standard on the RS and a option on the S.

The only x-drive BMW I have driven are the X3, X5 and the X6 and to be honest none have impressed me, most of the problem comes from their steering feel and how they behave with their run flat rubber so to comment on the 3, 5 series that also offer AWD would be wrong of me. I do like Audi's quattro cars, they may be boring in comparison to a true rwd but they give a sense of confidence and safety when conditions are poor that no other awd car/system have given me. They also seem to find more traction than the others when they get going, as long as they are moving they never seem to stop.

The Q5 looks great, much better looking than the mighty Q7. I see it more a rival to the X5 than the X3 but maybe the next X3 will address this.

Originally Posted by mapezzul

The M1 was turbo charged for Group 5 and produced 850hp, that was the original intention for the car but due to issues with homologating (Lamborghini financial troubles) only a few were built and unreliable. While the street cars were simple 6 cylinders the race bred car was to be turbo charged. BMW was set on making the M1 a turbo car, it just did not pan out and it was eventually scrapped. The Procar (group 4) cars were I6s producing 470 hp.

The M1 was a huge financial loss for BMW with just about every car sold being under what it cost to build; it was an exercise in what not to do in a business.

Now I understand why you said what you did. Thanks for the explanation.

Originally Posted by mapezzul

BMW learned back them what GM learned with the Z06/ZR-1; you can't build a high end car and try to sell it cheaper than the competition or what it costs to build by leveraging the profits of your other products. No matter what you think it will do for the brand image it is still a loss for the business, hence BMWs lack of halo cars.

Maybe GM and BMW learned from they mistakes but VAG must have missed this all because according to Clarkson the Bugatti Veyron cost VW an eye watering 5 millon euros each after the development cost were taken into account.

[mapezzul]

"Audi are now offering Quattro with a torque Vectoring diff (aka X6) on the S4 only at the moment but unlike the X6 system which I believe only works under load from the engine, the Audi system also work without any throttle input on entering a corner and slows the inside rear to improve cornering. I'm a bit surprised as to why they aren't rolling it out across the range, maybe it's solely a S and RS product for now and all future models baring either badge will be offered the option of TV or might it will be standard on the RS and a option on the S."


I did not realize that they were given the green light on that... it is a similar system as the X6, does not require load.... much better that the Acura version.

BMW had the exclusive rights to the tech (co-developed with ZF), but it must have only been a year or Audi developed something similar.

BMW is also going to use this technology in RWD cars supposedly.

[footie]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

I did not realize that they were given the green light on that... it is a similar system as the X6, does not require load.... much better that the Acura version.

BMW had the exclusive rights to the tech (co-developed with ZF), but it must have only been a year or Audi developed something similar.

BMW is also going to use this technology in RWD cars supposedly.

No, Audi's system isn't supplied by ZF (by the way it was ZF and GKN that co-developed the TV diff in the X6) they chose someone else for their system, I think it was Ricardo (the company behind the DSG in the Veyron) though I am not sure if the one in the S4 is indeed this one or maybe this is a future offering. But I honestly though that the Audi setup was the only one to still work it's magic without load, if I am wrong then sorry BMW for doubting you.

It's great to get to talk to another car nut that seems to know his stuff.

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by footie

No, Audi's system isn't supplied by ZF (by the way it was ZF and GKN that co-developed the TV diff in the X6) they chose someone else for their system, I think it was Ricardo (the company behind the DSG in the Veyron) though I am not sure if the one in the S4 is indeed this one or maybe this is a future offering. But I honestly though that the Audi setup was the only one to still work it's magic without load, if I am wrong then sorry BMW for doubting you.

It's great to get to talk to another car nut that seems to know his stuff.

I forgot about the GKN stuff... they make the guts! From what I know BMW also has a hand in developing stuff with ZF and is part of the R&D budget...
I think most manufacturers will start using planetary gears with some form of electromechanicals it is more efficient and cost effective, that is what ZF and Ricardo use.

Here is the rest of the nonsense on the rear diff...

ZF Speak:
Vector Drive rear axle drive: intelligent torque distribution

As the drive torque is distributed to the left or right-hand wheel individually, the Vector Drive rear axle drive generates an additional yaw moment. This screwing motion lends support to the vehicle steering and stabilizes the car during sudden swerving without having to apply any of the wheel brakes. Vector Drive therefore results in better driving dynamics and enhanced safety. And, with its planetary construction, the rear axle drive even delivers when the engine has no traction, i.e. in cases where the driver is not accelerating, such as when descending winding mountain roads. It also prevents tire slip when moving off on all kinds of road surfaces, which reduces wear and tear and improves the vehicles traction.

BMW Speak:
Dynamic Performance Control switches power between the left and right rear wheels to stabilise the vehicle within milliseconds and help increase traction and lateral acceleration. Handling is lighter and more precise during normal as well as difficult driving conditions.

How Dynamic Performance Control works can best be described in canoeing terms: if you want to turn right when canoeing in the main current, you can brake using the paddle on the right side of the canoe. This is how most common electronic stability programs work. Alternatively, you could use the paddle powerfully on the left side of the canoe in order to have more control in progressing forwards and turning right. This is the principle behind Dynamic Performance Control.
It links the standard rear differential with a mechanical planetary gear set and an electronically controlled multi-plate clutch for each rear wheel. Its mechatronical system combines informatics, electronics and mechanics to process complex data such as the yaw rate, wheel speeds, steering angle and engine torque so that it can react immediately: when required, the system ensures that drive power distribution to the rear wheels can be freely varied and increased on either side as needed. The power distribution can also be displayed on the onboard computer.
Dynamic Performance Control increases directional stability when accelerating out of bends and provides the driver with extra support when dealing with difficult driving conditions. Before under- or oversteer can take place, lateral guided force is used to keep the vehicle on track. Precise steering significantly increases driving comfort and safety.
Dynamic Performance Control is also effective when the vehicle is coasting - when the driver removes their foot from the accelerator - or when they have pressed the clutch pedal. If the rear wheels are on different types of surfaces, Dynamic Performance Control improves traction by supplying more drive power to the wheel with more grip. A wheel torque difference of up to 1,800 Nm can be actively created between the left and right rear wheels. This increases driving stability and allows for much faster acceleration.
As a logical progression to the xDrive all-wheel drive system, Dynamic Performance Control can be matched to all drive concepts and engines. Whereas xDrive variably controls the power distribution between the front and rear axles, Dynamic Performance Control intelligently distributes power between the two rear wheels. This results in precise handling whatever the driving conditions.

[gimmes name]

Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff

And you say that to someone who has more than 100x your post count? Classic!

post count is irrelevant.

Bottom line: Thread has brought out a lot of informational stuff at least I didn't know. But to cry and whine about why BMW is doing what thy are....that's childish. If you don't like a car in the BMW lineup, take your money somewhere else. Companies will always transform. If you don't, you'll be left in the dust.

[GB///M]

Originally Posted by Philritter21

High strung, high revving engines might be nostalgic, but there is a reason they have been replaced. Its called progress. Something must be right about the new engines, because they are vastly more powerful, and quite often, more efficient.

Well said...high revving has been replaced because they are not great in the real world. High Revving is good for the track, but on the streets when cars hit their power band at lower revs its much more usable and easier to access.

[imported_mega]

saw a new x6m on it's way to NC today outside of atlanta

no badges, and the bmw emblem's were blacked out, but it was pretty clear what it was

I hate the x6, the x6m is a lot better looking than the x6

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by imported_mega

saw a new x6m on it's way to NC today outside of atlanta

no badges, and the bmw emblem's were blacked out, but it was pretty clear what it was

I hate the x6, the x6m is a lot better looking than the x6

Thanks for the pic..... I can see the earth deform underneath the weight of this truck.

I wonder when ///M will make tracked vehicle.

Here is a new ///M prototype..... 10,000 pounds with 600 hp!!!

[Zirenz2006]

Originally Posted by imported_mega

saw a new x6m on it's way to NC today outside of atlanta

no badges, and the bmw emblem's were blacked out, but it was pretty clear what it was

I hate the x6, the x6m is a lot better looking than the x6

Love it!

[3002 tii]

funny OP started this thread. i just recently caught up with one of my friends who's a designer at GM, works mainly on Caddie / Vettes but we brought up the topic of German automakers and he said the same exact thing. BMW's M is now the new AMG, it's lost its novelty and can be stamped on anything given its price tag....

[josephr25]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Thanks for the pic..... I can see the earth deform underneath the weight of this truck.

I wonder when ///M will make tracked vehicle.

Here is a new ///M prototype..... 10,000 pounds with 600 hp!!!

Why race people on the street when you can just run over their cars at the next stoplight.