[IndotagSwizz]

and the bigger problem here is not whether people comply or not, the real problem is that every time one of these injustices happen there's always absolutely no proof of that the officers were in real harm but always just enough for them to make the excuse "he had a gun"...ok no problem show us the body cams or the store video which they confiscated "mafia style" with no warrant, show us the proof and then everybody else moves on, but unfortunately this never happens and that's the real problem

[Verbiage]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

I agree.

But sadly, the situation is seldom like what we are led to believe.

I'm a little confused by the level of calmness the MN passenger has. I mean, if that were me, my first inclination would not be to start video recording anything.

To quote Peter's uncle Ben, with great power comes great responsibility. Just because you have a CCP and are carrying a gun doesn't mean you're not required to obey officer's commands. It doesn't make us equals to the cops, etc... Because i'm carrying, i know that any interaction i have with police is very different. There is always a chance of misreading my actions or intentions. So i bear that responsibly wisely by having a plan for police interactions. The only reason i told the cop at my parents house that i was carrying was because he was going to walk behind me as i cleared the rooms and checked for locked windows. I know that as i reached up for windows my firearm would be visible through my shirt and at the very lest my holster would be visible under my shirt tail as i reached up. If he said Ok, i'm outa here. I wouldn't have had reason to tell him. Maybe i'm different but i run through the what if's very often and very quickly on a daily basis depending on what situation i'm in.

I'm not saying this person was at fault, but for the most part, cops don't go around shooting people for fun. There is more to the explanation and hopefully it will come out either in audio or video from the police.

I, too, am waiting on more information from both situations, but the second instance is really what bothers me, for multiple reasons.

Also, your conduct was adequate and justified given the events which took place at your parent's house, and you gave no reason for the officer to believe otherwise. You also have experience with the owning of a firearm, and would be familiar with the stipulations surrounding it.

Apparently that is what was also present in the latter killing, except that it ended badly for the gentleman.

Originally Posted by SpacegrayMe90

As a Caucasian man perspective, what make this dude depicted in the photo any different from the African american fellow that was gunned down in Minnesota?

"One of the deepest of photos I've seen this year. Taken at a Confederate Rally in Stone Mountain. Here, we see the police give a white man with his hand on his gun unending patience".

So let me ask you this, is re training of officers really the answer? Racial divide and mistrust is alive and well.

This is what I was speaking on previously with regard to undertones and preconceived notions from individuals on the force, but that is something that is speculative in nature unless proven otherwise, such as Mr Tonka was saying. However, I agree that it cannot simply be glossed over.

[PJinCA]

Originally Posted by ASBSECU E93

My .02....

I grew up with and around LEO's. This is a thankless job where the officer is at risk every second on the job. I have a very healthy respect for each person who decides to walk this path as a career. That said...

The loss of any life is tragic. The senseless loss of life only compounds to the sorrow and anger triggered from this tragedy.

The videos are damming evidence for sure, especially the MN victim, but we do not yet know the events that led to what we see.

Any time you resist and do not FULLY comply - a LEO can and will use aggressive force to restrain a suspect until they are compliant. Right and wrong - Instances and exchanges like this open the door to tragedy.

I get it, being a LEO is a thankless, difficult and dangerous job. But it's what they fucken signed up for. Don't like your job or can't handle it? Change careers. Point blank, simple. However, if you're going to do your job, do it to the best of your ability. That means NOT using deadly force unless absolutely necessary. That means getting the measure of a situation before reaching for your gun.

There is no "right and wrong" when people continually get killed. Why? because you can't jsut say "oops, my bad" and bring them back.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Verbiage

Since this is apparently your last message, I'll respond to it.

I just started this discussion to gain some opinions on the situations that have taken place this week. We have folks who are experienced with law enforcement, folks who can legally carry firearms and who are knowledgeable of the laws, and we have African Americans here who are also entitled to their own opinions, which may differ from mine. That is fine.

But one thing I cannot and will not tolerate is a troll that operates seemingly aimlessly and senselessly, ignorantly spewing bullshit filler in a place where I am genuinely trying to gauge points of view on an ongoing issue that has plagued society for quite some time.

With that said, I'd be more than happy with your permanent exit from this thread.

Mods, I apologize for the rant and do not close this thread. But I had to get this off of my chest.


Thanks.

Stop lying.
You've already decided the (black) man was wronged. You are not gauging opinions, hence when others and I expounded the opposite view you immediately accuse us of bringing up race. Seriously? haha we are not all 20-something.. won't fall for that baiting shit

[PJinCA]

Originally Posted by SpacegrayMe90

As a Caucasian man perspective, what make this dude depicted in the photo any different from the African american fella that was gunned down in Minnesota?

"One of the deepest of photos I've seen this year. Taken at a Confederate Rally in Stone Mountain. Here, we see the police give a white man with his hand on his gun unending patience".

So let me ask you this, is re training of officers really the answer? Racial divide and mistrust is alive and well.

Good question, that guy is a "patriot" and any black man is a "thug" according to some. Same as the Bundy assholes who did have weapons trained on officers, and yet, not a single one got even a papercut (I mean on Bundy's ranch, not Oregon, the douche in Oregon got exactly what he deserved)

[ASBSECU E93]

Originally Posted by PJinCA

I get it, being a LEO is a thankless, difficult and dangerous job. But it's what they fucken signed up for. Don't like your job or can't handle it? Change careers. Point blank, simple. However, if you're going to do your job, do it to the best of your ability. That means NOT using deadly force unless absolutely necessary. That means getting the measure of a situation before reaching for your gun.

There is no "right and wrong" when people continually get killed. Why? because you can't jsut say "oops, my bad" and bring them back.

I'm not agreeing with what happened - simply offering my perspective.

I would say however - instances where LEO's shoot and kill to protect against the additional loss of innocent lives is part of their responsibilities. Unfortunately - high stress encounters with armed officers and/or armed civilians can lead to tragedy on both sides of the conversation.

[Verbiage]

Originally Posted by IndotagSwizz

and the bigger problem here is not whether people comply or not, the real problem is that every time one of these injustices happen there's always absolutely no proof of that the officers were in real harm but always just enough for them to make the excuse "he had a gun"...ok no problem show us the body cams or the store video which they confiscated "mafia style" with no warrant, show us the proof and then everybody else moves on, but unfortunately this never happens and that's the real problem

I think there is proof and there is reasonable grounds for the actions taken. However, the situations almost always escalate too quickly, and judgments are passed before thorough investigations have taken place.

Take the shooting of Mike Brown, for instance. Once the subsequent footage of him in the convenience store surfaced, he was labeled as a beast, as he clearly manhandled the shop owner, shoving around and acting threatening. It's all context.

Originally Posted by PJinCA

I get it, being a LEO is a thankless, difficult and dangerous job. But it's what they fucken signed up for. Don't like your job or can't handle it? Change careers. Point blank, simple. However, if you're going to do your job, do it to the best of your ability. That means NOT using deadly force unless absolutely necessary. That means getting the measure of a situation before reaching for your gun.

There is no "right and wrong" when people continually get killed. Why? because you can't jsut say "oops, my bad" and bring them back.

Bolded is key. This is important.

[insanecoder]

so in the land of the "free" its free for cops to shoot if the going gets alil tough
The cop was the judge, jury, and executioner
and we have no proof in a court of law of the mans guilt of anything which required the death penalty

These keystone killer copper guyz need to be prosecuted all the way

[kingcloudix]

Originally Posted by gonzo

Why don't you go try it for a week tough guy.

And why would I ever want to do that? To prove what to you? Booo hooo its really hard to be the face of the biggest and most brutal gang in America. Don't do the job if you are that scared...plain and simple.

You pull someone for a busted tail light that is not busted and murder him after he states he has a weapon and is only reaching for his ID?

You murder and cover up the murder of a woman who failed to signal?

You murder a man selling cigarettes causing no public harm or danger?

You murder a man because you received a call about a hostile man who btw is not hostile when you approach him? In a open carry state?

Stfu! I don't want to hear anything about complying in these situations. None of these situations warrants an officer to be afraid for his life to the point where a gun is pulled. Pussies as stated before.

[PJinCA]

Originally Posted by ASBSECU E93

I'm not agreeing with what happened - simply offering my perspective.

I would say however - instances where LEO's shoot and kill to protect against the additional loss of innocent lives is part of their responsibilities. Unfortunately - high stress encounters with armed officers and/or armed civilians can lead to tragedy on both sides of the conversation.

I understand that, the use of deadly force can be part of the job description of a LEO. However, yes, LEOs should be held to a higher standard than the average Joe when it comes to high stress situations - because that's their job, to deal effectively with those situations.

When I was in combat I still adhered to the ROE, I didn't just start shooting anyone and everyone because I was "stressed", because I knew I signed up for the possibility of being in stressful situations.

[ASBSECU E93]

Originally Posted by PJinCA

Good question, that guy is a "patriot" and any black man is a "thug" according to some. Same as the Bundy assholes who did have weapons trained on officers, and yet, not a single one got even a papercut (I mean on Bundy's ranch, not Oregon, the douche in Oregon got exactly what he deserved)

Since you asked....

Several differences - that is a photo is a moment in time. He might have removed his hand and continued a conversation, or the officer knew him personally and the gun owner was not threatening anyone. The gun was in plain sight and no reports of threatening behavior.

And yes, I own several guns and have hunted in the past. I also Bow hunt.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by PJinCA

I get it, being a LEO is a thankless, difficult and dangerous job. But it's what they fucken signed up for. Don't like your job or can't handle it? Change careers. Point blank, simple. However, if you're going to do your job, do it to the best of your ability. That means NOT using deadly force unless absolutely necessary. That means getting the measure of a situation before reaching for your gun.

There is no "right and wrong" when people continually get killed. Why? because you can't jsut say "oops, my bad" and bring them back.

Originally Posted by Verbiage

Bolded is key. This is important.

You're talking your book, man.
And the cop is just supposed to assume your innocent as the tooth fairy..

It's just like tinder. Why do most girls automatically assume all guys are douches? Because of people like you, Verb.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by SpacegrayMe90

As a Caucasian man perspective, what make this dude depicted in the photo any different from the African american fellow that was gunned down in Minnesota?

"One of the deepest of photos I've seen this year. Taken at a Confederate Rally in Stone Mountain. Here, we see the police give a white man with his hand on his gun unending patience".

So let me ask you this, is re training of officers really the answer? Racial divide and mistrust is alive and well.

First, police training is to never draw on a drawn gun. If the two officers in front of the idiot pictured were alone, drawing their gun only escalates and likely gets them both shot.

At that distance, they were better off having both hands available to wrestle the guy down before he could get an accurate shot off. But i'm assuming since you didn't post any aftermath of people getting shot, the person pictured likely complied with police orders or was subsequently arrested without incident.

It's also fairly obvious that since he's carrying a rifle over his shoulder he was there displaying his choice to exercise his 2A rights rather than having his guns on his person with intent to shoot people. This would also cause a different reaction from police.

Since we're playing devils advocate, why do you suppose the cops were there in the first place? Was it because there was a Confederate rally or because someone called the police a bout a single person breaking the law and threatening someone with a gun? Do you think there are any more people involved in that incident than the 7 pictured? Could it be there were 7 other men equally armed behind the camera? Could it be that since this was a Confederate rally, likely being held in some small backwards location that the cop could be related to the guy or know him in some capacity?

I agree with you that racial divide and mistrust is alive and well. I just don't think the police are the sole cause.

This thread is getting filled with emotion and going south quickly.

[ASBSECU E93]

Originally Posted by PJinCA

I understand that, the use of deadly force can be part of the job description of a LEO. However, yes, LEOs should be held to a higher standard than the average Joe when it comes to high stress situations - because that's their job, to deal effectively with those situations.

When I was in combat I still adhered to the ROE, I didn't just start shooting anyone and everyone because I was "stressed", because I knew I signed up for the possibility of being in stressful situations.

Not my intent or desire to debate the actions of others.

Loss of any life is simply tragic. I have several dear friends who have been killed in the line of duty and now have bridges named after them back home.

These men also left families and were good people. They were sons and brothers, and died protecting their communities.

[PJinCA]

Originally Posted by ASBSECU E93

Since you asked....

Several differences - that is a photo is a moment in time. He might have removed his hand and continued a conversation, or the officer knew him personally and the gun owner was not threatening anyone. The gun was in plain sight and no reports of threatening behavior.

And yes, I own several guns and have hunted in the past. I also Bow hunt.

I am a gun owner as well. And you raise another great point: "The officer knew him" - that is a BIG thing that's missing these days. When I was a kid I knew the cops in my neighborhood, all the kids did. This meant that when some inevitably got into trouble later in life, instead of viewing them as some anonymous thug they simply said something like: "C'mon Billy, is this really what you want to do?" Community policing, and officers taking the time to know their patrol area and the people in it is key. And it's severely lacking. And community policing works regardless of the racial makeup of the neighborhood

[PJinCA]

Originally Posted by ASBSECU E93

These men also left families and were good people. They were sons and brothers, and died protecting their communities.

This is sad, and true. However, I have been to several funerals for friends since 2003. None got bridges named after them, none appeared on the news. And they left families as well, I know, I held their children at their funerals. And yet, it is still not okay for a soldier to ignore ROE and shoot people for whatever reason they want.

[Verbiage]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

This thread is getting filled with emotion and going south quickly.

Sorry dad. Wasn't my intention.

Originally Posted by PJinCA

I am a gun owner as well. And you raise another great point: "The officer knew him" - that is a BIG thing that's missing these days. When I was a kid I knew the cops in my neighborhood, all the kids did. This meant that when some inevitably got into trouble later in life, instead of viewing them as some anonymous thug they simply said something like: "C'mon Billy, is this really what you want to do?" Community policing, and officers taking the time to know their patrol area and the people in it is key. And it's severely lacking. And community policing works regardless of the racial makeup of the neighborhood

Relationships are absolutely missing. In the stead of neighborhood camaraderie and building, it is literally the hunter versus the hunted, or the "enemy" being hidden behind the mask of law enforcement. I'm the same way. Being a car enthusiast and going to meets regularly, we became familiar with them on a first-name basis and they even let us slide (on more than one occasion, and not literally ) when things would happen.

It comes down to respect and care, fundamental treatment protocols that are all but gone, nowadays.

[ASBSECU E93]

Originally Posted by PJinCA

This is sad, and true. However, I have been to several funerals for friends since 2003. None got bridges named after them, none appeared on the news. And they left families as well, I know, I held their children at their funerals. And yet, it is still not okay for a soldier to ignore ROE and shoot people for whatever reason they want.

Not sure comparing a soldier during wartime or occupancy and LEO wrestling with a non-compliant suspect are in the same vein....but I digress.

Rather than debate any further, I'll simply state that somewhere this country lost respect and decency, compassion for our fellow man and the fortitude to help each other rather than kill each other.

Some may say this country never had the above because of our racially charged history, but you never know someone until you have walked in their shoes.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by grimlock

You're talking your book, man.
And the cop is just supposed to assume your innocent as the tooth fairy..

It's just like tinder. Why do most girls automatically assume all guys are douches? Because of people like you, Verb.

Yes. Presumption of innocence is foundational in our system.

[jtodd_fl]

Originally Posted by ASBSECU E93

Not sure comparing a soldier during wartime or occupancy and LEO wrestling with a non-compliant suspect are in the same vein....but I digress.

Rather than debate any further, I'll simply state that somewhere this country lost respect and decency, compassion for our fellow man and the fortitude to help each other rather than kill each other.

Some may say this country never had the above because of our racially charged history, but you never know someone until you have walked in their shoes.

And there is the root of it... Before you can start deciding whose life is more valuable than another, you first have to admit that it has a defined value that can be measured and traded against. And objectification of any person is a slippery damn slope - it spreads from one group to another and gets a little worse each time.

[SpacegrayMe90]

Originally Posted by ASBSECU E93

Since you asked....

Several differences - that is a photo is a moment in time. He might have removed his hand and continued a conversation, or the officer knew him personally and the gun owner was not threatening anyone. The gun was in plain sight and no reports of threatening behavior.

And yes, I own several guns and have hunted in the past. I also Bow hunt.

Good points you made, but these are all assumptions on maybe the officer knew him, or he relaxed his hands and continued a conversation. We really don't know what transpired other than it was a rally and things seemingly got heated from the body language of the individuals inset, and the officer is trying to peacefully diffuse the situation instead of pulling out his weapon.

If you were to insert an African american fella in the same situation, what would of been the outcome? Would the same unending patients be extended, or just he's going for his gun bang bang bang???

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by grimlock

And the world is a worse place for it?

Holy shit what a douchebag. You've called the girlfriend of the guy killed in MN a bitch multiple times, insinuated both people deserved what they got, called verbaige "holmes" and talked about "brothers", and now we are better off that these people died?? wtf? It really is true that the people with the least to say often talk the loudest.