[N & M]

December 2017

• The target power output for S58, the engine to be used in M3/M4/X3M/X4M, is 475hp.
• ...
• There are now five different M cars that will come to market in 2019. This is madness.

Thanks for posting. I say the more the merrier if it means they invest more into developing the sub brand.

One thing that continues to bother me is the fact that keep putting themselves just short of the ultimate figures. The new benchmark is 500hp so why just stop short of it?

[Blubaron79]

Originally Posted by N & M

Thanks for posting. I say the more the merrier, if means they invest more into developing the sub brand.

One thing that continues to bother me is the fact that keep putting themselves just short of the ultimate figures. The new benchmark is 500hp so why just stop short of it?

Bmw always under rates their motors maybe? It could also be a reason for people to buy the cook pack?

Look at the Infiniti Q whatever red sport. It makes 400hp, and my 335 with the power kit will take it. Now with the 340 with the power kit is still under 400hp and still handles better and is quicker. The M340 will hopefully keep up with Mercedes AMG off brand.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by N & M

Thanks for posting. I say the more the merrier, if means they invest more into developing the sub brand.

One thing that continues to bother me is the fact that keep putting themselves just short of the ultimate figures. The new benchmark is 500hp so why just stop short of it?

* PHYSICS * is usually a good reason.

just because manufacturer A or B can reach X hp reliably with their " power unit " , does not mean that manufacturers C, D, E etc can all do the same reliably.

Take a look at Formula One for example where the budget to compete and to strive for that top number is incredibly large.

Which reminds me of the second good reason.
BUDGET. If it's going to cost "Z" million dollars to develop a 500 hp motor, not every manufacturer will want to spend that same figure. What if they can achieve, say , 475 hp for HALF of "Z" and decide they would rather use the other half " Z" to make a better suspension, or in the case of making many automobiles, perhaps that money would be better off in a different project for the company.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by KevinM

Yeah, not sure where it will end. The market demands more HP with each rendition, as well as lower 0-60 times. Car manufacturers all play the game to keep up, with BMW being arguably slightly slower than MB or Audi to bow to market pressures (at least with their M cars). Any number of inexpensive modern cars can beat my E39 M5 and Z4M coupe to 60 mph these days, but my older Ms are so fun to drive because you can actually use a lot of their power in daily driving. Not so much with my F80, between how powerful it is and the need to not go sideways on the street! The F80 is a fun car, but to really understand it you almost have to be on a track.

Sure, I want a modern version of the E39 M5 for my next DD - it would be lighter due to aluminum and composite carbon, MT only (hah!), RWD, 400 hp, 370 lb ft, normally aspirated. A last hurrah, then, before electric cars take over the earth (and I have to admit, I DO worry about pollution). Unfortunately, I'd probably be the only buyer...

+1. However it'll be difficult to get that TQ/HP ratio with out using forced induction. Performance wise I suspect the current 340 is probably very close to the e39M5. Those E-series cars definitely had a different feel about them. I can only explain it as "solid-but-nimble".

[ando]

Originally Posted by KevinM

Yeah, not sure where it will end. The market demands more HP with each rendition, as well as lower 0-60 times. Car manufacturers all play the game to keep up, with BMW being arguably slightly slower than MB or Audi to bow to market pressures (at least with their M cars). Any number of inexpensive modern cars can beat my E39 M5 and Z4M coupe to 60 mph these days, but my older Ms are so fun to drive because you can actually use a lot of their power in daily driving. Not so much with my F80, between how powerful it is and the need to not go sideways on the street! The F80 is a fun car, but to really understand it you almost have to be on a track.

Sure, I want a modern version of the E39 M5 for my next DD - it would be lighter due to aluminum and composite carbon, MT only (hah!), RWD, 400 hp, 370 lb ft, normally aspirated. A last hurrah, then, before electric cars take over the earth (and I have to admit, I DO worry about pollution). Unfortunately, I'd probably be the only buyer...

I'd buy that BMW

[dmboone25]

Whatever the power output, I hope they put more time and effort into getting the power to the ground. It’s something you notice on a daily basis with the F80 - which makes it hard to really enjoy what the car has to offer from a performance standpoint.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

+1. However it'll be difficult to get that TQ/HP ratio with out using forced induction. Performance wise I suspect the current 340 is probably very close to the e39M5. Those E-series cars definitely had a different feel about them. I can only explain it as "solid-but-nimble".

I would expect that we are approaching the upper limits of how far companies like BMW can go on the “more power” = more performance front. Because there’s just not too much left in terms of the reduction of 0-60 times or other common metrics. Many cars are sub 5 seconds, and also affordable.

Because of their carbon fiber manufacturing capabilities, I would think that BMW would focus on weight (and size) reduction in order to push the performance needle. But they’ve not really put all of that together just yet. Maybe with the G series M cars we will see more of that.

[Dinh335]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Whatever the power output, I hope they put more time and effort into getting the power to the ground. It’s something you notice on a daily basis with the F80 - which makes it hard to really enjoy what the car has to offer from a performance standpoint.

With all due respect I think the whole "can't put power to ground on daily basis on f80" is way over exaggerated. I suppose if you are just mashing throttle. But using proper string theory goes a long way into making the f80 very engaging fast and fun.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Dinh335

With all due respect I think the whole "can't put power to ground on daily basis on f80" is way over exaggerated. I suppose if you are just mashing throttle. But using proper string theory goes a long way into making the f80 very engaging fast and fun.

I just see a lot of traction control intervention, even in moderate throttle applications. And if I’m getting onto a highway, I would think I could push the accelerator most of the way down and have the car get going quickly.

I’m not mashing the throttle - but the car wiggles and hesitates, with the traction control light blinking, between 1-2 and 2-3 gears, at least it does for me.

[Alumac]

Originally Posted by KevinM

Yeah, not sure where it will end. The market demands more HP with each rendition, as well as lower 0-60 times. Car manufacturers all play the game to keep up, with BMW being arguably slightly slower than MB or Audi to bow to market pressures (at least with their M cars). Any number of inexpensive modern cars can beat my E39 M5 and Z4M coupe to 60 mph these days, but my older Ms are so fun to drive because you can actually use a lot of their power in daily driving. Not so much with my F80, between how powerful it is and the need to not go sideways on the street! The F80 is a fun car, but to really understand it you almost have to be on a track.

Sure, I want a modern version of the E39 M5 for my next DD - it would be lighter due to aluminum and composite carbon, MT only (hah!), RWD, 400 hp, 370 lb ft, normally aspirated. A last hurrah, then, before electric cars take over the earth (and I have to admit, I DO worry about pollution). Unfortunately, I'd probably be the only buyer...

I’d love a BMW ‘Classic’ edition. Take the e39, e46 M plans off the shelf, dress them up with modern materials, sell them for a year or two.

[//M]

Originally Posted by Alumac

I’d love a BMW ‘Classic’ edition. Take the e39, e46 M plans off the shelf, dress them up with modern materials, sell them for a year or two.

We would all love this unfortunately it just isnt possible due to emmissions standards today. They could never make decent power N/A without go over particulate and CO2 thresholds. The S54 is dirty burning motor, have you ever smelled a catless S54... It's close to eye watering even with a leaned out tune.

They can give us a no prisoners S55 M2 CSL as a swan song though, let's pray they do.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

I would expect that we are approaching the upper limits of how far companies like BMW can go on the “more power” = more performance front. Because there’s just not too much left in terms of the reduction of 0-60 times or other common metrics. Many cars are sub 5 seconds, and also affordable.

Because of their carbon fiber manufacturing capabilities, I would think that BMW would focus on weight (and size) reduction in order to push the performance needle. But theyÂ’ve not really put all of that together just yet. Maybe with the G series M cars we will see more of that.

Lighter construction, definitely a good way to spend money from "Z " in my example above.

If the vehicle weighs less then with" just " 475hp it may actually be superior than a heavier vehicle with 500.

Folks that only want to see 500... sometimes miss the forest for the hp.... er... trees .

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

I just see a lot of traction control intervention, even in moderate throttle applications. And if I’m getting onto a highway, I would think I could push the accelerator most of the way down and have the car get going quickly.

I’m not mashing the throttle - but the car wiggles and hesitates, with the traction control light blinking, between 1-2 and 2-3 gears, at least it does for me.

It needs more tire and a better suspension.

Both of which were improved on the ZCP, but more work could make it better.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

It needs more tire and a better suspension.

Both of which were improved on the ZCP, but more work could make it better.

It's funny how manufacturers will keep on upping the hp but the tire size hardly changes. At least make the wheel wells big enough to fit some 315 slicks on the damn car then lol

[jmg]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

I just see a lot of traction control intervention, even in moderate throttle applications. And if I’m getting onto a highway, I would think I could push the accelerator most of the way down and have the car get going quickly.

I’m not mashing the throttle - but the car wiggles and hesitates, with the traction control light blinking, between 1-2 and 2-3 gears, at least it does for me.

Dsc is overly sensitive I have found, kicking in too early and too aggressively leaving you a feeling that you are not in control. Using M dynamic on the track iv noticed less of that feeling. 0-100mph runs absolutely MASHING the peddle from a dead stop in M dynamic launches the car with a little wheel spin but it quickly gains composure and bites down. Very little tail way if at all.

[KevinM]

Originally Posted by nick3753

There's always the Chevy SS.....or at least there was.

Yes. After driving BMWs for almost 20 years, it's hard to go to a Chevy. I guess I'm a German car snob , but the overall exterior and interior style is not my preference. But I may just need to get over myself because for $50K I can buy a reasonable E39 M5 replica in the SS...

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

+1. However it'll be difficult to get that TQ/HP ratio with out using forced induction. Performance wise I suspect the current 340 is probably very close to the e39M5. Those E-series cars definitely had a different feel about them. I can only explain it as "solid-but-nimble".

Well, emissions aside, I wouldn't mind if BMW just used the NA S62 from the E39 M5. that is a great engine. If made in small numbers it wouldn't impact BMW's overall emission numbers.

Originally Posted by Alumac

I’d love a BMW ‘Classic’ edition. Take the e39, e46 M plans off the shelf, dress them up with modern materials, sell them for a year or two.

Yes! As long as they are not $150K. With low mileage E39 Ms being sold for > $100K by EAG, there has to be a market for this.

[bim2er]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

November 2017

• M2 CSL is a real thing.
• ...

It only took a month from going from the M2 CSL is a real thing to the frank discussion that said maybe not so fast.

Hopefully this will be just a short nap and not the typical hibernation.

[Dethsupp0rt]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

If the vehicle weighs less then with" just " 475hp it may actually be superior than a heavier vehicle with 500.

Folks that only want to see 500... sometimes miss the forest for the hp.... er... trees .

Yep, and really "475" from BMW will really be 450 or so to the wheels, which is well over 500 crank anyway.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

It needs more tire and a better suspension.

Both of which were improved on the ZCP, but more work could make it better.

Agreed. My ZCP does it less than the civics I’ve driven, but still too much for daily use.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by jmg

Dsc is overly sensitive I have found, kicking in too early and too aggressively leaving you a feeling that you are not in control. Using M dynamic on the track iv noticed less of that feeling. 0-100mph runs absolutely MASHING the peddle from a dead stop in M dynamic launches the car with a little wheel spin but it quickly gains composure and bites down. Very little tail way if at all.

That’s the thing - I Drive in MDM mode 100% of the time. I can’t imagine how frustrating it is if you’ve got a non ZCP.

[JoM3z]

I think this is a miss opportunity for BMW if they don't hit the 500hp mark with the new M3-M4. Considering the current CS and GTS model is already hovering that 500hp. At this power level on a rear wheel drive car is still manageable anything beyond this will require AWD.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by JoM3z

I think this is a miss opportunity for BMW if they don't hit the 500hp mark with the new M3-M4. Considering the current CS and GTS model is already hovering that 500hp. At this power level on a rear wheel drive car is still manageable anything beyond this will require AWD.

AMG GTR ,viper , Z06 , Zr-1 . All cars a rwd chassis , all have wayyyy more than 500 hp and are the fastest cars on track with the best dynamics bc RWD! Stock Z06 record at the drag strip is 10.3@134 mph with stock tires and that's with 650/650! 500 absolutely does not equate to needing awd.