[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Every post about ev states in timeframe x, say 5-10 yrs for example, the tech WILL be this or do that. BS. There is NO certainty it will. WILLimplies definite certainty. When it comes to scientific advances, you can't state absolutes. You can say may, should, is expected to, etc. But WILL, etc, complete bs.

Every discussion has a context. The arguments in this particular thread are predicated on the assumption that what Van Meel says - that M will eventually build electric cars - are true. But he doesn't really know that for sure. He is not a omniscient. He's making statements based on the progression of the technology to date and the ways his employer has been able to apply it in working products today.

However, if the technology ends up being impractical for use as the basis of products that are meant to succeed those that we buy today from the M division, then they will go another direction. What they will not do is build products that no one will buy. So, if and when an M electric car arrives, it will be an effective replacement for today's M vehicle.

P.S. Do me a favor and watch the swearing, ok? Passion ignites emotion, and that's great, but I ask that you keep it under control. I would hate to have to delete entire posts because of one or two poorly judged sentences. Thank you.

[Fundguy1]

I used the f bomb to show the sillyness of poppycock. I almost never use it but i have seen it used repeatedly even in post titles. Not my style typically. Computers follow Van Meel pretty well. But using that assumption for other tech is dubious at best. Look at fuel cells as an example or fusion reactors. The crossover to apply it outside computer tech isn't there.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

I used the f bomb to show the sillyness of poppycock. I almost never use it but i have seen it used repeatedly even in post titles. Not my style typically.

I would ask that if you see threads with titles that violate forum rules, please report them using the "!" found in the lower left corner of every post.

Computers follow Van Meel pretty well. But using that assumption for other tech is dubious at best. Look at fuel cells as an example or fusion reactors. The crossover to apply it outside computer tech isn't there.

You're right, its not a slam dunk, there is no free lunch, and nothing is guaranteed at this point. And I certainly agree that pollutants and contaminants resulting from the acquisition of materials necessary to create batteries as well as those caused by the creation of the batteries themselves are as real as the pollution and emissions resulting from the acquisition and refining of oil as well as those that come from the tailpipes of today's ICE powered vehicles. Regardless of the path we take to get there, I think that everyone can agree that pollution isn't ideal for the planet and reducing it is a good thing. I think most of us would also acknowledge that the move away from oil-powered automobiles need not and will not stop at today's prevailing implementations. We should all be hopeful that someday we can fill up with a tank of water and be on our way. Or perhaps some other solution even better than that.

[Mikecom32]

Originally Posted by Agni

How so? It only takes minutes for a full charge with Tesla's supercharger.

Minutes? I guess you can measure it in minutes, but it's 75 of them.

An hour and 15 minutes to fuel up your car is more than an annoyance.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by Mikecom32

Minutes? I guess you can measure it in minutes, but it's 75 of them.

An hour and 15 minutes to fuel up your car is more than an annoyance.

As a consumer its a royal pain in the arse

5 mins to fuel up CI/ICE engine vs 15 TIMES that period of time for an EV?

As a consumer I dont want a car that goes "wooooosh"......I think most people are in boat as evidenced by aftermarket exhaust sales.

As a consumer. CI/ICE engines are a mature, cost effective technology that sound and operate amazingly well......I'm not particularly interested in buying a car that doesnt do what existing solutions do from a performance, experience and cost perspective.

I'm sure someone will be along immanently to tell me that the technology will get there......

Ok.....when its there feel free to let me know......until then I'll enjoy my existing car

If someone wants an EV thats their choice......just dont try to force your choice onto other people.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by jpnh

As a consumer its a royal pain in the arse

5 mins to fuel up CI/ICE engine vs 15 TIMES that period of time for an EV?

As a consumer I dont want a car that goes "wooooosh"......I think most people are in boat as evidenced by aftermarket exhaust sales.

As a consumer. CI/ICE engines are a mature, cost effective technology that sound and operate amazingly well......I'm not particularly interested in buying a car that doesnt do what existing solutions do from a performance, experience and cost perspective.

I'm sure someone will be along immanently to tell me that the technology will get there......

Ok.....when its there feel free to let me know......until then I'll enjoy my existing car

If someone wants an EV thats their choice......just dont try to force your choice onto other people.

I only spend 30-40 min max when on the road trip
No Tesla owners would be wasting time to top it off to 100%
And as a real consumer, i now spend a lot less time charging, than i used to with my ICE cars. I plug in in my garage. Everytime you go to gas station you have to spend time, including driving there. It adds up when you do this every week or more often.
In those road trip cases where my charging is slower than your fillup, i dont mind. By the time i need to charge, my kids need break. So stoping on supercharger for 30min is just perfect time to get everyone to use bathroom and sometimes snack. And i dont pay for it

But, this is now. As soon as superchargers become more powerful it'll cut time to 10min or so. It could be as soon as this or next year
Argument of charging vs gassing up will become mute point

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

I only spend 30-40 min max when on the road trip
No Tesla owners would be wasting time to top it off to 100%
And as a real consumer, i now spend a lot less time charging, than i used to with my ICE cars. I plug in in my garage. Everytime you go to gas station you have to spend time, including driving there. It adds up when you do this every week or more often.
In those road trip cases where my charging is slower than your fillup, i dont mind. By the time i need to charge, my kids need break. So stoping on supercharger for 30min is just perfect time to get everyone to use bathroom and sometimes snack. And i dont pay for it

But, this is now. As soon as superchargers become more powerful it'll cut time to 10min or so. It could be as soon as this or next year
Argument of charging vs gassing up will become mute point

Your choice is YOUR choice

I'm not interested in spending 8 times as long to fuel a vehicle

I'm also not interested in spending additional money on an EV

I want to DRIVE and get where I'm going as fast as I can and have as much FUN as possible doing so.

Its a viceral thing......and a car that goes "whooosh" doesnt do it for me.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by jpnh

Your choice is YOUR choice

I'm not interested in spending 8 times as long to fuel a vehicle

I'm also not interested in spending additional money on an EV

I want to DRIVE and get where I'm going as fast as I can and have as much FUN as possible doing so.

Its a viceral thing......and a car that goes "whooosh" doesnt do it for me.

You are
Do a simple math of how much of your life you spend on gas stations

As for the whooosh, I love it
And i'm the person who drove S6 V8TT and X6M as my last 2 cars
But that whoosh is so addictive and lets you have fun without attracting unnecessary attention. It is also enjoyable to watch puzzled faces of high performance car drivers in rear-view mirror

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

You are
Do a simple math of how much of your life you spend on gas stations

As for the whooosh, I love it
And i'm the person who drove S6 V8TT and X6M as my last 2 cars
But that whoosh is so addictive and lets you have fun without attracting unnecessary attention. It is also enjoyable to watch puzzled faces of high performance car drivers in rear-view mirror

Its your choice

Not mine

As far as I'm concerned its a waste of time and money and doesnt satisfy my viceral requirements for a sports car

Its also why I expect we wont see BMW adopt it even in part until its a mature solution that also satisfies the viceral needs/desires of its M customers

Thats MY choice....

Not sure why you seem to have this burning need to get others to justify your choices

[Fundguy1]

Many of us like to venture out further than 100 miles from our garage. I do 3 times that daily for work. Not a viable option.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Many of us like to venture out further than 100 miles from our garage. I do 3 times that daily for work. Not a viable option.

Yes, we are as well
And that's one of the reasons I'm getting travel trailer. Why don't you throw a dart on the US map to see where I cannot go. Keep saying the same thing over and over yet you have no knowledge of the charging stations whatsoever

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by jpnh

Its your choice

Not mine

As far as I'm concerned its a waste of time and money and doesnt satisfy my viceral requirements for a sports car

Its also why I expect we wont see BMW adopt it even in part until its a mature solution that also satisfies the viceral needs/desires of its M customers

Thats MY choice....

Not sure why you seem to have this burning need to get others to justify your choices

No, I just don't like when people mis present the information about EV.
You don't like them that's fine, just don't miss inform other people

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

No, I just don't like when people mis president the information about EV.
You don't like them that's fine, just don't miss inform other people

No one is misrepresenting EV

They are more expensive.....by a LOT
EV lack range and ability to drive enthusiastically as sports car for a period of time that rivals CI/ICE rivals
They take many times longer to "fuel" than their counter parts
Avail of "charging stations" doesnt come close to couterparts
You need to drive it upwards of 100k AT LEAST to break even on efficiency or "emissions" foot print
They dont have the same "viceral" experience as their counterparts

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Many of us like to venture out further than 100 miles from our garage. I do 3 times that daily for work. Not a viable option.

Tesla Model S BASE: 250mile range.
Tesla Model S P100D: 365mile range.
Tesla Model X Base: 240mile range.
Tesla Model X P100D: 350mile range.
Chevy Bolt: 265mile range.

Upcoming Tesla Model 3 BASE: 240-260mile range.

Plenty to cover a 200 mile round trip.

Look, I get it. Some (most) of you are anti EV. But just because you're against something doesn't mean you have to spew uninformed, uneducated BS. Don't like EV? Don't get one. But don't tell those of us who has it that it won't work because "your commute" is over 100 miles. There are multiple models out now that will cover as many miles as their gasoline alternatives, and more on the way.

And in all reality, a very HIGH percentage of EV owners are upper middle class (EV is the new "luxury class" today). Vast as in, I believe, at one point California's Clean Energy commission, the organization that doles out the $2,500 rebate checks, released a study that shows something like over 80% of EV buyers who claim the credit has household income well in excess of $100,000. While that's not a measure for success, in my practical experience, those of us who DO drive EVs are typically a lot more successful than your average 'Murican. Like SIGNIFICANTLY more so. As in we typically live in households where there's more than 1 car for every car driving adult.

So for all the cases of "hey, what happens when *I* have to go to my remote cabin where there's no electricity?" Well, shoot. I'd take my 335D. Or "the pure EV won't last 5 laps on Cal Speedway." Heck why take the EV when I have one of the greatest handling BMW ever made in the MZ4 Coupe to the track?

Again. IN REALITY. ALL of the people I know on my block, all my friends who drive pure plug in EVs, all of us have at least 2 more cars in the garage for OTHER purposes. So for anyone decrying the drawbacks of EVs, you are all looking at it from the wrong perspective. A pure plug-in EV is an incredible complimentary car to what is already in the garage. It's a perfect daily commuter, it saves me anywhere between $120-250 per month on having to pay for gas, it saves me anywhere from 15-30 minutes a day on my commute (California white HOV stickers), where time literally IS money. And if I need to drive to Nor Cal for work or for leisure? There's the 335D, where I can ALMOST drive all the way to San Jose AND back on a single tank of diesel. And if I need to burn some rubber and carve some curves? There are maybe a few dozen car(s) on the planet that can beat the joy that comes from taking a apex at speed in the MZ4 Coupe.

But frankly I wouldn't want to use the MZ4 Coupe on my daily 2-2.5 hour long drive through So Cal traffic, nor do I want to take the 335D unless I can use the carpool lane (and I don't because frankly, I can't stand having passengers in my commute).

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by jpnh

No one is misrepresenting EV

They are more expensive.....by a LOT
EV lack range and ability to drive enthusiastically as sports car for a period of time that rivals CI/ICE rivals
They take many times longer to "fuel" than their counter parts
Avail of "charging stations" doesnt come close to couterparts
You need to drive it upwards of 100k AT LEAST to break even on efficiency or "emissions" foot print
They dont have the same "viceral" experience as their counterparts

Most EVs at the moment will not allow track time, they're not designed for that purpose. However there are cars coming out to the market that will either be equal or better than combustion engine counterpart

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Most EVs at the moment will not allow track time, they're not designed for that purpose. However there are cars coming out to the market that will either be equal or better than combustion engine counterpart

The point is that its NOT a sports car nor can it even begin to approach what your average M car can currently do

An M2 has a cruising range of 350 miles

Only one EV even comes close and its almost 3x the cost of the M2.....and when driven in a spirited manner it cant even come close to the useable range of the M2 or any other traditional sports car

Dont get me wrong, EV's are a novelty that have a niche so long as enough people are willing to shell out a PILE of money........but as far as a replacement for an M its vapor ware.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by The HACK

Tesla Model S BASE: 250mile range.
Tesla Model S P100D: 365mile range.
Tesla Model X Base: 240mile range.
Tesla Model X P100D: 350mile range.
Chevy Bolt: 265mile range.

Upcoming Tesla Model 3 BASE: 240-260mile range.

Plenty to cover a 200 mile round trip.

Look, I get it. Some (most) of you are anti EV. But just because you're against something doesn't mean you have to spew uninformed, uneducated BS. Don't like EV? Don't get one. But don't tell those of us who has it that it won't work because "your commute" is over 100 miles. There are multiple models out now that will cover as many miles as their gasoline alternatives, and more on the way.

And in all reality, a very HIGH percentage of EV owners are upper middle class (EV is the new "luxury class" today). Vast as in, I believe, at one point California's Clean Energy commission, the organization that doles out the $2,500 rebate checks, released a study that shows something like over 80% of EV buyers who claim the credit has household income well in excess of $100,000. While that's not a measure for success, in my practical experience, those of us who DO drive EVs are typically a lot more successful than your average 'Murican. Like SIGNIFICANTLY more so. As in we typically live in households where there's more than 1 car for every car driving adult.

So for all the cases of "hey, what happens when *I* have to go to my remote cabin where there's no electricity?" Well, shoot. I'd take my 335D. Or "the pure EV won't last 5 laps on Cal Speedway." Heck why take the EV when I have one of the greatest handling BMW ever made in the MZ4 Coupe to the track?

Again. IN REALITY. ALL of the people I know on my block, all my friends who drive pure plug in EVs, all of us have at least 2 more cars in the garage for OTHER purposes. So for anyone decrying the drawbacks of EVs, you are all looking at it from the wrong perspective. A pure plug-in EV is an incredible complimentary car to what is already in the garage. It's a perfect daily commuter, it saves me anywhere between $120-250 per month on having to pay for gas, it saves me anywhere from 15-30 minutes a day on my commute (California white HOV stickers), where time literally IS money. And if I need to drive to Nor Cal for work or for leisure? There's the 335D, where I can ALMOST drive all the way to San Jose AND back on a single tank of diesel. And if I need to burn some rubber and carve some curves? There are maybe a few dozen car(s) on the planet that can beat the joy that comes from taking a apex at speed in the MZ4 Coupe.

But frankly I wouldn't want to use the MZ4 Coupe on my daily 2-2.5 hour long drive through So Cal traffic, nor do I want to take the 335D unless I can use the carpool lane (and I don't because frankly, I can't stand having passengers in my commute).

100 miles from, not round trip. I do up to 600 miles a day.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by jpnh

No one is misrepresenting EV

They are more expensive.....by a LOT
EV lack range and ability to drive enthusiastically as sports car for a period of time that rivals CI/ICE rivals
They take many times longer to "fuel" than their counter parts
Avail of "charging stations" doesnt come close to couterparts
You need to drive it upwards of 100k AT LEAST to break even on efficiency or "emissions" foot print
They dont have the same "viceral" experience as their counterparts

I don't have one of the fancy "Tesla" EVs. I have a lowly Fiat 500e. You want visceral driving experience? The 500e handles curves and turns as well as ANYTHING BMW offers now, maybe short of the M models. And because it delivers ALL its torque down low, accelerating in and out of traffic is instantaneous. Nothing ICE can come remotely close to how quickly I can fill a gap since 1) it's always in the right gear, no downshifting needed (there's only 1 forward gear) and 2) center of gravity is so low that quick changes in steering direction happens like you're driving a go-kart. And despite only making a measly "140HP", because the 500e weighs in at a scant 2,600lbs, it is far more nimble and toss-able than anything BMW make, since just about anything under the BMW umbrella is at least 500 lbs heavier.

And all the other "inconveniences" you cite assumes that none of us "EV" owners have another car at home, or haven't figured out how to maximize our enjoyment of the vehicle around the limitations it presents. Need charging stations? There are charging stations everywhere in large metropolitan areas now, with more being added every day. Anecdotal rebuttal: Few weekends ago I took my daughter to the Natural History Museum during one of their large exhibition days, and as I pulled up the parking attendants were waiving everyone to an offsite parking spot. I pulled up, asked if there are spaces available to park for EVs in their parking structure, the attendant radioed ahead, and waived me in to park in the structure because despite it being "full," all 12 banks of EV parking is empty except for 1 lonely Leaf. I smiled, paid my fee for parking like everyone else, but get to park within 100 steps to the entrance to the NHM while everyone else in line stared at me like I'm the biggest A-Hole in town and park about a mile away on the remote site. Range anxieties? I was driving the i3 (yes I have 2 EVs in the garage) to and from work, and on the way home I realized I won't have enough charge to make it. Pulled in to the nearest BMW dealership, plugged into the DC fast charger for 5 minutes (enough time to get a cup of coffee and a short chat with the beautiful receptionist, who looked like a younger Tera Patrick. Even has the assets to match), made it home with plenty to spare.

You guys are all looking at EVs from the wrong angle. I drive an EV (okay, 2 EVs) not because it's more environmental friendly. I drive them because they're far superior as commuter vehicles. I drive them because the EV technology will inevitably supplant a lot of ICE vehicles on the road today (it will likely not fully replace ICEs for at least another 2 decades). Look. When Apple first introduced a "phone" that has computing powers that rivaled supercomputers of the '70s, I looked at it from a skeptical eye and said "why would anyone ever need a camera, a web browser, and computer on their phone when my camera, computer, and browser on the computer does it all BETTER than the phone?" Yet 10 years later mobile computer is starting to supplant desktop computing.

You guys arguing that EVs don't have their place in the automotive world, are just like me 10 years ago. In 2 decades EV will be a mainstay for most luxury car and performance car line-ups, whether you like it or not. The pace that EV technology is advancing is several hundred times faster than how ICE tech is evolving. It is inevitable that all the shortcomings of EVs that you guys are harping on now, will all have been addressed and surpassed by EVs by 202x.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

100 miles from, not round trip. I do up to 600 miles a day.

So you have a ICE car that can go 600 miles a fill-up? Like a 4 cylinder turbo diesel? Or do you really spend $50-70 a day just on fuel with multiple fill-ups each day?

EV is clearly not for you. Heck if I was you, I'd reconsider a lot of life choices. 600 miles a day is commercial truck driver range. I believe there are laws in place for commercial truck drivers not to exceed 8 hours of driving, and at 600 miles (average 70mph) you would exceed that. You're basically spending 1/2 of your waking hours driving (and not working). Highly inefficient and frankly, a huge waste of time.

Honestly, you should move closer to "work." But hey, if you want to drive 600 miles a day, that's up to you. Maybe you have extenuating circumstances. It's just, even if that 100 mile per trip/600 mile per day driving is for work, I would seriously reconsider the choice, unless you drive for a living.

[Fundguy1]

No but i can fill up mid day at a gas station without having to search for a plug and sit for an hour to get home. I cover a territory. Southern half of Florida. Some places are 300 miles or more away. To close to fly. So you drive. Up at 4 am for a 9 am meeting, home at 10 pm.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I don't have one of the fancy "Tesla" EVs. I have a lowly Fiat 500e. You want visceral driving experience? The 500e handles curves and turns as well as ANYTHING BMW offers now, maybe short of the M models. And because it delivers ALL its torque down low, accelerating in and out of traffic is instantaneous. Nothing ICE can come remotely close to how quickly I can fill a gap since 1) it's always in the right gear, no downshifting needed (there's only 1 forward gear) and 2) center of gravity is so low that quick changes in steering direction happens like you're driving a go-kart. And despite only making a measly "140HP", because the 500e weighs in at a scant 2,600lbs, it is far more nimble and toss-able than anything BMW make, since just about anything under the BMW umbrella is at least 500 lbs heavier.

And all the other "inconveniences" you cite assumes that none of us "EV" owners have another car at home, or haven't figured out how to maximize our enjoyment of the vehicle around the limitations it presents. Need charging stations? There are charging stations everywhere in large metropolitan areas now, with more being added every day. Anecdotal rebuttal: Few weekends ago I took my daughter to the Natural History Museum during one of their large exhibition days, and as I pulled up the parking attendants were waiving everyone to an offsite parking spot. I pulled up, asked if there are spaces available to park for EVs in their parking structure, the attendant radioed ahead, and waived me in to park in the structure because despite it being "full," all 12 banks of EV parking is empty except for 1 lonely Leaf. I smiled, paid my fee for parking like everyone else, but get to park within 100 steps to the entrance to the NHM while everyone else in line stared at me like I'm the biggest A-Hole in town and park about a mile away on the remote site. Range anxieties? I was driving the i3 (yes I have 2 EVs in the garage) to and from work, and on the way home I realized I won't have enough charge to make it. Pulled in to the nearest BMW dealership, plugged into the DC fast charger for 5 minutes (enough time to get a cup of coffee and a short chat with the beautiful receptionist, who looked like a younger Tera Patrick. Even has the assets to match), made it home with plenty to spare.

You guys are all looking at EVs from the wrong angle. I drive an EV (okay, 2 EVs) not because it's more environmental friendly. I drive them because they're far superior as commuter vehicles. I drive them because the EV technology will inevitably supplant a lot of ICE vehicles on the road today (it will likely not fully replace ICEs for at least another 2 decades). Look. When Apple first introduced a "phone" that has computing powers that rivaled supercomputers of the '70s, I looked at it from a skeptical eye and said "why would anyone ever need a camera, a web browser, and computer on their phone when my camera, computer, and browser on the computer does it all BETTER than the phone?" Yet 10 years later mobile computer is starting to supplant desktop computing.

You guys arguing that EVs don't have their place in the automotive world, are just like me 10 years ago. In 2 decades EV will be a mainstay for most luxury car and performance car line-ups, whether you like it or not. The pace that EV technology is advancing is several hundred times faster than how ICE tech is evolving. It is inevitable that all the shortcomings of EVs that you guys are harping on now, will all have been addressed and surpassed by EVs by 202x.

Can you at least have the courtesy of looking at the thread topic and my response?

Thread topic pertains to M cars

My response pertains to M/Sports cars and whether or not an EV satisfies MY needs/desires and whether EV's can compete in price, performance/etc with current CI/ICE sports cars

They cannot.

Whether they WILL be able to compete at some future date is purely speculative

BTW.....that Fiat has to be the butt ugliest car offered for sale currently....uglier than the "Smart" car if thats possible......you've got balls to drive it........looks like there's room for improvement on safety as well

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-au...A0L24W20140122

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

I only spend 30-40 min max when on the road trip
Everytime you go to gas station you have to spend time, including driving there. It adds up when you do this every week or more often.
Argument of charging vs gassing up will become mute point

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

You are
Do a simple math of how much of your life you spend on gas stations

AndreyATC, your arguments are really untrue and puerile. The whole argument is childish; if you need to charge the vehicle and wait 45 minutes is cool because "the kids" need a break. But if you need to wait maxim 7 minutes to fill up an empty tank with 70 liters of gasoline is not ok.

Or you come up with charging at night procedure which will still take you 5 minutes put together to plug/unplug the vehicle.

I personally don't need even 10 minutes break, I put the gas buy two lottery tickets and I am on my way. You on the other hand are enforced to take that break, like it or not.
Do you hear or analyze your comments?

Attached, you have two pictures with two of the gas stations, one 3 streets away from my house and on my route to my house. As you can see, Google took the pictures on the same period, most likely the same day since they are on the same route.

Let me tell you how my driving to the gas station is : I am on my way, I make a right and 10 meters later I am in front of an unused pump. I swipe the card, I pick the gas and 7 minutes later I am gone. If the tank is empty. Nobody needs to go to the gas station; they are on the side of the road, all you need to do is to stop to fill up.

Please observe, how "busy" the gas stations are. If you want pictures from all on my route, I will gladly provide.

Secondly, nothing is free. Energy is not free and as soon as your community grows, once they have you, you will see.

Now you do the math, and please, be realistic.