[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Aus335iguy

For those of us that have experienced the dreaded throttle lag.... your transmission might need a flash and the car needs a service. I also believe it's the result of throttle adaptation by constantly driving in stop start traffic

I had all of the issues mentioned and as soon as I flashed the transmission with the 135is software and and did a walnut blast it became a beast. No throttle lag snappier shifts and added launch control. Happy days !

The bullshit about how much power they can handle is questionable as there are some big power cars running Getrag DCT with no issues.

I did. If you read any of my post in this thread, I tried the PPK and the firmware update called out by SIB 12-15-14. So what do you propose next? Oh and I even recently flashed the DME with a Dinan S2. The S2 tune pretty much fixed the complaints I had with the A/C off. But now that it's getting warm and I'm using the A/C more, all the issues I've complained about are back.

[MightyMouseTech]

And this is why I plan on never buying a new BMW again.

[scoleda]

Originally Posted by NickyC

Another day, another reason to not get another BMW.

PITCHFORKS!!!!

[AntDX316]

I thought the DCT clunk was a good thing but I find it's not a good thing anymore. It's probably in the same mental area as the louder the car is the better it is.

"We are now seeing automatic transmissions with nine and even 10 speeds, so there's a lot of technology in modern automatics," he said.
"The DCT once had two advantages: it was light and its shift speeds were higher.

"Now, a lot of that shift-time advantage has disappeared as automatics get better and smarter."

That pretty much sums up the reason.

This is probably the reason that made BMW think about this stuff.

"So why not just shop somewhere like the USA for a manual transmission that can cope with the output of big, burly V8 engines?
"We looked at US gearboxes. We found they were heavy and the shift quality was awful," he said."

Throughout this vid he says the shift quality sux

[-BEASTMW-]

"He said about 450 horsepower (335kW) and 600Nm was more or less the limit of manual-gearbox durability. Beyond that, he said, durability couldn't be guaranteed."

Did he forget that they've already made an M5/M6 with 575hp and 680Nm with a manual? What a tool.

I think he's full of crap. Maybe those transmissions lo be dead in their cars, but not overall. Can you imagine a GT3 RS with a torque converter auto? Not for a long time, if ever.

[M3 Number 86]

He's only vp of sales. Don't know what he's talking about.

[EvenKeel]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Yeah, this point is bs. Supercars are all dct. You're telling me they all have low torque numbers? And my 335i has a 1000hp clutch. Not much different feeling than stock. Z06 has them, zl1, etc. Same argument. This point is bull. Does BMW plan over 1000hp motors?

People need to read the article again....

Never once was it mentioned that DCTs are torque limited; the comment was made specific to traditional manual transmissions.

[KevinM]

Not surprised.

Anyone who reads my posts knows that I am a MT zealot (sorry). Clearly MTs are going the way of normally aspirated engines and rear-wheel drive. I will be sad when BMW stops offering MTs and hope that some brands like Porsche will continue to offer them on at least some cars.

In terms of DCT vs. auto...meh. Good automatics have improved so much I can't believe there is much of a difference (except that autos are probably smoother in automatic mode). Witness the Alfa Giulia QV...no one is complaining about the fact that it has an auto vs. a dual clutch.

[335REGULATION]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

If BMW continues their tradition of half assing DCT implementations, I say good riddence to DCTs. And this is from my own personal experience with the DCT in my 135i as well as others who have echo'd my experience of unacceptable throttle lag and lurching/jumping of the car while having your foot on the brake.

However, I would lament the demise of the manual transmission. Had I had a choice of getting a manual, I would have one now.

+1. I've own recent BMW ZF transmissions. No complaints, besides it is an auto. I've driven the DCT, very good transmission, but did not understand dealing with all the gimmicks for a basically "exotic auto." I currently own -a slower to all of the above- manual and I would not change it for anything.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by KevinM

Not surprised.

Anyone who reads my posts knows that I am a MT zealot (sorry). Clearly MTs are going the way of normally aspirated engines and rear-wheel drive. I will be sad when BMW stops offering MTs and hope that some brands like Porsche will continue to offer them on at least some cars.

In terms of DCT vs. auto...meh. Good automatics have improved so much I can't believe there is much of a difference (except that autos are probably smoother in automatic mode). Witness the Alfa Giulia QV...no one is complaining about the fact that it has an auto vs. a dual clutch.

I'd say drive them back to back day after day after day and you will see the difference clearly.

Those guys that review the cars drive them for 1 day.

and btw, my zf on the x5m is the same as the one on the guilia quad.

I am reconsidering any future M models if they switch to zf auto. I am going to have to pay up and get a Porsche.

[AntDX316]

Originally Posted by 335REGULATION

+1. I've own recent BMW ZF transmissions. No complaints, besides it is an auto. I've driven the DCT, very good transmission, but did not understand dealing with all the gimmicks for a basically "exotic auto." I currently own -a slower to all of the above- manual and I would not change it for anything.

'05 545i ZF6 '13 750xi ZF8.

Driven the F10 M5 and F86 X6M. I think the feel of the Ms were better because of the jolt but I considered that a superior thing but it seems to be an inferior thing. The reason for the delay of a non-DCT is because it has to analyze certain variables before executing the shift, like how it's going to shift pressure wise. With DCT I think it's shift irregardless of any variable so the times where it should adjust for it to be a smooth transition doesn't happen so the huge clunks appear. Personally, understanding this makes it smoother I assume but this is at the driver side.

Look at this vid.

[ailikesiliu]

hmm.ok. I think what he's saying is hurry up buy more f8x, no more manual or even dct for next gen but really?

[vasi_M3]

Originally Posted by JsL

Which car company does DCT implementation better? Not trying to be a smart a**, just curious.

Porsche PDK is the best dual clutch on the market. Ferrari has a very good calibration on some of their latest models too. The problem with DCT is that they seem to be stuck on 7 gears for the most part which isn't bad but it's not as efficient as a 10 speed auto for example

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by vasi_M3

Porsche PDK is the best dual clutch on the market. Ferrari has a very good calibration on some of their latest models too. The problem with DCT is that they seem to be stuck on 7 gears for the most part which isn't bad but it's not as efficient as a 10 speed auto for example

10 gears is great for... fuel economy.

it is not good for a track. see car and driver review of the camaro zl1 10 speed. They just let the computer take over.

There is a problem when you are shifting through that many gears entering a turn and exiting. the driver interaction becomes a distraction.

"The sheer number of gears removes a lot of the joy from manually paddling through the cogs. Not to mention that downshifts in this mode feel significantly slower and clunkier than when the gearbox is left to its own devices. Engineers did attempt to address the tedium of toggling through six or seven or ten gears by writing code that jumps to the lowest possible gear when you hold the left shift paddle, but we found the system to be wildly inconsistent. Sometimes the downshift was nearly instantaneous. At other times, whole seconds passed before the shift occurred. And sometimes, inexplicably, there was no shift at all, no matter how long we held the paddle."

One thing when you drive a sports car is you need the car to be consistent at all times, engine torque, hp, tranny response, handling. that is what makes a sports car great- that is how to become part of the machine, you know exactly what it will do at exactly the right time.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...l1-test-review

[Doctor///M]

I did my part. Buy manual folks!

[MacOSR]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Some have said it, but not clearly.

ZF makes the PDK for PORSCHE.

GETRAG makes the DCT for BMW. they also make DCT's for Ferrari, and AMG GTS.

The reason why bmw is dropping the DCT is money-

BMW needs a Longitudinal orientation DCT for its cars. This application for DCT's have maxed out on torque and will need further development money from BMW for Getrag to make it.

fyi- I have a ZF on my X5M and I have a DCT on my M3. There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE in driver engagement. The DCT is an automated Manual gearbox and behaves like one- and should be driven like one. The ZF behaves like any other automatic I have ever driven, just tweaked to make it instant and fast. I have posted about this before, but multi gear shifts are a blast in the DCT and smooth as silk, the ZF is smoother on 1 gear shifts, not 2-3 gear.

Here is what a zf does on a 3 gear shift from 7-4 vs a DCT: (done manually)

ZF: 7-6-4
DCT: 7-4

shift speeds are equal, the zf in my M is tweaked, it is unlike any other zf I have ever driven, x3, x5, 640i gc, etc. In auto mode the ZF is superior in every way, it can skip shifts at will when you floor it, etc.

the devil is in the details, and most companies bank on the fact that you are ignorant on the details.

I traded in my 2006 M5 and my 2016 M3 on an X5M. My only gripe when I first bought the X5M was that a DCT wasn't available. After having put 17,000 miles on the X5M I couldn't agree more with your comments.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by AntDX316

'05 545i ZF6 '13 750xi ZF8.

Driven the F10 M5 and F86 X6M. I think the feel of the Ms were better because of the jolt but I considered that a superior thing but it seems to be an inferior thing. The reason for the delay of a non-DCT is because it has to analyze certain variables before executing the shift, like how it's going to shift pressure wise. With DCT I think it's shift irregardless of any variable so the times where it should adjust for it to be a smooth transition doesn't happen so the huge clunks appear. Personally, understanding this makes it smoother I assume but this is at the driver side.

Look at this vid.

I think you make a great point, but keep in mind the auto zf with a torque converter also has the computer limiting torque on the shifts, which also explains why my x5m has a great launch time, but when you are shifting through the gears at rolling starts it is significantly slower. the computer is modulating my throttle for me. it is a joy sapper.

[AntDX316]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

10 gears is great for... fuel economy.

it is not good for a track. see car and driver review of the camaro zl1 10 speed. They just let the computer take over.

There is a problem when you are shifting through that many gears entering a turn and exiting. the driver interaction becomes a distraction.

"The sheer number of gears removes a lot of the joy from manually paddling through the cogs. Not to mention that downshifts in this mode feel significantly slower and clunkier than when the gearbox is left to its own devices. Engineers did attempt to address the tedium of toggling through six or seven or ten gears by writing code that jumps to the lowest possible gear when you hold the left shift paddle, but we found the system to be wildly inconsistent. Sometimes the downshift was nearly instantaneous. At other times, whole seconds passed before the shift occurred. And sometimes, inexplicably, there was no shift at all, no matter how long we held the paddle."

One thing when you drive a sports car is you need the car to be consistent at all times, engine torque, hp, tranny response, handling. that is what makes a sports car great.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...l1-test-review

I want shifts like this. :( Go to like 1:00 on.

[Revelator]

I'll be taking ownership of a 6MT 340 tomorrow--I went with the 340 over the S4 primarily because of the 6MT. Glad I didn't wait around for the G20 cause I'm doubting the M340 or whatever it will be called will offer a manual in 2019. I'll never understand why the manuals are a dying breed--there's no comparison to the level of engagement you get from a 6MT over an auto, no matter how many gears it is or how smooth it shifts. Will admit I yearn for an automatic in DC traffic, but that's about it. Two years after the manuals go off the market, BMW will reintroduce them again, only as $5K option with some 'special edition' bullshit tag on it.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Wait until the "save the manuals" guys learn torque-converter automatics are the least of their problems. If you believe autonomous vehicle and EV interest groups; internal-combustion engines and even driving a car yourself will be legislated away soon.

[jeremyr4]

To say this news is disappointing assuming current automatics (when used in manual mode) is a vast understatement. That being said, if they're able to deliver an automatic in manual mode that is equivalent to today's DCT or PDK then I don't think any of us would complain. But the reality is that, as of today, that isn't the case and therefore Auto < DCT/PDK for manual model BY A LONG SHOT. All I can say is that they better spend a LOT of time tweaking a standard ZF Auto for their implementation in M Cars or a LOT of us will be very disappointed.

With that behind me, here are some quick thoughts:

BMW -> By saying they can't make reliable DCTs that can handle more torque what they really mean is: "Porsche can make them on a Turbo S with fantastic reliability but either we can't or we won't due to cost or our inferior engineering". Either of these reasons is not good but that's the reality of this news. Yes - a third party is actually engineering the DCT but if Porsche can create a reliable PDK at higher torque loads then there is absolutely no excuse - it can be done.

Mercedes -> I test drove a C63s recently with the hope of buying one and one of the main reasons I didn't pull the trigger was the transmission. I can't comment on how it performs at medium/high speeds but at slower/city speeds - especially at low speeds and stops - it was really incomparable to the DCT. It was annoying enough that it was enough of a reason on its own for me not to pull the trigger. So if you haven't tried the newest wet clutch Mercedes setup in the city I would suggest you try it before thinking it's a good alternative to the DCT, as it just isn't in the same league. And I'm definitely not being biased for BMW when saying this - it was just in a different league.

Porsche -> I can't wait for the day that Porsche comes up with similar news for its customers ("we will no longer be making PDKs and we will be switching to automatics instead"). That is absolutely hilarious - just picture it. It's NOT going to happen in the foreseeable future and is further proof that this story by BMW makes no sense in terms of the reasoning that they used in this story. See my comment about BMW above for the likely real reasons behind this.

It's really interesting what has been happening with BMW and M enthusiasts like me and many people on these boards over the past 5-10 years:

- Softer cars overall (although the F8x series was a move in the right direction in some ways)
- Lack of road feel in electric steering
- Twin Turbo F8x series with noticeable (and annoying) turbo lag
- Horrible exhaust sound F8x series (I realize this is subjective but probably represents the majority opinion when compared to the previous gen + Mercedes, Porsche, and others)
- Interior quality in M cars that isn't close to the competition (ie. AMG)
- Need for true enthusiasts to buy more expensive later versions to get the raw experience they expect from M cars (ie. Comp Package exhaust and tweaked suspension/handling, CS models, etc)
- And finally this -> Switch to automatic!

I have a very long history of buying M cars (I owned 3 E46 series cars alone) but I think the automatic announcement might have finally cracked me. As much as I continue to love my E9x series with a modified exhaust, there are just too many reasons to leave BMW and I don't think I can stay with them anymore. I feel like my long-time girlfriend broke up with me and I have been hoping she would come back - but this news is making me realize she won't EVER come back. Very, very sad... I guess I will be taking a hard look at AMG and Porsche going forward, something I would have never considered only a few years ago.

If I don't stick around then I hope everyone enjoys their Automatic Ms - very sad...

[E9TOU]

This is coming from a sales and marketing guy. He doesn't give a crap about MT and DCT because he doesn't care about that stuff. If he could, he'd slap autos on all models to cut costs. No surprise since BMW has been chasing numbers for a long time now.