[Rafichicago]

The EPS is in the new cars for a few reasons. One fuel savings. There’s no hydraulic pump that is run with engine belt. Two to make all those assisted driving gizmos possible. Your lane departure warning. Steering assist etc. it will improve with time but still compared to old school hydraulic steering it will not feel the same.

[Rafichicago]

As for the grille IMO it’s ok to like it and it’s ok to bitch about it. I personally hate the way newest BMW design, so for the next vehicle I will probably look elsewhere. That’s all. I think it’s great we have so many choices available. It’s not like we have to buy BMW’s cause we have been doing so for the past 20 years.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

As for the grille IMO it’s ok to like it and it’s ok to bitch about it. I personally hate the way newest BMW design, so for the next vehicle I will probably look elsewhere. That’s all. I think it’s great we have so many choices available. It’s not like we have to buy BMW’s cause we have been doing so for the past 20 years.

The reason why I laugh about this is because it’s only a couple models that changed the grille. The rest of their fleet has the same old boring looking grille they’ve had for the last 30 years. I cannot understand why so many grown men throw in a tizzy fit over a couple of models changing the front of the car while at the same time BMW, leaving the rest of the fleet the same. This makes no sense to me so I’m left with nothing else to do but laugh. Corvette enthusiasts are doing the same thing. Meanwhile, just like BMW with the G80/82 Chevrolet with the Corvette is selling more than ever and can’t keep up. At least BMW still has ice cars. Look at Mercedes.

[freakystyly]

Not speaking for everyone, but the G80/82 grille is a symptom not the cause. They are still impressive cars but the styling is polarizing for many. The "unique" styling has already carried through to other vehicles and will soon be the entire lineup. That doesn't matter though because they can't keep their dealership lots full.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by Patton250

This makes no sense to me so I’m left with nothing else to do but laugh.

FYI you're the only one talking about the grille here. You might read the article in the first post or any of the other posts before jumping to conclusions.

[snareman]

Originally Posted by Patton250

The reason why I laugh about this is because it’s only a couple models that changed the grille. The rest of their fleet has the same old boring looking grille they’ve had for the last 30 years. I cannot understand why so many grown men throw in a tizzy fit over a couple of models changing the front of the car while at the same time BMW, leaving the rest of the fleet the same. This makes no sense to me so I’m left with nothing else to do but laugh. Corvette enthusiasts are doing the same thing. Meanwhile, just like BMW with the G80/82 Chevrolet with the Corvette is selling more than ever and can’t keep up. At least BMW still has ice cars. Look at Mercedes.

Because its a design language everyone has grown to know and love about BMW and it affected their most popular cars. As much as I think the new 7's are ugly I'm not in that market so it doesn't bother/affect me so much, whereas a BMW car buyers are in the 3/4 market.

[Rafichicago]

Yeah. Ugly is relevant. M3/4 grille is a freaking design marvel compared to new 7

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

FYI you're the only one talking about the grille here. You might read the article in the first post or any of the other posts before jumping to conclusions.

I read it. However, it still always comes back to the grille. Always. Don’t blame me. Although it was the new grille that got me interested in BMW over Mercedes and I bought my first BMW sedan the G80.

Originally Posted by snareman

Because its a design language everyone has grown to know and love about BMW and it affected their most popular cars. As much as I think the new 7's are ugly I'm not in that market so it doesn't bother/affect me so much, whereas a BMW car buyers are in the 3/4 market.

I understand you brother but many of the other models still have the exact same grille they’ve always had for the last 30 years. They only changed a couple. I mean, to satisfy “traditionalist” do absolutely every single one of the grilles have to look the same or basically the same? That’s a genuine question that I’m interested in. No other car manufacturer has the same front end on every one of their models. It doesn’t bother me that some people say they like it and some people say they don’t like it. What causes me to laugh is when people say they’re dumping the entire brand because a couple models have some design changes. It’s just freaking weird bro. The F80 looks nothing like the cars from the 1980s but no one really bitched about that. I guess because it’s grille look the same as every other model that came out those handful of years?

[Blue87]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

So, how does it drive?

I realize that's not that important these days. The Ultimate Streaming Machine?

I mostly like he way it drives, and even the partial synthetic intake noise, however, it oddly lacks brake and steering feel compared to the Q7 I previous had. It oddly drives like a large numb SUV, but the acceleration is extremely addictive. I dont think people buy SUVs for an all out sports car experience and instead are looking for practicality and in the case of the X5 M50i, some sport. there's nothing wrong with tecnhology unless you don't know how to use.

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by Blue87

there's nothing wrong with tecnhology unless you don't know how to use.

Nothing wrong with technology . . . unless it gets in the way of the driving experience.

Don't you already have enough technology in you pocket and in your home? How much more do you need in your car? Bluetooth, GPS, ABS, DTC, and HomeLink are enough for me. But then I don't use any Big Brother apps like Alexa in my home, either.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

Nothing wrong with technology . . . unless it gets in the way of the driving experience.

Don't you already have enough technology in you pocket and in your home? How much more do you need in your car? Bluetooth, GPS, ABS, DTC, and HomeLink are enough for me. But then I don't use any Big Brother apps like Alexa in my home, either.

Now you are getting to some of the BMW 'direction' issues. Many BMW users are wanting the latest technology integration. Anything less is a fault or BMW behind the times.

Look out on the wider forum and many of the topics involve connectivity. The emotion involved for the use of devices, can be just as strong as some have for driving dynamics.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Now you are getting to some of the BMW 'direction' issues. Many BMW users are wanting the latest technology integration. Anything less is a fault or BMW behind the times.

Look out on the wider forum and many of the topics involve connectivity. The emotion involved for the use of devices, can be just as strong as some have for driving dynamics.

These cars have technology and driving dynamics. I still don’t understand what all the complaining is about. If you don’t want the technology then don’t add the extra packages. They are options. Pretty simple stuff. I mean there are some things you can’t opt out of like power seats and the touchscreen. Are people really that upset about a touchscreen?

The only driving experience that’s really disappearing that I understand people not liking is the manual transmission. The Porsche guys are aggravated about this as well. I wish BMW had this option on all their vehicles but apparently anything that’s all wheel drive it can’t have a manual transmission. That’s too bad.

[Blue87]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

Nothing wrong with technology . . . unless it gets in the way of the driving experience.

Don't you already have enough technology in you pocket and in your home? How much more do you need in your car? Bluetooth, GPS, ABS, DTC, and HomeLink are enough for me. But then I don't use any Big Brother apps like Alexa in my home, either.

I suppose it depends on the feature. If I determine the feature can be of use, then I'll use it; otherwise, it will just sit there unconfigured. Yes, smartphones are very useful as are technology filled vehicles. Options are also great - you can choose to purchase items with minimal technology and features e.g. classic cars, flip phones etc. as well as purchase vehicles without any option packages.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Patton250

The only driving experience that’s really disappearing that I understand people not liking is the manual transmission. The Porsche guys are aggravated about this as well. I wish BMW had this option on all their vehicles but apparently anything that’s all wheel drive it can’t have a manual transmission. That’s too bad.

Obviously I see this from a European/UK perspective. We used to see the US market as the place where AT had the upper hand. Europe with its smaller engines were virtually all MT, both for cheaper pricing and fuel economy.

Then things changed. One of the biggest influences was the 'diesel' engine. Many users changed fuel, again for price and running cost. AT was improving and many users found AT mated to the diesel made for the best drivetrain. BMW were seeing little demand for MT in some of the models, so no problem to drop MT completely, part way through the model life cycle, or only offer AT from launch.

MT in the bigger diesel outputs could be very clunky, compared to the AT which worked well, pretty clear where the market was going.

Petrol also started suffered the same disinterest in MT. I recall a dealer had an E60 550i with MT, no way could they shift it without a huge discount. It was on their site for months, (nearly a year), gradually coming down in price. We were watching it on one of the UK forums. No takers, even among us BMW enthusiasts.

I remember a BMW sale guy I used, telling me (over 15-years ago) some of the MT models didn't make financial sense anymore. Trade in values were suffering as the low demand for MT, (even used), was inflating lease costs, due to poor residual values. Paying extra for the AT was cheaper to run over 3 - 4 years, than going MT. The market had moved on.

Engine outputs continually climbing, (particularly torque) has made it much simpler to use AT, plus xDrive for greater driving security.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I almost feel as if you didn't read my comment...

Most of these things are market directed and / or items BMW has no control over. Is your issue with BMW or the market in general? BMW still makes the most enthusiast oriented cars in its class.

You are probably looking for a 3 series the size of the current 2 series? hint, it exists... its an M235i gran coupe... ah, you want a car that size to be true RWD? So you want it to be even smaller inside due to RWD packaging and even more expensive than the M235i? The price point you end up would be an m340i... and the 10 people that would buy this theoretical car would severly complain the moment it's discontinued after 1 year due to no sales.

As far as EPS - again, completely market directed... guess what...? even Porsche does that... and without their Macan / Cayenne / Panamera... none of the 911s would exist today.

No, I read it and it's irrelevant whether or not BMW "had a choice".

In today's market the difference between BMW and other German luxury makes has narrowed considerably. With electrification it'll essentially disappear

[tracer bullet]

R&T wrote another article related to the original:

Electric Power Steering Is Not the Enemy

It does mention BMW of course, but isn't knocking the brand quite as much as the earlier article. Also describes how the bigger EPS motor dampens the feel but allows quicker steering inputs i.e. to control a slide.

[10"]

for me the E generation of BMWs was the last generation of very driving-oriented bimmers. After that they all felt too computerized to me—-but the G generation has gone even past that into non-enthusiast machines.

No a Ring lap time doesn’t impress me—neither does tech.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by 10"

for me the E generation of BMWs was the last generation of very driving-oriented bimmers. After that they all felt too computerized to me—-but the G generation has gone even past that into non-enthusiast machines.

No a Ring lap time doesn’t impress me—neither does tech.

As I see it, the world has moved on, so has BMW.

We have threads on here, (an "enthusiast's forum"), bemoaning lots of simple omissions, like the lack of pause button on the steering wheel, no delayed clearing wipe for windscreen washers, etc., etc.

What would it be like if BMW didn't fit driver aids, which require EPS as a basic hardware function? Imagine the backlash from both the enthusiasts and wider market.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by 10"

for me the E generation of BMWs was the last generation of very driving-oriented bimmers. After that they all felt too computerized to me—-but the G generation has gone even past that into non-enthusiast machines.

No a Ring lap time doesn’t impress me—neither does tech.

The G’s speed, handling, breaking and overall performance are leagues better than the E’s. It’s not even close. This is not opinion. It’s not even fair to compare the two. You would cancel all that out because of the new tech? I just don’t get it. I get why some of you hate the new grilles. I mean you’ve had the same grilles for 40 years and all of a sudden they radically change it. Men are pretty uncomfortable with change, but the fact that they have delivered significantly better performing vehicles, and people are upset about that because of a screen goes beyond my comprehension.

[Nahlem]

This is so common among many who are sceptic about change, its like the old saying people are like a train with different train cars, You have this train like an arrow it goes forward never straight forward but forward sense you can't go back that is at this time our physics doesn't allow for it, then in all of those cars you have those in the front of the cars who is shouting the loudest to BMW to keep pushing go further go faster and so on never stopping to look back those who drives the change. Who just loves the change for changer matters even if its worse in terms of engagement, touch screen and so on and so forth. Simply the folks who just keeps screaming GO FASTER.

Then you have those in the middle car they are mixed bunch of types, you have those also in there who screams for BMW to go faster but not as loud as those in front car of the train and you also have those who is more sceptical of the movement BMW is taking with the train although initially a bit hesitant but usually open minded and willing to accept the change as long as it is "good" <-- good is subjective in this manner.

Then you have those in last train car those who screaming the loudest to BRAKE THE train its going to drive of a cliff ! No further and so on and so forth. Those people are the ones who are most hesitant to the changes that is going on, if it were up to them they would rather of all if they could skip electric windows, i mean think of the day in case you drive of a cliff in to water what happens then?, why change something if it works already? Right we don't need change? Why change away from V8s and so on and so forth, come on BMW stay the same don't change. Change is not needed the product is perfectly balanced as all thing should be. Right?

And the middle car is where BMW is aiming to get people from that car to the front car. While trying to fish a few of those in the last train car who is close to the middle train car to get them to step in to the middle car they don't have to be so long in the front of the middle car but just get to the middle car.

Because those in the front car are simply the ones driving for changes. While at the same time when aiming there some of those in that middle car witch is the largest of all train cars you have those people who bounce between the front car and the last car depending on what changes BMW implements.

That is where BMW is trying to hit the nail. I guess it us up to each and everyone to see where they are in one of those cars. And remember this train will always stop at your command when or if you choose to get of that is up to each and everyone :-)

I guess that is what we are seeing across the board in both these forums and in the car journalism we are seeing today.

[tracer bullet]

I think the short of it, for a lot of us (me at least) is not a resistance to "change" but how it becomes more and more obvious that BMW has taken one of the aspects we love about the car, away, and done it on purpose. It used to be "why can't they have steering feel and feedback as good as _______". The answer is - they don't want to. That's what we are sad to realize.

I forget which video it was, for the new M2, and the wording was along the lines of "steering feel is not as good as Mazda or Porsche". Let the first part of that sink in for a second.

Cars, tech, and BMW move forward of course. We don't lament the new cars. We do lament their intentional removal of something we considered to be the biggest draw to the brand. It is what it is, but hopefully that clarifies things a little.

[Theruleslawyer]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

I think the short of it, for a lot of us (me at least) is not a resistance to "change" but how it becomes more and more obvious that BMW has taken one of the aspects we love about the car, away, and done it on purpose. It used to be "why can't they have steering feel and feedback as good as _______". The answer is - they don't want to. That's what we are sad to realize.

I forget which video it was, for the new M2, and the wording was along the lines of "steering feel is not as good as Mazda or Porsche". Let the first part of that sink in for a second.

Cars, tech, and BMW move forward of course. We don't lament the new cars. We do lament their intentional removal of something we considered to be the biggest draw to the brand. It is what it is, but hopefully that clarifies things a little.

Yup.They could do better with epas if they tried. The fact that they dont, not even on M cars says something. The "Driving experience" is not what they're selling anymore. It might be faster around a track, but people who really care about feel are going to have to look elsewhere. The reality is even the average M driver just wants to go fast in a straight line and look cool. Hunting down that last bit of steering feel will probably be too much NVH for the normal buyer.