[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Just throwing this out there

https://www.carscoops.com/2021/03/fl...or-most-sales/

The F80 came during an economic boom and it's when the M brand grew to larger than all of Acura (no joke btw). It's also when the M3 / M4 were split.

The E92 came during the middle of the greatest recession ever. These cars were on major discounts for a few years.

The E46 was so niche in the USA... that I have no idea where all of those cars would have wound up... but it sure wasn't here... plus remember that along with the M5, where the only M products then?

Wait till you see the G80 numbers and see how many were produced in the 1st 3 years vs the F80

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by ASAP

The F80 came during an economic boom and it's when the M brand grew to larger than all of Acura (no joke btw). It's also when the M3 / M4 were split.

The E92 came during the middle of the greatest recession ever. These cars were on major discounts for a few years.

The E46 was so niche in the USA... that I have no idea where all of those cars would have wound up... but it sure wasn't here... plus remember that along with the M5, where the only M products then?

Wait till you see the G80 numbers and see how many were produced in the 1st 3 years vs the F80

For sure. But look at the numbers prior to the e9x. I wouldn’t say the first mass market M3 was the e9x. Also, global populations have increased significantly along with middle class and upper class wealth particularly in developed nations. China alone probably accounts for half of the growth in M3/4 demand if I had to take a wild guess. The G8x will be off the charts. To date at least 50k have been sold, IIRC.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I agree that all out acceleration is not a good metric for a fun performance car - that's why the G80x is a dead weight to me.

However, it is ultimately how cars can be compared objectively... and that's what will end up selling these cars vs the product entirely failing. This is why there needs to be a balance and the F80 IMHO met that balance really well... mixed excitement and feel with performance.

The M3 was a mass product since the E92 days... I would argue E46 wasn't... as BMW M was a small brand then that didn't diverge into SUVs etc yet and it was strictly for enthusiasts... but not turned 180 degrees around and made it as mass of a product as possible. Which is why now to get true feel - you will pay the piper and that piper is Porsche

Not to ask the obvious, but, why do they need to be compared objectively?

As in, if 0-60 isn't a measure of how fun a car is, why is it something to desire?

I think my favorite thing about Tesla (Model S plaid in particular) is how clearly it demonstrates that acceleration is not a measure of how sporty a car is. The plaid is legit unpleasant to drive (I actually found the acceleration to be nauseating), but out accelerates any sports car sold.

I don't like the e92 as much as the e46 (probably clearly, since I've had 3 e46 M3s, including 2 that were purchased new, and zero e92 M3s... though I did have an e91), but I do think it is solidly in the real M car camp. Has steering feel, has a properly NA high revving low torque engine, is rwd, can be had in manual, etc. It's also not a driving experience overwhelmed by its engine.

The sticking point for me on Porsche is the back seat. When I go to the track I like to put my track tires in the back seat (tools/gear in the trunk), and at not the track I put my kid back there. Come kid move out time, I may reevaluate that. Until then... I'm probably stuck with my fleet of ever aging M cars.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

For sure. But look at the numbers prior to the e9x. I wouldn’t say the first mass market M3 was the e9x. Also, global populations have increased significantly along with middle class and upper class wealth particularly in developed nations. China alone probably accounts for half of the growth in M3/4 demand if I had to take a wild guess. The G8x will be off the charts. To date at least 50k have been sold, IIRC.

It would be great if China's coming collapse led to good M cars again

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by ASAP

i don't know if i believe that.. those are fleet averages... M3s are a tiny percentage of all sales... remember they still have a gas guzzling N63 that goes in a ton of 5, X5 and X7....

Don't underestimate the pressure from the threat of huge fines have had on companies like BMW, in Europe.

Been discussed over here for years, about companies like BMW who have a higher percentage of bigger engines, than some of the manufacturers.

Why do we think Mercedes are trying for 4-pot engines in the AMG range?

BMW have actively 'downsized engines', (with increased outputs) as a positive strategy to help reach targets. It is well documented and the results achieved over the past few years are out there to see.

We need to thank all those buying BMW 3 & 4-pot turbo engines, helping get those fleet averages down, to allow the more powerful models to continue existing.

[Innovade]

It all started going down hill when Albert Biermann left.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Don't underestimate the pressure from the threat of huge fines have had on companies like BMW, in Europe.

Tesla was able to expand and to grow much more quickly because of their $$$ from carbon credits from the industry stalwarts. It was one of the biggest blunders by BMW and Mercedes and VW/Audi/Porsche and Stellantis and Toyota and Honda and Ford and GM etc. to allow that to happen - otherwise we wouldn’t even be in this predicament. But of course something had to happen to push the industry in the EV direction, and fuel prices are high - especially in Europe and the UK but elsewhere as well. Bottom line is Tesla was off building something from the ground up while everyone else sat on their hands, then they got financially rewarded and everything changed for the worse for enthusiast ICE.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by ASAP

The F80 came during an economic boom and it's when the M brand grew to larger than all of Acura (no joke btw). It's also when the M3 / M4 were split.

The E92 came during the middle of the greatest recession ever. These cars were on major discounts for a few years.

The E46 was so niche in the USA... that I have no idea where all of those cars would have wound up... but it sure wasn't here... plus remember that along with the M5, where the only M products then?

Wait till you see the G80 numbers and see how many were produced in the 1st 3 years vs the F80

That's a good point. The F80 launched during times of uber low interest rates, cheap leases (people were getting these for under $1000/mo), and a lot of growth in wealth globally. Makes sense why it sold so much.

I had driven it a couple times and it always left me a bit cold...didn't have the compact and nimble nature of the E9X M3...F8X felt too refined. But what alternatives were there really? The C63 and RS5 weren't great to drive, and the Giulia QV came from a relatively unknown brand that couldn't figure out quality control to save its life.

[F32Fleet]

How is AMG doing?

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Yes, and what part of that makes the car more FUN and Exciting to drive over it's predecessor?

Many G8X owners prefer the linear delivery of all that power, doing it's best to feel like a NA engine. I, for one, did not enjoy the spiky nature of the F80 power plant, which had an early plateau of thrust, thus lessening the excitement as the tach raced towards the redline. It almost felt "too turbocharged" at times.

The more linear power delivery and tq curve that doesn't feel like anything happens until 4k w a heavier body just makes it lug around that much more... that's great on a track, not really the street.

Not quite. Yes, the G8X in "efficient" mode has loads of turbo lag and lugs around until you absolutely floor it.

But of course this changes at the tap of a button when you go to Sport Plus mode for throttle and engine sensitivity. Then all you need to do is keep the engine at around 3,000 RPM or higher and then there's little lag and a nice linear thrust as you rush towards the red line. And, as the numbers show, it's fast.

Also, you can ensure to keep the engine on boil yourself if you use the paddles or of course with the manual. Problem solved.

And oh, by the way, in efficient mode, this 500+ horsepower engine is quite, well, efficient...like 30 mpg on the highway if it's a long stretch.

As far as better chassis... yes I agree there 100%, it's much more composed... but again, arguably at the expense of fun on the street as the limits are so high.

Even being careful, the G8X is certainly fun on the street....because it is quite composed, turn-in is relatively crisp, and it's simply fast as hell when you're in Sport+. Hec, if anything, it's almost too fast, because 100 mph appears so quickly...and it's just getting started.

I do agree with you though, that because of its high limits, you're almost never going to approach these limits on the street. And that is indeed a bummer, and hinders maximum fun. You need a track. But, in MDM mode or with the 10-stage traction control, you can have some serious fun on the street while keeping the car in check and under control. Again, the BMW engineers got this chassis dialed in remarkably well. Most agree that the G8X's mechanical aspects - specifically the way it accelerates, turns, and stops - are marvelously and cohesively engineered.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Many G8X owners prefer the linear delivery of all that power, doing it's best to feel like a NA engine. I, for one, did not enjoy the spiky nature of the F80 power plant, which had an early plateau of thrust, thus lessening the excitement as the tach raced towards the redline. It almost felt "too turbocharged" at times.



Not quite. Yes, the G8X in "efficient" mode has loads of turbo lag and lugs around until you absolutely floor it.

But of course this changes at the tap of a button when you go to Sport Plus mode for throttle and engine sensitivity. Then all you need to do is keep the engine at around 3,000 RPM or higher and then there's little lag and a nice linear thrust as you rush towards the red line. And, as the numbers show, it's fast.

Also, you can ensure to keep the engine on boil yourself if you use the paddles or of course with the manual. Problem solved.

And oh, by the way, in efficient mode, this 500+ horsepower engine is quite, well, efficient...like 30 mpg on the highway if it's a long stretch.



Even being careful, the G8X is certainly fun on the street....because it is quite composed, turn-in is relatively crisp, and it's simply fast as hell when you're in Sport+. Hec, if anything, it's almost too fast, because 100 mph appears so quickly...and it's just getting started.

I do agree with you though, that because of its high limits, you're almost never going to approach these limits on the street. And that is indeed a bummer, and hinders maximum fun. You need a track. But, in MDM mode or with the 10-stage traction control, you can have some serious fun on the street while keeping the car in check and under control. Again, the BMW engineers got this chassis dialed in remarkably well. Most agree that the G8X's mechanical aspects - specifically the way it accelerates, turns, and stops - are marvelously and cohesively engineered.

Too fast and grippy to be fun on the street.

To large and heavy to be fun on the track.

There's a reason I don't track my (G80 sized) M5s, despite them having engines (and steering) better suited to it than the G80-- their size and weight makes them less fun on track, and go through tires and brakes at a stupid rate.

... I do prefer the power delivery of the G80 to the F80, but it's just flavors of cancer (turbos).

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Many G8X owners prefer the linear delivery of all that power, doing it's best to feel like a NA engine. I, for one, did not enjoy the spiky nature of the F80 power plant, which had an early plateau of thrust, thus lessening the excitement as the tach raced towards the redline. It almost felt "too turbocharged" at times.



Not quite. Yes, the G8X in "efficient" mode has loads of turbo lag and lugs around until you absolutely floor it.

But of course this changes at the tap of a button when you go to Sport Plus mode for throttle and engine sensitivity. Then all you need to do is keep the engine at around 3,000 RPM or higher and then there's little lag and a nice linear thrust as you rush towards the red line. And, as the numbers show, it's fast.

Also, you can ensure to keep the engine on boil yourself if you use the paddles or of course with the manual. Problem solved.

And oh, by the way, in efficient mode, this 500+ horsepower engine is quite, well, efficient...like 30 mpg on the highway if it's a long stretch.



Even being careful, the G8X is certainly fun on the street....because it is quite composed, turn-in is relatively crisp, and it's simply fast as hell when you're in Sport+. Hec, if anything, it's almost too fast, because 100 mph appears so quickly...and it's just getting started.

I do agree with you though, that because of its high limits, you're almost never going to approach these limits on the street. And that is indeed a bummer, and hinders maximum fun. You need a track. But, in MDM mode or with the 10-stage traction control, you can have some serious fun on the street while keeping the car in check and under control. Again, the BMW engineers got this chassis dialed in remarkably well. Most agree that the G8X's mechanical aspects - specifically the way it accelerates, turns, and stops - are marvelously and cohesively engineered.

What is the value of making a turbo motor feel VERY NA lol?

It's almost as if you are fighting against the very thing that makes it so great.... TQ down low for a daily driver is one of the best things around. I really think this is why so many G80 M3s get traded around... people don't have a chance to test drive them... then they do and realize it's way different than what they expected.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Not to ask the obvious, but, why do they need to be compared objectively?

As in, if 0-60 isn't a measure of how fun a car is, why is it something to desire?

I think my favorite thing about Tesla (Model S plaid in particular) is how clearly it demonstrates that acceleration is not a measure of how sporty a car is. The plaid is legit unpleasant to drive (I actually found the acceleration to be nauseating), but out accelerates any sports car sold.

I don't like the e92 as much as the e46 (probably clearly, since I've had 3 e46 M3s, including 2 that were purchased new, and zero e92 M3s... though I did have an e91), but I do think it is solidly in the real M car camp. Has steering feel, has a properly NA high revving low torque engine, is rwd, can be had in manual, etc. It's also not a driving experience overwhelmed by its engine.

The sticking point for me on Porsche is the back seat. When I go to the track I like to put my track tires in the back seat (tools/gear in the trunk), and at not the track I put my kid back there. Come kid move out time, I may reevaluate that. Until then... I'm probably stuck with my fleet of ever aging M cars.

It's something to desire because you can't have lower class cars be just as fast in modern times... people will immediately see some sort of value equation that just doesn't work out. Then the inevitable Youtube videos will be posted showing a cheaper car beating an M car... and guess what? This will whether you like it or not... impact sales.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Too fast and grippy to be fun on the street.

Too large and heavy to be fun on the track.

This is all relative.

Certainly smaller and lighter on a track is more fun than bigger and heavier. That's a no-brainer.

But a G8X is still fun and fast on a track, and it was designed that way.

On the street, a lot of enthusiasts do want fast and grippy, which is why most G8Xs are sold with AWD, and, as if 500+ hp is not enough, many get their G8Xs tuned for even more power.

So what you want is not what everyone wants. BMW is selling to a broader audience of enthusiasts.

There's a reason I don't track my (G80 sized) M5s, despite them having engines (and steering) better suited to it than the G80-- their size and weight makes them less fun on track, and go through tires and brakes at a stupid rate.

Yes, less fun than smaller and lighter, but a bigger car can still be fun in its own right.

...just like most Lotuses are decidedly more fun to track than even the smallest BMWs (they're lighter, have better steering and a better chassis), but that's not saying that a 1M or M2 (or an old E30 M) are still not fun. Again, it's all relative.

As for bigger cars at the track, yes, it's expensive...but that holds true for newer 911s vs. the old 911 platforms. Old ones were much lighter and much cheaper to track. No different for M models. You gotta play to pay.

But, really, like 95% (or more) of most late model M owners don't track their cars, so this is a moot point. For most, great track times are just for bragging rights.

Originally Posted by ASAP

What is the value of making a turbo motor feel VERY NA lol?

It's almost as if you are fighting against the very thing that makes it so great.... TQ down low for a daily driver is one of the best things around. I really think this is why so many G80 M3s get traded around... people don't have a chance to test drive them... then they do and realize it's way different than what they expected.

The value is engagement and excitement. The F8X S55 putters out around 5,700-5,800 rpm, so you may as well just shift at that point.

But in the S58, it's still building power right up until the redline, so then one gets the benefit of taking the engine to 7,200 rpm...which for many of us is more exciting than simply a torque-monster engine that delivers all of its power (and thrills) early with nothing left up top.

But, it sounds like you don't mind if all the torque arrives early and often, which is fine. For me, and many others, the F8X power delivery wasn't quite thrilling enough, even though it was still fast as hell.

The G8X is a pretty good combination of a turbo engine (with enough torque down low) coupled with the ability to produce power throughout the rev range. This is not easy to achieve. And the S58 still has a bit of turbo lag early in the rev band (all street-derived turbos do, it's unavoidable)....but once the G8X starts to make power, it's simply a steady, swift rush right up to the redline.

[OriginalFake]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Too fast and grippy to be fun on the street.

To large and heavy to be fun on the track.

There's a reason I don't track my (G80 sized) M5s, despite them having engines (and steering) better suited to it than the G80-- their size and weight makes them less fun on track, and go through tires and brakes at a stupid rate.

... I do prefer the power delivery of the G80 to the F80, but it's just flavors of cancer (turbos).

I know this is all opinions but I've driven the G80 on both the street and track and it was a lot of fun in both situations. To be fair, I haven't driven every single iteration of M cars (just the E92 and F80) but I enjoyed the G80 more than both of those.

I won't argue that the weight will make you go through tires and brakes at a much faster rate because that's just physics but I had a blast on the track with the G80.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by ASAP

The E92 came during the middle of the greatest recession ever. These cars were on major discounts for a few years.

The E90/92 was a stupid steep price increase, which BMW regretted immediately. Used Porsche FTW x11ty billion.

Originally Posted by OriginalFake

To be fair, I haven't driven every single iteration of M cars (just the E92 and F80) but I enjoyed the G80 more than both of those.

You're not an M-Car guy, you're a luxury sport guy. There is quite a difference. No one that has driven/enjoyed an E30 through FX anything would be happier with a G.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

The E90/92 was a stupid steep price increase, which BMW regretted immediately. Used Porsche FTW x11ty billion.

Yeah I paid 79 for a loaded e93. Wasn’t outrageous was it. Drove it 30k and sold for 59

[omasou]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Yeah I paid 79 for a loaded e93. Wasn’t outrageous was it. Drove it 30k and sold for 59

Way back (90's) I was initially drawn to BMW b/c I could add a few packages and own a nicely configured vehicle. The E36 M3 and M2 where even better one package, maybe another option done.

I forget when but some time after the E46 M3, when I attempted to configure a new M3/M4 the options were outrageous and after clicking endless checkboxes of feature that "I" would want the price climbed so high as to make me laugh and close the web page.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

This is all relative.

Certainly smaller and lighter on a track is more fun than bigger and heavier. That's a no-brainer.

But a G8X is still fun and fast on a track, and it was designed that way.

On the street, a lot of enthusiasts do want fast and grippy, which is why most G8Xs are sold with AWD, and, as if 500+ hp is not enough, many get their G8Xs tuned for even more power.

So what you want is not what everyone wants. BMW is selling to a broader audience of enthusiasts.



Yes, less fun than smaller and lighter, but a bigger car can still be fun in its own right.

...just like most Lotuses are decidedly more fun to track than even the smallest BMWs (they're lighter, have better steering and a better chassis), but that's not saying that a 1M or M2 (or an old E30 M) are still not fun. Again, it's all relative.

As for bigger cars at the track, yes, it's expensive...but that holds true for newer 911s vs. the old 911 platforms. Old ones were much lighter and much cheaper to track. No different for M models. You gotta play to pay.

But, really, like 95% (or more) of most late model M owners don't track their cars, so this is a moot point. For most, great track times are just for bragging rights.



The value is engagement and excitement. The F8X S55 putters out around 5,700-5,800 rpm, so you may as well just shift at that point.

But in the S58, it's still building power right up until the redline, so then one gets the benefit of taking the engine to 7,200 rpm...which for many of us is more exciting than simply a torque-monster engine that delivers all of its power (and thrills) early with nothing left up top.

But, it sounds like you don't mind if all the torque arrives early and often, which is fine. For me, and many others, the F8X power delivery wasn't quite thrilling enough, even though it was still fast as hell.

The G8X is a pretty good combination of a turbo engine (with enough torque down low) coupled with the ability to produce power throughout the rev range. This is not easy to achieve. And the S58 still has a bit of turbo lag early in the rev band (all street-derived turbos do, it's unavoidable)....but once the G8X starts to make power, it's simply a steady, swift rush right up to the redline.

I personally don't want a turbo motor that has no life until 4K... to me that misses the point of a turbo motor... especially when the car is overtly heavy and is meant to be a daily driver... when I drove the G80 few things bothered me more than that.

Also the S55 has a lot of get up down low and can actually be revved higher lol... than the S58 because it doesn't have a fake autobox limitation. There may not be much up there but you can rev till you heart is content.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I personally don't want a turbo motor that has no life until 4K... to me that misses the point of a turbo motor... especially when the car is overtly heavy and is meant to be a daily driver... when I drove the G80 few things bothered me more than that.

Also the S55 has a lot of get up down low and can actually be revved higher lol... than the S58 because it doesn't have a fake autobox limitation. There may not be much up there but you can rev till you heart is content.

If you're complaining about turbo lag in the S58, especially compared to the S55, then you just weren't driving the G8X right (or maybe it wasn't in a Sport setting).

"The S58 makes 480hp at 6250rpm with its 405 lb-ft torque peak available from 2650-6130rpm while the version found in Competition models makes 510hp also at 6250rpm while its torque peak of 479 lb-ft spreads from 2750-5500rpm; the S58’s redline is at 7200rpm."

And with launch control, the G8X is supremely quick. So if there is lag, the G8X hides it pretty damn well.

And of course, the pure performance of the G8X platform speaks for itself...on the road and at the track.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by omasou

Way back (90's) I was initially drawn to BMW b/c I could add a few packages and own a nicely configured vehicle. The E36 M3 and M2 where even better one package, maybe another option done.

I forget when but some time after the E46 M3, when I attempted to configure a new M3/M4 the options were outrageous and after clicking endless checkboxes of feature that "I" would want the price climbed so high as to make me laugh and close the web page.

Have you been the website lately? There’s like five options and half don’t cost anything. Just saying. You can blow it up but don’t need to. Have you seen Porsche?

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Yeah I paid 79 for a loaded e93. Wasn’t outrageous was it. Drove it 30k and sold for 59

At the time I didn't have $80K to spend, but was in protest of the weight anyway, so it wouldn't have mattered. I made the mistake of wanting the E9X to be lighter than the E46. If you love the E9X cars for what they are, they're fantastic. I still want one haha.