[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by Fly320s

But he isn't! "He's dead, Jim."

Besides, one only needs one gun to commit mass murder; an old revolver would do the trick. Or one car. Or one barrel of homemade AnFO.

But only by the grace of Gd.
Gun ownership stats will help you understand the prob with your second paragraph.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

The poor cop had no chance.
I wonder how many guns the perp owns?

Murf

I'm thinking the felled officer should have quickly gone to the other side of the pick up quickly after speaking to him, standing behind it before the killer opened the door so he could see if he was packing something.

[Fly320s]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

But only by the grace of Gd.
Gun ownership stats will help you understand the prob with your second paragraph.

1. It is OK to spell out God. That isn't a bad word.
2. I don't follow your second point.

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by Fly320s

1. It is OK to spell out God. That isn't a bad word.
2. I don't follow your second point.

Spelling out Gd is considered improper in some circles. I don't want to offend.
Some don't capitalize it either.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

Spelling out Gd is considered improper in some circles. I don't want to offend.
Some don't capitalize it either.

There's too much of 'oh my Gd' why not just 'oh my goodness'.

[mahalom3]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Sad loss of life. Better tactics might've saved this officer's life.

I totally agree with you on this one. This shows you how a traffic stops can go from 0 to a 100 in a split second. Passenger approach is good on a busy highway or freeway but we are trained to always watch their hands because the Hands will kill you ( 1.Fatal Error). I would always approach with caution, observe and always remember time is on your side. I do have my handgun out especially at night. Once you make contact, always ask the driver to keep his hand on the steering wheel, if the person is a bit hesitant and fidgety as long as you see their hands, call for a back. If you feel your spider sense is tingling, work your way back to your unit and find cover and wait for your 11 10 to arrive. My academy is 26 weeks and the training/tactics we get here in SoCal from CA Post is very important.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by mahalom3

I totally agree with you on this one. This shows you how a traffic stops can go from 0 to a 100 in a split second. Passenger approach is good on a busy highway or freeway but we are trained to always watch their hands because the Hands will kill you ( 1.Fatal Error). I would always approach with caution, observe and always remember time is on your side. I do have my handgun out especially at night. Once you make contact, always ask the driver to keep his hand on the steering wheel, if the person is a bit hesitant and fidgety as long as you see their hands, call for a back. If you feel your spider sense is tingling, work your way back to your unit and find cover and wait for your 11 10 to arrive. My academy is 26 weeks and the training/tactics we get here in SoCal from CA Post is very important.

What a mess, the problem is when dealing with someone who is goal oriented and has the determination to kill you the advantage falls on the criminal. What a shame. I don't know anything more about this, was the suspect wanted or just completely offside over the traffic offences?

[mahalom3]

Originally Posted by Murf993

What a mess, the problem is when dealing with someone who is goal oriented and has the determination to kill you the advantage falls on the criminal. What a shame. I don't know anything more about this, was the suspect wanted or just completely offside over the traffic offences?

We surely can't profile but once you insatiate the TS, I have dispatch ran their plates, the RO to get intel who I am dealing with for officer safety. To be honest with you I don't do a lot of traffic stops anymore.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by mahalom3

We surely can't profile but once you insatiate the TS, I have dispatch ran their plates, the RO to get intel who I am dealing with for officer safety. To be honest with you I don't do a lot of traffic stops anymore.

It's been quite a while since I was in a scout car, and I only worked in a rural area or on a highway for a short period of time when I first got on in '85. Most of my time in uniform was in the downtown core, but the tactics should be the same. I always ran the plate and RO on the work station before the stop, but you don't always know who's in the car.

It was difficult to tell from the recording but did the officer know the gun was in the car? I gather that isn't completely unheard of in the US, here in Canada the rules are pretty strict about transporting guns legally anyway. It almost sounded like the officer had some discussion about the gun with the guy before he exited the truck.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

The killer was so quick shooting the officer in the head, had no chance and no reason to believe he was in danger stopping him about legality of tint windows and check reg papers.
Thank goodness the nutter was terminated before killing someone else.

Originally Posted by Littlebear

The poor cop had no chance.
I wonder how many guns the perp owns?

Murf

That officer had plenty of chance. For one, the passenger side approach is more disadvantageous. I would've gotten on the PA and told the driver to move his vehicle further off the road so I could offset my vehicle and approach the driver's side. Secondly, he had to ask the guy multiple times to step outside of the vehicle and walk back to his car so he could run him (...something we never do here in Cali, but New Mexico obviously has different tactics). After asking a second time, I would've requested back-up regarding an uncooperative motorist. I could go on, but tactics failed this officer. It's really unfortunate.

Originally Posted by M5Rick

I'm thinking the felled officer should have quickly gone to the other side of the pick up quickly after speaking to him, standing behind it before the killer opened the door so he could see if he was packing something.

You're on the right track. The officer should've approached from the driver's side from the very beginning.

Originally Posted by mahalom3

I totally agree with you on this one. This shows you how a traffic stops can go from 0 to a 100 in a split second. Passenger approach is good on a busy highway or freeway but we are trained to always watch their hands because the Hands will kill you ( 1.Fatal Error). I would always approach with caution, observe and always remember time is on your side. I do have my handgun out especially at night. Once you make contact, always ask the driver to keep his hand on the steering wheel, if the person is a bit hesitant and fidgety as long as you see their hands, call for a back. If you feel your spider sense is tingling, work your way back to your unit and find cover and wait for your 11 10 to arrive. My academy is 26 weeks and the training/tactics we get here in SoCal from CA Post is very important.

Agreed!

Originally Posted by mahalom3

We surely can't profile but once you insatiate the TS, I have dispatch ran their plates, the RO to get intel who I am dealing with for officer safety. To be honest with you I don't do a lot of traffic stops anymore.

A lot of our peers have slowed down on traffic stops. The reasons vary however. I don't do as many as I used to, but when I do, I make sure to let my sister car know.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Murf993

It's been quite a while since I was in a scout car, and I only worked in a rural area or on a highway for a short period of time when I first got on in '85. Most of my time in uniform was in the downtown core, but the tactics should be the same. I always ran the plate and RO on the work station before the stop, but you don't always know who's in the car.

It was difficult to tell from the recording but did the officer know the gun was in the car? I gather that isn't completely unheard of in the US, here in Canada the rules are pretty strict about transporting guns legally anyway. It almost sounded like the officer had some discussion about the gun with the guy before he exited the truck.

It seems like the AR was hidden on the driver's side. As soon as he exited the vehicle he had the AR in hand. We have strict transport rules here in CA too, but criminals don't follow rules.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

That officer had plenty of chance. For one, the passenger side approach is more disadvantageous. I would've gotten on the PA and told the driver to move his vehicle further off the road so I could offset my vehicle and approach the passenger side. Secondly, he had to ask the guy multiple times to step outside of the vehicle and walk back to his car so he could run him (...something we never do here in Cali, but New Mexico obviously has different tactics). After asking a second time, I would've requested back-up regarding an uncooperative motorist. I could go on, but tactics failed this officer. It's really unfortunate.




You're on the right track. The officer should've approached from the driver's side from the very beginning.



Agreed!




A lot of our peers have slowed down on traffic stops. The reasons vary however. I don't do as many as I used to, but when I do, I make sure to let my sister car know.

It wasn't uncommon with us to slide by when another car put themselves out on a traffic stop or if they were our investigating anyone on the street regardless of them asking.....if nothing else we'd certainly try to be in the general area incase things went sideways.

I've never got the idea of approaching the passenger side, your angle is shit for seeing the driver and making it harder for him to see you when you approach, the offset was terrible, I agree that he could've used the PA to get the guy a bit further off the road. The thing is, it's usually a bunch of little things that create the bad situation, trying to eliminate any advantages for the bad guys and maintaining our advantage is the main thing.

I won't criticize the officer in this one and just hope that others who watch this might use this video and recognize where things can go wrong. At the end of the day you can never eliminate all the threats.

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

That officer had plenty of chance....

Second guessing is always easier. I see it more like Murf#2:

"What a mess, the problem is when dealing with someone who is goal oriented and has the determination to kill you the advantage falls on the criminal."

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

Second guessing is always easier. I see it more like Murf#2:

"What a mess, the problem is when dealing with someone who is goal oriented and has the determination to kill you the advantage falls on the criminal."

Originally Posted by Murf993

It wasn't uncommon with us to slide by when another car put themselves out on a traffic stop or if they were our investigating anyone on the street regardless of them asking.....if nothing else we'd certainly try to be in the general area incase things went sideways.

I've never got the idea of approaching the passenger side, your angle is shit for seeing the driver and making it harder for him to see you when you approach, the offset was terrible, I agree that he could've used the PA to get the guy a bit further off the road. The thing is, it's usually a bunch of little things that create the bad situation, trying to eliminate any advantages for the bad guys and maintaining our advantage is the main thing.

I won't criticize the officer in this one and just hope that others who watch this might use this video and recognize where things can go wrong. At the end of the day you can never eliminate all the threats.

I agree and I don't want to sound overly critical. It just pains me to see a brother lose his life when certain things were under his control. Simply requesting back-up might've saved this officer's life.

Originally Posted by Littlebear

Second guessing is always easier. I see it more like Murf#2:

"What a mess, the problem is when dealing with someone who is goal oriented and has the determination to kill you the advantage falls on the criminal."

I'm not second guessing anything. Not all training is created equally. His tactics could've been better. That is a fact!

[Fly320s]

Originally Posted by Murf993

I don't know anything more about this, was the suspect wanted or just completely offside over the traffic offences?

The officer said he stopped the car because the window tint was too dark.

The driver was on his way to a drug deal, according to an article I read.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I agree and I don't want to sound overly critical. It just pains me to see a brother lose his life when certain things were under his control. Simply requesting back-up might've saved this officer's life.




I'm not second guessing anything. Not all training is created equally. His tactics could've been better. That is a fact!

When I was first on the job we got lots of training around the tactics of traffic stops, but then the annual Use of Force training began to shift to dealing predomenently with EDP's, and were almost always in the training rooms using SIM round and deescalation. Sometime it was out on the street, and after Columbine we did lots of active shooter stuff in school settings. I can't for the life of me remember when we did any tactical training around a traffic stop. I suppose the basics haven't changed really though but it seems that theses types of incidents are more common now.

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I agree and I don't want to sound critical. It just pains me to see a brother lose his life when certain things were under his control.
I'm not second guessing anything. Not all training is created equally. His tactics could've been better. That is a fact!

He also could have been dealt a better hand to play. The cop was not holding the ace of spades, if you know what I mean.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Fly320s

The officer said he stopped the car because the window tint was too dark.

The driver was on his way to a drug deal, according to an article I read.

I heard the window tint remarks from the officer, and I don't know if he ran the marker and RO or did I hear him say there were temporary tags on the truck.

I suppose different agencies and individual officers do things differently. Sedan_Clan mentioned asking for back up, some guys I worked with never asked, they'd to stops of people and vehicles and you'd never know they were out of their car. I almost always would broadcast my location and if there was anything that I didn't like ask to see another car.

Someone said "time is on your side", very true. Actually a few simple points, time, distance and the hands will kill you. Slow things down, you get paid by the hour. No worries about letting someone sit in their car waiting for you to get it right.

[mahalom3]

Originally Posted by Murf993

I heard the window tint remarks from the officer, and I don't know if he ran the marker and RO or did I hear him say there were temporary tags on the truck.

I suppose different agencies and individual officers do things differently. Sedan_Clan mentioned asking for back up, some guys I worked with never asked, they'd to stops of people and vehicles and you'd never know they were out of their car. I almost always would broadcast my location and if there was anything that I didn't like ask to see another car.

Someone said "time is on your side", very true. Actually a few simple points, time, distance and the hands will kill you. Slow things down, you get paid by the hour. No worries about letting someone sit in their car waiting for you to get it right.

Again, watch the hands! My gun is out at this point. I would have kept him inside his vehicle. Never let anyone dictate your TS unless it has something to do with any medical issues.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Murf993

When I was first on the job we got lots of training around the tactics of traffic stops, but then the annual Use of Force training began to shift to dealing predomenently with EDP's, and were almost always in the training rooms using SIM round and deescalation. Sometime it was out on the street, and after Columbine we did lots of active shooter stuff in school settings. I can't for the life of me remember when we did any tactical training around a traffic stop. I suppose the basics haven't changed really though but it seems that theses types of incidents are more common now.

We teach a lot of tactics regarding stops (...approach, contact/bookman duties, lights forecasting positions, etc.)

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by mahalom3

Again, watch the hands! My gun is out at this point. I would have kept him inside his vehicle. Never let anyone dictate your TS unless it has something to do with any medical issues.

Yes! The moment the motorist starts trying to dictate my stop, it's on!!!

[UncleWede]

That was a hell of a PIT at the end!

Were those officers, or just good Samaritans for the first officer?