[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by VANOS

He’s trying to say that EV is way ahead of hybrid cars when it comes down to performance or sports cars.

True. But didn’t BMW suggest a true M car with hybrid tech a few years back? I keep waiting for that sad announcement.

[VANOS]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

True. But didn’t BMW suggest a true M car with hybrid tech a few years back? I keep waiting for that sad announcement.

They actually did, but who knows! They also mentioned an EV M3 is to come out soon, but I really don’t know anymore with BMW loll.

[tsbrown]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

True. But didn’t BMW suggest a true M car with hybrid tech a few years back? I keep waiting for that sad announcement.

Can't forget the XM launched a year ago and G90 M5 in another month or so. I drove the XM...no thanks, at any price. And the M5 will have the same drive train but "only" ~5300 lbs

[bavarianboar]

Originally Posted by Blue Angel

Designers (styling)
Engineers (Engineering)

Quite different.

Fair point!

I think you forgot about:

Design engineering
Engineering design

[tsbrown]

Originally Posted by Scrapula

In my neck of the woods that $300k a year is solidly middle class. Everyone is an engineer at Microsoft, Amazon, Google, Boeing, etc. I have a cheap middle class home that would sell for $750k in a middle class suburb. If I lived in Redmond, Kirkland or Bellevue then my house would be $1.2 million. Because we only had a $340k income, we had to move 30 miles further out.

CA, OR, and WA are only 15% of the country population. That may be the reality there but 85% of the country doesn't see it that way. Throw in Chicago, Boston and NYC and the surrounding areas that may have similar cost of living as the west coast and that number goes up, but the argument still holds that the majority of the country doesn't need that income to be solidly middle class. Thankfully that's the case where I live.

[ChiltiCoatl89]

Wow, a power move and a benefit to both companies!!! Great news++++!

[Scrapula]

Originally Posted by tsbrown

CA, OR, and WA are only 15% of the country population. That may be the reality there but 85% of the country doesn't see it that way. Throw in Chicago, Boston and NYC and the surrounding areas that may have similar cost of living as the west coast and that number goes up, but the argument still holds that the majority of the country doesn't need that income to be solidly middle class. Thankfully that's the case where I live.

Well, we all pay the same price for cars, groceries, clothes, appliances, etc. I think I am better off with higher housing costs and higher wages. I used to live in Florida. We made less money but paid more for electricity and water 15 years ago than I pay in Washington now. That’s part of the reason why I moved. Same job but better lifestyle. The people not living in cities aren’t buying EVs anyway, so the tax credit is really a waste.

[USDMM3]

ICE for sports cars and EV for everything else. Let’s be real most of you just daily your cars. For that special weekend drive or track day you use your “baby”. EV daily just makes sense.

E93
997.2 GTS
Tesla Model Y

[GOLFFRR]

nice

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Jason

Even before we reach 2030, battery-electric vehicles will account for over half of global vehicle sales.

Well, in 2023, as best as I can tell* full BEV sales were at 12.6%. And the curve is flattening.

So we shall see. Color me skeptical.

(I say best that I can tell because I had difficulty finding true numbers. Most articles I saw posted "Electric" vehicles and proceeded to include Hybrid, PHEV, etc. The best I could find was this article, which stated that full BEV sales were at 9.5 million

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...on-2024-01-11/

And this one which said global sales were 75.3 million

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...es-since-1990/

)

[Scrapula]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Well, in 2023, as best as I can tell* full BEV sales were at 12.6%. And the curve is flattening.

So we shall see. Color me skeptical.

(I say best that I can tell because I had difficulty finding true numbers. Most articles I saw posted "Electric" vehicles and proceeded to include Hybrid, PHEV, etc. The best I could find was this article, which stated that full BEV sales were at 9.5 million

https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...on-2024-01-11/

And this one which said global sales were 75.3 million

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...es-since-1990/

)

What’s that saying? There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

When I took stats, we were taught how to manipulate data to our viewpoint.

You can look at pure BEV companies like Tesla. Their sales either went up or down depending on the stats. Compare Q1 2023 to Q2 2024 and their sales are down. That’s a good stat for the naysayers. But, they are ignoring the other quarters. Just looking at 2023, the first quarter was the worst quarter of the year.

BMW breaks down EV sales but not by model. They did say that the i4 was their best selling model (also the most affordable). By model, they group the cars together. It’s impossible to figure out. They sold 376,183 BEVs in 2023 which is 15% of all their sales. Their goal for 2024 is 500,000 cars, only time will tell.

[DB_Cooper]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

So when BMW is going to admit (through changing their marketing and sales techniques), that USA wants effectively nothing to do with fully electric toy cars, and everything to do with hybrids? I give it 1-3 years tops.

Hydrogen

[tsbrown]

Originally Posted by Scrapula

Well, we all pay the same price for cars, groceries, clothes, appliances, etc. I think I am better off with higher housing costs and higher wages. I used to live in Florida. We made less money but paid more for electricity and water 15 years ago than I pay in Washington now. That’s part of the reason why I moved. Same job but better lifestyle. The people not living in cities aren’t buying EVs anyway, so the tax credit is really a waste.

But we don’t all pay the same price for those things. I know because most of the year I live in a low cost of living mid sized midwestern/southern city and the other part of the year in a high cost northeastern city. Prices are different and disposable income after living expenses are covered depends on where I am. I also had a kid in college in LA so I’m fully aware of cost of living there. I see quite a few Teslas, because they are half the market, in both locations but I would guess most early adopters here in KY did it more as a flex of their buying power.

Back on the subject of the thread, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Rimac technology used first in M cars, due to lower volume, higher performance and likely better weight.

[antzcrashing]

Originally Posted by antzcrashing

So when BMW is going to admit (through changing their marketing and sales techniques), that USA wants effectively nothing to do with fully electric toy cars, and everything to do with hybrids? I give it 1-3 years tops.

I would like to make one follow-up to this statement,
The BMW i4, iX, and i5 (thus far) are outstanding BMW vehicles. My original statement that USA “doesn’t want fully electric cars”, is more to do with the demographics (financial wealth) and mindset (chargin infrastructure is severely lacking) among US auto buyers.

[Vmaxx]

Here’s another example of an automaker changing their strategy on EVs. There have been many others making similar decisions because the demand for EVs simply isn’t there.
https://www.motor1.com/news/715792/a...on-cars-2030s/

[Scrapula]

This is BMW’s strategy.
https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/finan...ication&curl=1

[Effen]

Could be interesting

[Vmaxx]

Originally Posted by Scrapula

This is BMW’s strategy.
https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/finan...ication&curl=1

That strategy is not written in stone and BMW has since said that it hasn’t locked in a strategy for future M vehicles. The next generation of M cars maybe EVs, hybrids, or some models may remain ICE. Based on what we’ve seen over the past few months it wouldn’t surprise me if BMW also leans towards extending ICE vehicles, especially for M vehicles such as the M2 and M3.

[NSX2M4]

Whatever happens, after owning the R1S I will hold my F82 until a all electric M4 drops.
You are comparing caveman tech to computerized precision when comparing ice to EV.Turbos are 60-70 years old!
Unfortunately, chassis development lacks because the technology is too modern. I know BMW will figure it all out.

[tsbrown]

Originally Posted by Vmaxx

That strategy is not written in stone and BMW has since said that it hasn’t locked in a strategy for future M vehicles. The next generation of M cars maybe EVs, hybrids, or some models may remain ICE. Based on what we’ve seen over the past few months it wouldn’t surprise me if BMW also leans towards extending ICE vehicles, especially for M vehicles such as the M2 and M3.

Exactly. It’s why they hedged their bets on the 5er and 7er so they could lean into BEV, PHEV, or ICE based on market demand.

[Blue Angel]

Originally Posted by bavarianboar

Fair point!

I think you forgot about:

Design engineering
Engineering design

I was an automotive "Design Engineer" in a previous life. It just meant Engineer/CAD Designer.

The "Design Studio" was where styling took place.

[Blue Angel]

Originally Posted by NSX2M4

Nah, you're just another rude ass canuck.

Dammit, another one? We're multiplying!