[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

How exactly is it a double dip?

Simple:

• Government profits off the loans via loan interest.
• Government also profits off the increase in lifetime earnings via increased tax revenue due to wage increases and reduced reliance on welfare programs.

Meanwhile, government bears unusually low risk since the loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy.

When you borrow for a mortgage the bank doesn't get to simultaneously charge you interest on the loan and tax you on the increased equity since you've owned the home...

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

Simple:

• Government profits off the loans via loan interest.
• Government also profits off the increase in lifetime earnings via increased tax revenue due to wage increases and reduced reliance on welfare programs.

Meanwhile, government bears unusually low risk since the loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy.

When you borrow for a mortgage the bank doesn't get to simultaneously charge you interest on the loan and tax you on the increased equity since you've owned the home...

When you borrow on a mortgage you don't stop paying interest when your taxes go up either. One has nothing to do with the other so it is not at all double dipping. Everyone's taxes go up when they earn more. It is kind of shocking to think people think the way you think. JFC.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

When you borrow on a mortgage you don't stop paying interest when your taxes go up either. One has nothing to do with the other so it is not at all double dipping. Everyone's taxes go up when they earn more. It is kind of shocking to think people think the way you think. JFC.

I wasn't aware that you paid taxes to your mortgage lender...

I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept for you to understand.

The original intention for the student loan program, as I understand it since I'm much younger, was to reduce the cost on the wider society for funding college education where most people lack degrees. Using the "revenue" from the student loan program to lower the net cost to society can make sense.

It doesn't make sense to turn that program into something that generates profits for the government at the expense of students and the wider society.

But these discussions always descend into personal attacks like you levied against me. Meanwhile, our nation slips further and further behind with no sign of stopping the slide.

Increasingly our colleges are filling up with international students. Our own population is increasingly skipping college due to its cost burden and threatens our lead in almost all major sectors of our economy. We'll continue to fill those spots with college degree holders from other nations or see industries, like tech, move out of the US.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/f...ts-in-the-u-s/

But keep pretending it was like when you were a kid and College cost less than an iPhone does today and we have no need for software engineers or mechanical engineers to build chips and so forth and so on.

[cbpip]

Originally Posted by LivingInSalt

Reparations first. Then student loan debt.

What a joke.

[p0p]

I see this as getting 18-30ish year old's to vote a cretin way - even though it will never happen - It is an election year after all

[Gemini562]

So the idea behind canceling student loan debt is kind of like hitting a big reset button for a lot of people. You know how student loans can be a massive burden, right? Well, when folks are stuck paying off huge amounts of debt, they're less likely to do stuff like buy houses, start businesses, or just splash out on things that keep the economy buzzing. I mean it's pretty stressful having that financial cloud hanging over you.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by Gemini562

So the idea behind canceling student loan debt is kind of like hitting a big reset button for a lot of people. You know how student loans can be a massive burden, right? Well, when folks are stuck paying off huge amounts of debt, they're less likely to do stuff like buy houses, start businesses, or just splash out on things that keep the economy buzzing. I mean it's pretty stressful having that financial cloud hanging over you.

I'm also sure that cloud is a major reason why the birth rate is so low. People are concerned they can barely provide for themselves with clouds like that hanging over them so why start families?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57003722

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

I wasn't aware that you paid taxes to your mortgage lender...

I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept for you to understand.

The original intention for the student loan program, as I understand it since I'm much younger, was to reduce the cost on the wider society for funding college education where most people lack degrees. Using the "revenue" from the student loan program to lower the net cost to society can make sense.

It doesn't make sense to turn that program into something that generates profits for the government at the expense of students and the wider society.

But these discussions always descend into personal attacks like you levied against me. Meanwhile, our nation slips further and further behind with no sign of stopping the slide.

Increasingly our colleges are filling up with international students. Our own population is increasingly skipping college due to its cost burden and threatens our lead in almost all major sectors of our economy. We'll continue to fill those spots with college degree holders from other nations or see industries, like tech, move out of the US.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/f...ts-in-the-u-s/

But keep pretending it was like when you were a kid and College cost less than an iPhone does today and we have no need for software engineers or mechanical engineers to build chips and so forth and so on.

Maybe I can put it in terms you understand:

Let's say you have a lender (student loans, mortgage or otherwise) who is not the federal government. Now you graduate and start earnings money and your taxes increase. You still have to pay the loan per its original terms and still have to pay your taxes. The fact that your taxes increased has zero impact on your responsibility to repay the loan and the fact that you have a loan has zero impact on your responsibility to pay taxes.

Now assume the lender is the U.S. government. Explain to me how that changes anything in terms of your responsibilities.

Another example: You have a fixed rate mortgage and a variable rate HELOC with the same bank. Interest rates increase and your interest and payments increase on the HELOC. You still have to pay your fixed mortgage. One has nothing to do with the other. It is not "double dipping" by the lender. The payments are made in accordance with the terms of the contracts.

Also, I had student loans the were the equivalent of a year and 1/2 of my first year's salary (tuition was less, but so were salaries), with the remainder funded by scholarships received due to academic achievement and grants because I was poor. If I didn't have the scholarships and grants I would not have gone to the school I attended and likely would have started in community college. I also picked a major I expected would provide job opportunities and have earnings growth, both of which were accurate. The interest on my consolidated loans was 9%. They were repaid over 16 years because it was my obligation to pay them. It wasn't easy, especially for the first 5-10 years. I'm not sure how the population turned into victims and lost the ability to think constructively to plan their future, but it sure seems like that is a big part of the problem.

Finally, the federal government is not profiting from student loans, undermining your entire premise anyway.

[Suds]

I worked full time while I went to college for 8 years to get a Mechanical Engineering degree from a no name university, mostly at night, all year around and no student loans because I didn’t want them.
So, why should someone like me be burdened with their poor choice debt?

[Gemini562]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

I'm also sure that cloud is a major reason why the birth rate is so low. People are concerned they can barely provide for themselves with clouds like that hanging over them so why start families?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57003722

Yep, If you're unsure about your financial future because of student debt, it's totally understandable to hit pause on adding more responsibilities.

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by Suds

I worked full time while I went to college for 8 years to get a Mechanical Engineering degree from a no name university, mostly at night, all year around and no student loans because I didn’t want them.
So, why should someone like me be burdened with their poor choice debt?

As did my daughter and got her Masters in accounting. No debt.

I didn't get the opportunity to go to college as we lived on the "wrong side of the tracks" and I couldn't get a loan. I couldn't afford to send my kids to college because the illegals get free college here in the PRK.

Why should WE the People be required to pay back someone else's loan? They agreed to pay back the loan when they signed the papers. I am NOT responsible for someone else's loan!

Apparently a little known fact these days is the gummint does NOT have its own source of income. The money the gummint uses to pay part or all of someone's loan (doesn't matter the purpose of the loan) is confiscated (stolen) from We the People. NO, the gummint should NOT be involved in ANY type of loan guarantees!

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by Gemini562

Yep, If you're unsure about your financial future because of student debt, it's totally understandable to hit pause on adding more responsibilities.

If it is an individual, sure.

When it gets to the point where we are now that it is affecting larger and larger shares of the population then we have to take a step back and understand the problem.

Student loans are complex piece of the puzzle as the increased cost of education and the increased debt burden of students leaving colleges and universities are turning students away from seeking higher education. When our country is increasingly in need of highly skilled labor to stay globally competitive.

It will get even worse over the next decade as "AI" becomes even more pervasive. We're going to see the reduction of labor in whole swatches of the labor pool.

The lower skilled the labor the easier it will be for AI to take it over. Even entry level "skilled" labor jobs will also be getting eroded. We need a labor pool with skills that can keep our nation at the forefront of the technology curve, but we can't even get chip factories operational in the US due to a serious lack of skilled labor. We're trying to move chip manufacturing back to the US due to the increasingly realistic risk that China will invade Taiwan and disrupt our access to the chips that are key to everything we do. Yet we can't due to an insufficient labor pool in the nation. That's deeply concerning.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...-insufficient/

The Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC) was supposed to have its first Arizona chip factory operational by late 2024 but now has confirmed significant delays. Primarily due to a shortage of technical workers with critical expertise in the US, TSMC projects to finish construction instead by 2025.

[murderspice]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

Maybe I can put it in terms you understand:

Let's say you have a lender (student loans, mortgage or otherwise) who is not the federal government. Now you graduate and start earnings money and your taxes increase. You still have to pay the loan per its original terms and still have to pay your taxes. The fact that your taxes increased has zero impact on your responsibility to repay the loan and the fact that you have a loan has zero impact on your responsibility to pay taxes..

His point was that an educated citizen is likely to earn more money and therefore pay more taxes. So not only is the govt earning interest on that student’s loan, but also getting more tax revenue when that student goes on to earn an (ideally) increased salary (bc they have a higher paying job). Hence, “double dipping.”

[murderspice]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

If it is an individual, sure.

When it gets to the point where we are now that it is affecting larger and larger shares of the population then we have to take a step back and understand the problem.

Student loans are complex piece of the puzzle as the increased cost of education and the increased debt burden of students leaving colleges and universities are …

“Skilled labor shortage” is code for “we dont want to pay local labor rates.” If they cant find skilled labor, its because they arent looking.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by murderspice

His point was that an educated citizen is likely to earn more money and therefore pay more taxes. So not only is the govt earning interest on that student’s loan, but also getting more tax revenue when that student goes on to earn an (ideally) increased salary (bc they have a higher paying job). Hence, “double dipping.”

As I previously responded, that is not “double dipping” but rather separate responsibilities. It is absurd to think a loan payment should be reduced because you need to pay more taxes as your income increases or that you should get a discount on taxes because you have a loan. It is simply an invalid attempt at making a point.

[noemon]

Originally Posted by Suds

I worked full time while I went to college for 8 years to get a Mechanical Engineering degree from a no name university, mostly at night, all year around and no student loans because I didn’t want them.
So, why should someone like me be burdened with their poor choice debt?

You are looking at this all wrong.

The vast majority of the planet does not charge students for education.

Think of it this way instead, why should you work to pay for your mech engineering, when a German, French, Dane, Swede doesn't pay anything to get the same degree.

Why should all Americans be burdened with extreme uni fees, when the Chinese or the Europeans aren't?

Evidently, if the US wants to be part of the civilised world, if it wants to be just towards its citizens when compared to other countries and if it wants to increase young families, procreation and such, not only should it cancel all student debt but also cancel all university fees too, forever.

Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc

Why should WE the People be required to pay back someone else's loan? They agreed to pay back the loan when they signed the papers. I am NOT responsible for someone else's loan!

But you actually are.

You are directly responsible for not only allowing but also for arguing in favour of a system that charges fees for education. You are directly responsible for being unable to comprehend that education and health are public goods in advanced industrialised societies provided for free for the advancement & betterment of the country itself. You are also directly responsible for failing to comprehend that health and education in the US already cost more money to the taxpayer to be private than it costs for other countries to provide them both for free on a per capita basis. This is nuts. Medicine costs? Another US scandal, why do American-made medicine in Greece and Italy cost something like 1/100 of what they cost in the US? And why aren't you the US taxpayer already on the streets tearing the whole thing down for such obvious profiteering on your backs?

You are of course directly responsible for allowing your government, hospitals and universities to rob you and others blind. Because not only you have not done anything to change this system but you are defending it too.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by noemon

You are looking at this all wrong.

The vast majority of the planet does not charge students for education.

Think of it this way instead, why should you work to pay for your mech engineering, when a German, French, Dane, Swede doesn't pay anything to get the same degree.

Why should all Americans be burdened with extreme uni fees, when the Chinese or the Europeans aren't?

Evidently, if the US wants to be part of the civilised world, if it wants to be just towards its citizens when compared to other countries and if it wants to increase young families, procreation and such, not only should it cancel all student debt but also cancel all university fees too, forever.

Or, those seeking this type of system could move to a country with a system that better suits them, and apply for citizenship, much like others do when they come to the U.S.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

As I previously responded, that is not “double dipping” but rather separate responsibilities. It is absurd to think a loan payment should be reduced because you need to pay more taxes as your income increases or that you should get a discount on taxes because you have a loan. It is simply an invalid attempt at making a point.

Far from invalid.

The government should be aiming for improving society not turning a profit. Government gives income and property tax breaks to businesses for moving to an area to create jobs for this very reason. PPP loans were totally forgiven under this same premise.

The government shouldn’t be exploiting students as they are here.

[noemon]

Originally Posted by noemon

You are looking at this all wrong.

The vast majority of the planet does not charge students for education.

Think of it this way instead, why should you work to pay for your mech engineering, when a German, French, Dane, Swede doesn't pay anything to get the same degree.

Why should all Americans be burdened with extreme uni fees, when the Chinese or the Europeans aren't?

Evidently, if the US wants to be part of the civilised world, if it wants to be just towards its citizens when compared to other countries and if it wants to increase young families, procreation and such, not only should it cancel all student debt but also cancel all university fees too, forever.



But you actually are.

You are directly responsible for not only allowing but also for arguing in favour of a system that charges fees for education. You are directly responsible for being unable to comprehend that education and health are public goods in advanced industrialised societies provided for free for the advancement & betterment of the country itself. You are also directly responsible for failing to comprehend that health and education in the US already cost more money to the taxpayer to be private than it costs for other countries to provide them both for free on a per capita basis. This is nuts. Medicine costs? Another US scandal, why do American-made medicine in Greece and Italy cost something like 1/100 of what they cost in the US? And why aren't you the US taxpayer already on the streets tearing the whole thing down for such obvious profiteering on your backs?

You are of course directly responsible for allowing your government, hospitals and universities to rob you and others blind. Because not only you have not done anything to change this system but you are defending it too.

I just want to add a couple of things to my post so to not get misunderstood.

1) I do not believe that Biden or the Democrats are capable of performing this kind of major reform.

2) I do not believe that all student debt should be cancelled if education fees are not cancelled at the same time.

3) If the government wants to cancel debt as a pre-election giveaway without cancelling fees, then the cancellation of debt should be income specific and not apply to everybody as that will create massive inflationary pressures so the cancellation of debt should be restricted for those who genuinely suffer from it.

4) Such major reforms as the ones I propose can only be undertaken on a bi-partisan basis.

5) Come elections, I will be supporting Trump. Reason is, I want the Ukraine war to be over and he is only one who will deliver this.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

Far from invalid.

The government should be aiming for improving society not turning a profit. Government gives income and property tax breaks to businesses for moving to an area to create jobs for this very reason. PPP loans were totally forgiven under this same premise.

The government shouldn’t be exploiting students as they are here.

His explanation made sense, but my bad you said it's valid so I guess that's that.

Look. Let's just assume EVERYTHING you say is legit and it's double dipping and the schools are shady and preying on students etc.

How does me paying for your student loans (because it's not forgiveness... no such thing... it's redistribution of student loans to people who didn't take them out) solve all your claimed issues with the educational system?

Is it student loan forgiveness AND ban on future government backed student loans? Is it student loan forgiveness AND overhaul of the higher education system? Is it student loan forgiveness AND shutting down of these predatory practices by colleges?

No.

[noemon]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

His explanation made sense, but my bad you said it's valid so I guess that's that.

Look. Let's just assume EVERYTHING you say is legit and it's double dipping and the schools are shady and preying on students etc.

How does me paying for your student loans (because it's not forgiveness... no such thing... it's redistribution of student loans to people who didn't take them out) solve all your claimed issues with the educational system?

Is it student loan forgiveness AND ban on future government backed student loans? Is it student loan forgiveness AND overhaul of the higher education system? Is it student loan forgiveness AND shutting down of these predatory practices by colleges?

No.

He's got a point LogicalApex.

If this student debt cancellation is merely a Democrat pre-election giveaway scheme without a major reform of the university fee system, which it appears to be so, then it should not be supported. Half-arsed schemes ALWAYS and without fail cause more trouble than they solve and using tax-payer money to fund election campaigning is just adding insult to injury as well as inflation and without a major overhaul on the fee system, it is merely throwing away money in a bottomless bucket.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

Far from invalid.

The government should be aiming for improving society not turning a profit. Government gives income and property tax breaks to businesses for moving to an area to create jobs for this very reason. PPP loans were totally forgiven under this same premise.

The government shouldn’t be exploiting students as they are here.

Well unfortunately, I seem incapable of demonstrating to you the flaw in your statements, or you are unwilling to listen, or both. The federal government does not profit from student loans and are not exploiting students as you claim.

I am fully in favor of reforms which would allow these debts to be discharged in bankruptcy like other debt (with the bankruptcy staying on one's credit report until the original maturity date of the loan), with corresponding increases in interest rates to cover the expected losses, and limits on borrowing determined on likely ability to pay based on statistical averages of earnings from selected areas of study, again to protect taxpayers from defaults. There are plenty of options to get an education without incurring six figures of debt, as discussed throughout this thread, there are need and merit based subsidies from government and private sources, and there are some program to reduce payments for people in certain jobs post-graduation. All of this information and all of these options are available to anyone willing to do the work to figure it out. The system is, in fact, designed to benefit society even if you or I or anyone else doesn't agree with the design or have different ideas on how to improve its flaws.

The vast majority of the U.S. population is not going to be in support of unlimited free higher education for as long as one wants, in any field of study the choose. Even if they were and something like that were implemented, taxes would necessarily increase (perhaps through a surcharge on the college educated to make it more palatable to the population at large?) and you'd still be paying for it. There is no "free" and it is in fact fair in the view of the vast majority of people for borrowers to repay their debts with interest and taxpayers to pay their taxes.

Good luck to you in life.