[tranquility]

Cost not being an issue, (and if it matters, a condo instead of house) what is the best heating system? A/C is always set up near the ceiling because cold air falls so that's optimized and to my basic layman knowledge, they're either via the forced air duct or separate in-wall units and I don't really have a preference there.

I notice many luxury units use forced air for heating but I really don't like it for several reasons: the ducts are high, so it's inefficient as the air has to force its way down and it's noisy and causes dust to fly around. Conversely, I really like baseboards as they are usually strategically-placed right underneath windows to cut off any drafts and they are silent.

I'm not familiar w other heating systems or if they are even popular anymore in the N Amer mkt for new condos.

Anyway, that's my 2Cs, more informed opinions are welcome.

[nyalpine90]

condos have regulations when it comes to renovating.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by nyalpine90

condos have regulations when it comes to renovating.

I'm not talking about that though *shrug*, just what's the best setup if you had a choice. I did mention *new* condos so not sure where you came up w that idea.

[nyalpine90]

when you add something that wasnt there before its consider renovation.
it doesnt matter how old the building or condo is.

Condos have Alteration Agreements, states what your allow to do and what is not allow.

[CYANiDE]

As someone who suffers from allergies, I'm a huge fan of baseboard heat and central AC combination. That's the setup I have at my home in NJ. The only downside to this setup is zones - I have a single zone setup in a split level, so temperature inconsistency is a problem but not a big deal.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by nyalpine90

when you add something that wasnt there before its consider renovation.
it doesnt matter how old the building or condo is.

Condos have Alteration Agreements, states what your allow to do and what is not allow.

You're way off somewhere smoking something....I'm just asking is what's the best system, nothing to do w renos or anything pre-existing. Jeez, pay attn.

[oVeRdOsE.]

hate air furnace system :

- take space
- wind factor (air speed = more convection losses on your body = less comfort)
- Same principle as above, wind factor create a air flow in front of cold surface (windows walls) and increase the heat looses.
- move dust
- cancel air stratification
- noise
-maintenance
- most system you can't do zoning, 1 thermostat (even if you have manual dampers, T°out will always varies)

Pros are :
- cheap to buy and operate
- easy to combine with a heat pump for cooling and heating. On heating side you can have a nice coefficient of performance (COP - 3 and higher) .


So if you look at ASHRAE 55, its says :
- 50% of the comfort comes form surfaces T° (radiation)
-Then air movement (lower better in heating time)
- Then humidity
- then only 6% comes from air temperature.


That been said, this is why air forced system are not so great for comfort.

here what I like to design :

- Great air ex-changer to move the air slowly and having around 0.1 to 0.5 ACH.
- AC Split unit in a specific spot and near the air ex-changer return.
- heating floor. So here you can go electric, but water is best since you can combine it with a heat pump .
A lot of people think electric heat floor is not efficient, because 1kw power = 1 kw heat(or less), but since you have less air movement, more T° on surface (ASHRAE 55), you wont need to heat the ambient air as high
- All heat floor with a independent thermostat = zoning.
- Where you cant use heating floor, I use convector systems. Well , they are like baseboard , so about same efficiency, but move the air a little bit faster with natural convection.

With all this, I have a 1400 ft2 bungalow from 1959, montreal , 22°C occupied, 20.5° not occupied, everything on smart , even the air ex-hanger, and able to get 2000$ bill / year. No gas, garage is heated, pool too, and we are 4 in the house.

Now the number, pay back might be far away with a water system. But one thing you need to see, if the value of the system. I swear, people are ready to pay more for great systems in nordic countries. Also electric floor are cheap, at least for me , since I have contact. This is a simple system, and people should'nt pay prime prices of the contractors

[cmyx6go]

I HATE forced hot air heat. In addition to the dust issues mentioned, it is hard to regulate. It's hot when it's blowing, but dissipates quickly. It also dries everything out, even with a humidifier -your skin, your eyes, your furniture. Central air with baseboard is the best in my opinion. I currently have 2 zone heat but only one for the AC. Another option to add is radiant heat under tiles (hot water, not electric). My previous house had radiant in all the bathrooms and the kitchen

[tranquility]

OT, but when is one supposed to use the air exchanger? Is it only during wintertime? Also, when going to the bathroom? This thing is so alien to me haha.

[oVeRdOsE.]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

I HATE forced hot air heat. In addition to the dust issues mentioned, it is hard to regulate. It's hot when it's blowing, but dissipates quickly. It also dries everything out, even with a humidifier -your skin, your eyes, your furniture. Central air with baseboard is the best in my opinion. I currently have 2 zone heat but only one for the AC. Another option to add is radiant heat under tiles (hot water, not electric). My previous house had radiant in all the bathrooms and the kitchen

if you have issue with humidity, then something not right.
If your air too dry on winter, this is because you loosing it !

Normal houses will generate too much humidity on normal time ( plants, dishwasher , shower, washing).

So on a sealed house, you will be always high, and the air exchanger job is to open the damper on the %HR set point.

Then with the psychometric chart rules, your %HR will reduce, and on the set point, dampers are closing and only circulate air in the house.

I never used humidifier on winter, even those days where it fluctuate around -24° and -10°C since 3-4 weeks.

My bathrooms are plugged on the air exhanger.



OP, air exchanger should run ALL year long ! Some time they will exchange some time only re-circulate, depending of the model, but most of them are %HR driven.
The moment you have your house closed (heating or cooling) you need a ACH (air change per hour).

I don't know why some contractor still saying to turn it off on summer... Yes turn it off on summer if you have no A/C and your windows opens, but not if the house is sealed.

[tranquility]

I'm curious about everyone talking about floor heating...do you guys walk around barefoot? I only use slippers so don't think it's useful for me unless you're talking about the floor heating somehow dissipating and it could heat up the whole room? Not sure how it works.

[oVeRdOsE.]

Originally Posted by tranquility

I'm curious about everyone talking about floor heating...do you guys walk around barefoot? I only use slippers so don't think it's useful for me unless you're talking about the floor heating somehow dissipating and it could heat up the whole room? Not sure how it works.

they are not that hot, keeping mine around 25-26°C, and air get heated mostly by radiation, a little % by convection. Your body get heated by radiation too.

The moment you get on the floor you can feel it. Having no air movement will help with air stratification and keep the warm air at men level.

So most people think hot air go up, which is true, but few inches near your attic ceiling, air is colder and more dense, that stay there pushed but warm air bellow (= stratification). This is why I said forced air system will remove air stratification, so heating this thin cold air is not efficient


Technically, you can put heating floor under wood floor, since radiation will work, but there's a whole other problem with wood movement that can destroy your floor . Saw few people with Teck heating floor, no issue, but tiles , concrete, carpet remain a better choice.

yes it can heat a room, calculate you kW / sqft and voilà

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by oVeRdOsE.

they are not that hot, keeping mine around 25-26°C, and air get heated mostly by radiation, a little % by convection. Your body get heated by radiation too.

The moment you get on the floor you can feel it. Having no air movement will help with air stratification and keep the warm air at men level.

So most people think hot air go up, which is true, but few inches near your attic ceiling, air is colder and more dense, that stay there pushed but warm air bellow (= stratification). This is why I said forced air system will remove air stratification, so heating this thin cold air is not efficient


Technically, you can put heating floor under wood floor, since radiation will work, but there's a whole other problem with wood movement that can destroy your floor . Saw few people with Teck heating floor, no issue, but tiles , concrete, carpet remain a better choice.

To me, this is advanced stuff. I've only seen heated floors for some bathrooms for condos I've been looking at, but the rest of the apartment is either heated w baseboards or forced air.

[nyalpine90]

Originally Posted by tranquility

You're way off somewhere smoking something....I'm just asking is what's the best system, nothing to do w renos or anything pre-existing. Jeez, pay attn.

i wish i was smoking something good but im not.

[oVeRdOsE.]

Originally Posted by tranquility

To me, this is advanced stuff. I've only seen heated floors for some bathrooms for condos I've been looking at, but the rest of the apartment is either heated w baseboards or forced air.

yeah, I mean its cheap and all contractor can buy/install it.

In the 70's many nice house in quebec got radiant ceiling ! This tech is old and works.

But since we dont care about quality here, do not wonder why we have shitty cheap houses, anyway, people are looking more into colors, tv placement and vinyl exterior facing than real stuff that cost a lot like : structure, roofing, electricity, heating, etc.

We got a construction company, and we do flip, we do not put those fancy system, but our houses are fully radiant, natural convention stacks and build in concrete, yes , exterior wall are in concrete for thermal inertia. (we used polycrete brand)

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by oVeRdOsE.

yeah, I mean its cheap and all contractor can buy/install it.

In the 70's many nice house in quebec got radiant ceiling ! This tech is old and works.

But since we dont care about quality here, do not wonder why we have shitty cheap houses, anyway, people are looking more into colors, tv placement and vinyl exterior facing than real stuff that cost a lot like : structure, roofing, electricity, heating, etc.

We got a construction company, and we do flip, we do not put those fancy system, but our houses are fully radiant, natural convention stacks and build in concrete, yes , exterior wall are in concrete for thermal inertia. (we used polycrete brand)

Ok, I'm confused because I assume baseboards and even radiant heating are older tech, yet they insist on forced air now even though they are less efficient...so it's because it's cheaper to build, that's the only reason?

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by tranquility

Cost not being an issue, (and if it matters, a condo instead of house) what is the best heating system? A/C is always set up near the ceiling because cold air falls so that's optimized and to my basic layman knowledge, they're either via the forced air duct or separate in-wall units and I don't really have a preference there.

I notice many luxury units use forced air for heating but I really don't like it for several reasons: the ducts are high, so it's inefficient as the air has to force its way down and it's noisy and causes dust to fly around. Conversely, I really like baseboards as they are usually strategically-placed right underneath windows to cut off any drafts and they are silent.

I'm not familiar w other heating systems or if they are even popular anymore in the N Amer mkt for new condos.

Anyway, that's my 2Cs, more informed opinions are welcome.

Hydronic radiant floor heating if you can do it. Family condo in CO uses it, it's awesome.

[vreihen16]

I installed a ducted "ductless" heat pump in our small 2 BR house a few years ago. All ducts come up through the floor, with a single return grate in the center of the house. The air handler was not designed to generate high pressure, and I had to go with metal ducts because flex duct has too much resistance. Long story short, the system is dead quiet, you can barely feel the air moving even with a hand over the vent, and there's no dryness or dampness in either heat or cool mode.

The only pitfall is that the outdoor unit is rated for -4 F in heat mode, but in reality the system starts to struggle to hold 70 F inside when it falls below 15 F outside.

An interesting alternative came up in my searches for an alternative baseboard hot water boiler last month. Some people are using on-demand gas hot water heaters with circulator pumps to run radiant floor heaters with PEX tubing loops embedded in their concrete slab floors. Half the price of a traditional boiler.....

[dreamingat30fps]

Related question. Obviously we never use heat in FL although my AC unit can put out heat so not really sure what is best. In NC the house will heat through the AC system, using a heat pump I think as I see some module on the unit. However it can also go into AUX heating mode which seems to run the furnace on propane. We have a like 350 gallon propane tank and we have barely used any of it so far.

My question is it better to run the heat on the heat pump or on the AUX propane setting? I'm guessing the thermostat automatically turns on the AUX when the standard heat pump isn't cutting it but not sure. Just wondering what is cheaper to run or better. So far we have never run the propane furnace other than to test it.

[Bc2005]

My house has 1940 vintage iron radiators and a 2013 gas boiler, and it is the most comfortable, even heat I’ve ever had in a house. It is much more comfortable than the forced air heat I’ve had in other homes. However, I do have a lot of piping running to the radiators (all updated to PEX), so it’s potentially more complicated to maintain than the ducts on a forced air system.

Many high end modern homes and commercial buildings install hydronic heat (usually PEX) in the slab or under a wood floor. For best performance you need to build it into the home design, using good insulation under the slab and piping, because you want all heat to go up, not down into ground.

We also updated the attic insulation with spray foam in the underside of the roof deck, so our attic is “conditioned” air. It’s currently about 25 degrees outside, and the attic temp (with no radiators) is only a few degrees cooler than the house temp.

Our A/C unit and ducting is in the attic, so we have paid for a separate system. However, since cold air naturally drops, it works well for summer cooling.

[2000cs]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

Related question. Obviously we never use heat in FL although my AC unit can put out heat so not really sure what is best. In NC the house will heat through the AC system, using a heat pump I think as I see some module on the unit. However it can also go into AUX heating mode which seems to run the furnace on propane. We have a like 350 gallon propane tank and we have barely used any of it so far.

My question is it better to run the heat on the heat pump or on the AUX propane setting? I'm guessing the thermostat automatically turns on the AUX when the standard heat pump isn't cutting it but not sure. Just wondering what is cheaper to run or better. So far we have never run the propane furnace other than to test it.

Try Aux once and you’ll never use it again. VERY expensive. It is often strip heat (electric resistance heat) in an electric heat pump setup. Best to warm a cold house slowly (2-3 deg at at time) to avoid having the strip heat come on.

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

My question is it better to run the heat on the heat pump or on the AUX propane setting? I'm guessing the thermostat automatically turns on the AUX when the standard heat pump isn't cutting it but not sure. Just wondering what is cheaper to run or better. So far we have never run the propane furnace other than to test it.

We have our air-air heat pump, and a separate baseboard hot water system with an oil-fired boiler.

As the outside temperature gets colder, the air-air heat pump has to run harder/longer to extract heat from the cold outside air. Obviously, its efficiency goes down. Ours is rated to function down to -4F, but in reality is running full-throttle when it drops below 15F.

There is a sweet spot temperature where changing over from the heat pump to oil boiler is cheaper. You will have to find it by gathering data from your installation. Ours seems to be around 22F, but I prefer to run the oil boiler below 28F just to save the abuse from running the heat pump too hard. Save that wear and tear for the summer cooling season!

By running the heat pump in the spring/fall, our oil use has dropped 35% per year. Not like our small 2BR house uses much oil anyway. My diesel pickup actually burns more fuel per day on a 22 mile commute in the winter.....