[JK479]

Hi,

Anyone care to chime in if their dual clutch lag for accelerating has improved with miles on the odo?

Curious if things are smoother?

[FlashMonkey929]

Originally Posted by JK479

Hi,

Anyone care to chime in if their dual clutch lag for accelerating has improved with miles on the odo?

Curious if things are smoother?

I noticed mine improved enough to notice after I took my car in to the dealer for the airbag recall, but it's still there. It's not as bad as before, on takeoffs when trying to merge into traffic quickly from a complete stop it's still like the pedal is dead for a second before it goes. Not all the time, but just enough to make it unpredictable.

[Duncs1961]

7,450 miles on mine and still just as bad as day one and unpredictable too (2.0 Sport).

[tex2670]

I wouldn't say that it's improved; but my driving style has adapted better to keep it from intruding.

[Kromans1]

I found it to be marginally better once I hit 2,500. Still wicked annoying though. If I know I'm going into a left turn where traffic usually has to stop to let me in, I'll put it in sport mode ahead of time to counter the lag.

Seems that shouldn't have to be that way with a BMW, but here we are.

[AmisWill]

Originally Posted by Kromans1

I found it to be marginally better once I hit 2,500. Still wicked annoying though. If I know I'm going into a left turn where traffic usually has to stop to let me in, I'll put it in sport mode ahead of time to counter the lag.

Seems that shouldn't have to be that way with a BMW, but here we are.

Is this with auto start/stop on when not in sport mode or are you turning it off all the time? Still waiting for mine but have seen so many complaints about this lag that it concerns me (safety wise).

[Kromans1]

Originally Posted by AmisWill

Is this with auto start/stop on when not in sport mode or are you turning it off all the time? Still waiting for mine but have seen so many complaints about this lag that it concerns me (safety wise).

I've never turned off the Auto start/stop. I always have the Auto H engaged though, and I feel that helps too, to have my foot off the brake before hitting the gas when I need to punch it.

[AmisWill]

Originally Posted by Kromans1

I've never turned off the Auto start/stop. I always have the Auto H engaged though, and I feel that helps too, to have my foot off the brake before hitting the gas when I need to punch it.

Got it thanks. I’ve seen some suggest creating a link in the menu to turn off the auto start/stop every time you drive, without having to navigate through the menu. Having if off seems to help reduce the lag from a full stop. I understand sport mode automatically turns it off too.

[SpaceSilverX1]

Originally Posted by AmisWill

Got it thanks. I’ve seen some suggest creating a link in the menu to turn off the auto start/stop every time you drive, without having to navigate through the menu. Having if off seems to help reduce the lag from a full stop. I understand sport mode automatically turns it off too.

since I got my X1 3 months ago, the first thing that I do after starting the engine is to say "Hello BMW, activate sport mode" I say it as I'm putting on my seatbelt.

[Bogdan_CH]

Haha, that's funny but people need to calm down and realize that's how DCT gearboxes work. I have another car for 4 years with double clutch and just got used to how it works. You just have to react a bit different from a stop and it's decent.

[JK479]

Originally Posted by Bogdan_CH

Haha, that's funny but people need to calm down and realize that's how DCT gearboxes work. I have another car for 4 years with double clutch and just got used to how it works. You just have to react a bit different from a stop and it's decent.

Perhaps if time allows- can you explain how you have compensated for it? It’s the only reason I never pulled the trigger on an otherwise great car.

I had an x1 loaner and couldn’t figure out how to reduce any of the lag. This x1 had 3000 miles on it so I assume broken in?

[FlashMonkey929]

Originally Posted by Bogdan_CH

Haha, that's funny but people need to calm down and realize that's how DCT gearboxes work. I have another car for 4 years with double clutch and just got used to how it works. You just have to react a bit different from a stop and it's decent.

It’s not the transmission itself, it’s the programming for the throttle that’s causing the lag. Put it in sport mode and the lag disappears.

[FlashMonkey929]

Originally Posted by AmisWill

Is this with auto start/stop on when not in sport mode or are you turning it off all the time? Still waiting for mine but have seen so many complaints about this lag that it concerns me (safety wise).

My experience with the lag and auto start/stop has been an ongoing journey. Let me first describe what I experience: When taking off from a stop (with auto/start stop on), as soon as you lift your foot off the brake pedal the engine starts, no issues there. It's when you put your foot on the gas pedal immediately afterwards that the lag appears. If you're going for a slow roll it's hardly noticeable, but when you need to do sharp acceleration it stumbles and the pedal goes dead for a second before sharply accelerating afterwards. Sometimes when I am coming to a stop, but not stopped completely (rolling at 2-3mph) the auto start/stop will prematurely kick in and shut the motor off. Completely fine if you're coming to a full stop, but if you're in a merge at a yield, or roundabout or whatever and need to slide into a gap in traffic, then that's when the lag gets bad. When I first took delivery of the X1, I assumed it was the auto start/stop that was causing the lag. But even with it disabled, the lag would still happen if I needed to accelerate at a more brisk pace than normal stop and go traffic. So logically, it can't be the auto start/stop as the main source of the lag. Shifting the gear selector down one more time while in D puts it in L (or S if you have an M-Sport). This disables Auto Start/Stop, but it also changes the throttle profile leading to increased response and more forceful acceleration and holding gears longer. The lag is gone in this instance, as well as actually switching to the full sport mode in the infotainment. In these two modes, the lag is gone, the throttle is snappy, and the transmission works beautifully. The downside to that is the motor burns more fuel, holds gears longer, and behaves more aggressively.

HOWEVER, since servicing my car for the airbag recall at the dealership, I've noticed that the lag is diminished a little, but still not gone. I'm not sure what they did, as the idrive software is the same and no notes were on my invoice detailing any changes they made. But it's definitely a bit better than before.

[AmisWill]

Originally Posted by FlashMonkey929

My experience with the lag and auto start/stop has been an ongoing journey. Let me first describe what I experience: When taking off from a stop (with auto/start stop on), as soon as you lift your foot off the brake pedal the engine starts, no issues there. It's when you put your foot on the gas pedal immediately afterwards that the lag appears. If you're going for a slow roll it's hardly noticeable, but when you need to do sharp acceleration it stumbles and the pedal goes dead for a second before sharply accelerating afterwards. Sometimes when I am coming to a stop, but not stopped completely (rolling at 2-3mph) the auto start/stop will prematurely kick in and shut the motor off. Completely fine if you're coming to a full stop, but if you're in a merge at a yield, or roundabout or whatever and need to slide into a gap in traffic, then that's when the lag gets bad. When I first took delivery of the X1, I assumed it was the auto start/stop that was causing the lag. But even with it disabled, the lag would still happen if I needed to accelerate at a more brisk pace than normal stop and go traffic. So logically, it can't be the auto start/stop as the main source of the lag. Shifting the gear selector down one more time while in D puts it in L (or S if you have an M-Sport). This disables Auto Start/Stop, but it also changes the throttle profile leading to increased response and more forceful acceleration and holding gears longer. The lag is gone in this instance, as well as actually switching to the full sport mode in the infotainment. In these two modes, the [...]

Thanks for the detailed description of your experience. I didn’t know that using L will actually disable the auto start/stop. Overall, I guess we’ll have to see how well we can adjust our driving to this behavior. I’ll try all these to see what fits me best without significantly interfering with my existing driving habits. When it comes to priorities I’m less concerned with efficiency and more with a predictable response e.g. when I’m hitting the gas from a stop I’m expecting it to take off within a second 😁

[Bogdan_CH]

The hole thing is related to the gearbox and much less to the start stop function as this basically just adds delay. DCT gearboxes are basically automated manual transmission, there is a physical engagement of a clutch at gear changes and what most important here when going at a stop, going out of gear. When you stop, start, stop at low speed the gearbox gets a bit confused as it doesn't know whether it should be so this hesitations produces the lag. That's why be it in sport mode just reduces these times and what happens here as well for short time it still holds the clutch in gear and the breaks holds the car from not rolling. For short amounts this shouldn't be an issue but doing it all the time just puts an extra wear on the breaks / clutch plates etc. Not sure how much, but it's there. Some would say software wise they should make this happen faster, while the gearbox is quite fast at engaging, you would play basically catchup between input and output and in the end just jump what the gearbox is doing and become really jerky.

But just to overcome this, I got used to it, trying to understand what is happening so at a light, in a roundabout just try to anticipate for a fraction of a second and press slightly the throttle. By the time you wanna go, the car is in gear, and no lag will happen.

This is my experience with a 5yr old Mercedes, but from my quick test drive with a sDrive X1 18d ( basically the same tech as you get in the states, without mild hybrid) wasn't that much of an issue, as I said, I got used to it and that's why. Eveny though it didn't bother me, I ordered a PHEV as the EV doesn't have this issues at all, it's instant and while driving it's not noticeable anymore. However, in Sport when both engines are pulling, if you kick it, you can notice the electrical engine pulling instantly and the gearbox catching up in a matter of seconds, as there is a mechanical connection there that needs to engage

[FlashMonkey929]

Originally Posted by Bogdan_CH

The hole thing is related to the gearbox and much less to the start stop function as this basically just adds delay. DCT gearboxes are basically automated manual transmission, there is a physical engagement of a clutch at gear changes and what most important here when going at a stop, going out of gear. When you stop, start, stop at low speed the gearbox gets a bit confused as it doesn't know whether it should be so this hesitations produces the lag. That's why be it in sport mode just reduces these times and what happens here as well for short time it still holds the clutch in gear and the breaks holds the car from not rolling. For short amounts this shouldn't be an issue but doing it all the time just puts an extra wear on the breaks / clutch plates etc. Not sure how much, but it's there. Some would say software wise they should make this happen faster, while the gearbox is quite fast at engaging, you would play basically catchup between input and output and in the end just jump what the gearbox is doing and become really jerky.

But just to overcome this, I got used to it, trying to understand what is happening so at a light, in a roundabout just try to anticipate for a fraction of a second and press slightly the throttle. By the time you wanna go, the car is in gear, and no lag will happen.

This is my experience with a 5yr old Mercedes, but from my quick test drive with a sDrive X1 18d ( basically the same tech as you get in the states, without mild hybrid) wasn't that much of an issue, as I said, I got used to it and that's why. Eveny though it didn't [...]

That may hold true for you and what you say makes logical sense, except in my experience it is 100% the throttle mapping that’s causing the delay. If it were just the clutch engagement causing the delay, pressing the gas pedal would still rev the engine. What I experience when this happens is pressing the gas pedal has no effect on engine speed, it is still idling until it decides it isn’t. If it were the clutch not engaging quickly enough the engine speed would still increase relative to how much you push the gas pedal, like in a manual car. It is literally like the car is off when you push the pedal for that short time until it jerks to life.

[allinon72]

Originally Posted by Bogdan_CH

The hole thing is related to the gearbox and much less to the start stop function as this basically just adds delay. DCT gearboxes are basically automated manual transmission, there is a physical engagement of a clutch at gear changes and what most important here when going at a stop, going out of gear. When you stop, start, stop at low speed the gearbox gets a bit confused as it doesn't know whether it should be so this hesitations produces the lag. That's why be it in sport mode just reduces these times and what happens here as well for short time it still holds the clutch in gear and the breaks holds the car from not rolling. For short amounts this shouldn't be an issue but doing it all the time just puts an extra wear on the breaks / clutch plates etc. Not sure how much, but it's there. Some would say software wise they should make this happen faster, while the gearbox is quite fast at engaging, you would play basically catchup between input and output and in the end just jump what the gearbox is doing and become really jerky.

But just to overcome this, I got used to it, trying to understand what is happening so at a light, in a roundabout just try to anticipate for a fraction of a second and press slightly the throttle. By the time you wanna go, the car is in gear, and no lag will happen.

This is my experience with a 5yr old Mercedes, but from my quick test drive with a sDrive X1 18d ( basically the same tech as you get in the states, without mild hybrid) wasn't that much of an issue, as I said, I got used to it and that's why. Eveny though it didn't [...]

This is my 7th BMW and 3rd DCT. This is not a mechanical engagement issue with the transmission. Good thought but that’s just a misdiagnosis. The issue could be fixed overnight with a OTA software update, if BMW chose.

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by FlashMonkey929

That may hold true for you and what you say makes logical sense, except in my experience it is 100% the throttle mapping that’s causing the delay. If it were just the clutch engagement causing the delay, pressing the gas pedal would still rev the engine. What I experience when this happens is pressing the gas pedal has no effect on engine speed, it is still idling until it decides it isn’t. If it were the clutch not engaging quickly enough the engine speed would still increase relative to how much you push the gas pedal, like in a manual car. It is literally like the car is off when you push the pedal for that short time until it jerks to life.

The computers controlling the exchange of power and engagement of the clutch stop the power rising until the clutch is engaged, sometimes that is quick sometimes slow thus the uncertainty of engagement. Some manufactures do it differently, I had an Audi DCT or S-Tronic as they called it but they are both the same thing.

I’d often have to take the foot off the brake and you could feel the clutch engage to anticipate the need to accelerate when the lights changes. However somethings they might change and the need to move quickly made for a hard and what felt like sometimes violent engagement of the clutch. You would prod the throttle and the clutch in the gearbox would engage with an uncomfortable jolt and then quick progress. BMW has chosen not to have that jolt which causes the delay in nothingness until the clutch engages.

It doesn’t help the driving experience at all but many DCT suffer from the same issues to one degree or another. The US engine / drivetrain seems to exacerbate this issue. Maybe they spent more time optimising the EU starter / engine combos it seems only the engineers will know.

[FlashMonkey929]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

The computers controlling the exchange of power and engagement of the clutch stop the power rising until the clutch is engaged, sometimes that is quick sometimes slow thus the uncertainty of engagement. Some manufactures do it differently, I had an Audi DCT or S-Tronic as they called it but they are both the same thing.

I’d often have to take the foot off the brake and you could feel the clutch engage to anticipate the need to accelerate when the lights changes. However somethings they might change and the need to move quickly made for a hard and what felt like sometimes violent engagement of the clutch. You would prod the throttle and the clutch in the gearbox would engage with an uncomfortable jolt and then quick progress. BMW has chosen not to have that jolt which causes the delay in nothingness until the clutch engages.

It doesn’t help the driving experience at all but many DCT suffer from the same issues to one degree or another. The US engine / drivetrain seems to exacerbate this issue. Maybe they spent more time optimising the EU starter / engine combos it seems only the engineers will know.

That makes a bit more sense, but still comes down to a programming issue. It would be interesting to see the throttle/DCT programming between the different drivetrains and see if it’s the same and the US is just missing the electric assistance thus the gap in acceleration. If BMW offered the X1 in a manual gearbox I absolutely would have got that. I miss driving stick so much I’m actually looking at purchasing an e46 ZHP soon once I can clear the project GTI out of my other stall.

[JK479]

Originally Posted by allinon72

This is my 7th BMW and 3rd DCT. This is not a mechanical engagement issue with the transmission. Good thought but that’s just a misdiagnosis. The issue could be fixed overnight with a OTA software update, if BMW chose.

That’s good info

[JK479]

Originally Posted by FlashMonkey929

That may hold true for you and what you say makes logical sense, except in my experience it is 100% the throttle mapping that’s causing the delay. If it were just the clutch engagement causing the delay, pressing the gas pedal would still rev the engine. What I experience when this happens is pressing the gas pedal has no effect on engine speed, it is still idling until it decides it isn’t. If it were the clutch not engaging quickly enough the engine speed would still increase relative to how much you push the gas pedal, like in a manual car. It is literally like the car is off when you push the pedal for that short time until it jerks to life.

If enough owners get together and pursue with BMW NA- would there be a chance a recall or service appointment could reprogram the throttle mapping computer?

I’m curious if it’s just planned for the next model
Year.

Would you buy the x1 now knowing it’s doing this?

In other words to the group; knowing what you know now- would you skip x1 and go to x3? I love driving and my test drives all have been with lag.

X3 zf seems so much better- but then the x3 is an old design. I like the x1 layout and size . And value prop. So much for 40,000 really. A 30i x3 is around 54,000. Maybe if it bothers me this much- I should go old school x3

[Bogdan_CH]

Originally Posted by MAPMAN48

I have asked this before but never got an answer. Need somebody to take a photo underneath a PHEV.
The phev is not really an 4 x 4 it is a FWD when using the ICE and a RWD when using electric and a sort of 4x4 when using both. The MHT still only has one power unit assisted by an electric motor.
Don't know how they sync the drive between the front and back like they do on a proper X-Drive with a prop-shaft. On proper 4x4's with a single power unit they have a Fluid Clutch or a Diff between the front and back to balance the load.
They can't work independently else you would get "wind up" with them working against each other which would destroy the Drivetrain. The UK Army used have APC's called the Stalwart,(https://www.hkfw.at/en/our-vehicles/...mk-ii-stalwart) with independently driven axles and no Diff or load balancing between them and this used to happen when they were driven fast on a winding flat road, which they weren't designed for (the soldiers were probably going down to the pub)

Wait a sec here. You got me wrong, by engaging something I was reffering solely to the gearbox not between two engines. They are not connected, so all the sync is done electronically by sensors just that a ICE engine cannot be instant like an electrical one. The ICE has to pick up revs, right gear, engage etc which is really fast but you notice the small lag just when you floor it. It's not in bad way, not affecting how it goes under kickdown or boost but still noticeable if you want to feel it.

Originally Posted by FlashMonkey929

That may hold true for you and what you say makes logical sense, except in my experience it is 100% the throttle mapping that’s causing the delay. If it were just the clutch engagement causing the delay, pressing the gas pedal would still rev the engine. What I experience when this happens is pressing the gas pedal has no effect on engine speed, it is still idling until it decides it isn’t. If it were the clutch not engaging quickly enough the engine speed would still increase relative to how much you push the gas pedal, like in a manual car. It is literally like the car is off when you push the pedal for that short time until it jerks to life.

Cars for a while now use Drive by Wire, so even if the engine could rev up faster it would not allow to go there until the gear is engaged otherwise you would feel jerky . The reaction time drops with sport mode but not sure if keeping it like that solves the problem.