[Llarry]

The only surviving early B-17, a B-17D model named the Swoose, is currently under restoration by the National Museum of the U.S. Air Force. This aircraft was present in the Philippines when the Japanese attacked in December of 1941 and somehow survived the early battles. Not long afterwards, it was selected as a VIP transport for the general commanding the Far East Air Force.

This early model did not have the tail guns of the B-17E and later variants.

The restoration is estimated to take years.

[Lady Jane]

Originally Posted by Llarry

The only surviving early B-17, a B-17D model named the Swoose,

A little bit more interesting info on this particular bird:


https://www.jetsprops.com/bombers/th...-fortress.html

[Llarry]

And -- just as a reminder of how much the B-17 changed over time -- here is a late World War II B-17G. Tail guns, chin turret, ball turret on the belly, etc. The waist guns appear to be stowed away.

The American concept of daylight bombing included carefully arranged formations to maximize field of fire from all those massed .50 machine guns. We tend to think of the terrible price that the bomber crews paid but the Luftwaffe fighters surely had to be quite brave to attack B-17 formations and took terrible losses as well.

[Llarry]

A-10C of the Michigan Air National Guard in a snowstorm.

[Llarry]

Two photos, taken a decade apart, probably in the same hangar at Moffett Field, Sunnyvale, California.

[M-technik-3]

Having been to the top of one of those hangers I will tell you one thing it's not for faint of heart or those fearful of heights on wooden stairs that are open and exposed. Made me nervous and I am not afraid of heights it was the fact it was so rickety.

Don't believe you can go up there anymore.

[Llarry]

Late in World War II the P-38 Lightning was adapted for the night fighter role with a radar operator squeezed in behind the pilot. 75 P-38Ls were modified to this P-38M standard, first flying in January 1945. But testing and training took up too much time and the P-38M never saw combat. A few were briefly stationed in Atsugi, Japan, during the occupation in 1946.

The projections below the wing are "trees" for launching rockets.

[vreihen16]

If a Cessna and a Mooney had a love child:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aero_Commander_100




.

[vreihen16]

Interesting article about the Air Force's "Rapid Dragon" initiative to use large cargo planes as attack platforms by using palletized weapons:

https://www.businessinsider.com/soco...-weapon-2024-3

Sort of makes sense when the C-17 can carry three times as many long-range precision munitions (such as cruise missiles) as a B-52 bomber.....

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

Interesting article about the Air Force's "Rapid Dragon" initiative to use large cargo planes as attack platforms by using palletized weapons:
//snip//
Sort of makes sense when the C-17 can carry three times as many long-range precision munitions (such as cruise missiles) as a B-52 bomber.....

And in a permissive environment with few air defenses, you can just imagine a C-5/C-17/C-130/C-whatever loitering above the area of interest for hours and hours!

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by Llarry

And in a permissive environment with few air defenses, you can just imagine a C-5/C-17/C-130/C-whatever loitering above the area of interest for hours and hours!

...and yet not move one foot the whole time. I swear that the C-5 can almost hover in slow-speed flight, casting an ominous shadow on those below it.....

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by M-technik-3

Having been to the top of one of those hangers I will tell you one thing it's not for faint of heart or those fearful of heights on wooden stairs that are open and exposed. Made me nervous and I am not afraid of heights it was the fact it was so rickety.

Don't believe you can go up there anymore.

There's one in Tillamook, Oregon, that I've been in and I was nervous just being inside the 80 year old structure -- If some 8-inch x 8-inch x 12 foot timber falls from 100 feet above, it could ruin your whole day!

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

Interesting article about the Air Force's "Rapid Dragon" initiative to use large cargo planes as attack platforms by using palletized weapons:

https://www.businessinsider.com/soco...-weapon-2024-3

Sort of makes sense when the C-17 can carry three times as many long-range precision munitions (such as cruise missiles) as a B-52 bomber.....

This has been done before.... sort of.

In 1974, the USAF air-launched a full-on ICBM out of the back of a C-5.

That particular C-5 (an A-Model) is on display at the aviation museum at Dover AFB, DE.

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

...and yet not move one foot the whole time. I swear that the C-5 can almost hover in slow-speed flight, casting an ominous shadow on those below it.....

It's the leading-edge slats that do that.

I've seen approach speeds in the 110-115 knot range (assuming no cargo, very little gas and full-flaps) and takeoff speeds around 90 knots (again, super light).

It's unusual, but it happens.

R.

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by Llarry

And in a permissive environment with few air defenses, you can just imagine a C-5/C-17/C-130/C-whatever loitering above the area of interest for hours and hours!

Loitering in the FEBA (Forward Edge of Battle Area) is a **BAD** idea for heavy airlifters.

There's no such thing as a "permissive environment with few air defenses" (other than perhaps, Oklahoma ).

Freddie has ZERO RAW (Radar Active Warning) gear and only an optical system that can (occasionally) detect the solid booster stage of a surface to air missile. IF (and that's a REALLY BIG IF) the sensors see the missile boost phase (which is only a few seconds), the system can automatically fire off flares..... which are only effective against the "stupid" missiles (think: SA-7).

Loitering for hours on end (and sure, you could stay there for 16ish hours) is just BEGGING any Bad Guy to take a shot at you-- and you'd be a big fat wallowing pig at low airspeed (~210 kts) to conserve fuel, so you'd most likely be dead with a single hit (Remember: Energy (i.e. Speed) is Life).

It's not practicable. Show me a battlefield that has 100% SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses), 100% destruction of the enemy IADS (Integrated Air Defense System), and a *guarantee* that there's not a bubba with a MANPAD (Man Portable Air Defense System- think: SA-7/14/29/etc) hanging out below you waiting to ruin your day and I'll show you a sparkly unicorn that grants you free drinks for life at the bar.

R.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by flybigjet

Loitering in the FEBA (Forward Edge of Battle Area) is a **BAD** idea for heavy airlifters.

There's no such thing as a "permissive environment with few air defenses" (other than perhaps, Oklahoma ).

My thought was something along the lines of Afghanistan or Africa Command or Southern Command.

[M-technik-3]

Originally Posted by flybigjet

This has been done before.... sort of.

In 1974, the USAF air-launched a full-on ICBM out of the back of a C-5.

That particular C-5 (an A-Model) is on display at the aviation museum at Dover AFB, DE.

It scared the Russians. It really got the START treaty's started.

[Llarry]

The very first Messerschmitt Bf 109 1935-1936.. The German engines were not ready and so they adapted a Rolls-Royce V-12 for the first trials. Operational Bf 109s would have inverted V-12s with very different nose contours.

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by Llarry

My thought was something along the lines of Afghanistan or Africa Command or Southern Command.

The problem is sort of circular. Any Bad Guys that are bad enough that you want to use that amount of firepower on will have the capability and incentive/dedication to reach out and touch you.

During Gulf War II, I'm frankly *boggled* that we didn't have a hull loss. We had one C-5 take a missile strike into the #3 (iirc) engine in Iraq, but we got supremely lucky in Afghanistan.

If I was a Bad Guy? I would set up a SAM-bush in one of two ways:

1. Put Bad Guy #1 in a location where you *know* the jets are going to fly over (Departure path from the runway, for example). As soon as the pilot/crew sees the shot, the aircraft is going to break away from the threat (and pop flares) to get out of the shooter's WEZ (Weapons Engagement Zone).

And that's where Bad Guy's #2 and #3 comes in. You put them where you expect the aircraft to turn in order to avoid the threat from Bad Guy #1. Then you pickle off multi-axis MANPAD's and Bob's your Uncle.

Or even better-- Operate on the assumption that Bad Guy #1 gets a hit on the jet but doesn't kill it (most transports have four engines-- so if you only take out an engine, it's survivable). What's the crew going to if an engine blows off the wing? Do an emergency return *to the departure airfield* (I taught that I would never, ever RTB for this exact reason. If I could get the fire out, I was going somewhere, ANYwhere but where I just came from for this exact reason). So now the jet is low, slow, configured and thrust limited. And ***that's*** when Bad Guy #2 (who was positioned along Final) takes his shot.

Or-- you think the Bad Guys can't figure out how to get a MANPAD up on the side of a mountain somewhere? The mountain ranges in Afghanistan are over 25,000'-- And let's say you're orbiting at FL300-- nice and slow due to altitude and long-range cruise to conserve fuel. And Bad Guy #1 (he gets around, doesn't he?) is sitting on the side of the mountain at 23,000' and just watching you make orbits in the sky. The Bad Guys are patient and have got all freaking day to take a shot at you-- and his engagement envelope is only at 7,000' as far as he's concerned, despite the jet being at FL300.

These are just a few examples in a (supposedly) secured area where we had air supremacy. All it would take would be a half-dozen guys, a few MANPADS (and you can almost buy them on eBay-- they're all over the place), and they can give you a Bad Day.

And now, I'm going to have the jet loaded to the gills with munitions?

Interesting idea, but limited feasibility.

R.

[M-technik-3]

Originally Posted by flybigjet

The problem is sort of circular. Any Bad Guys that are bad enough that you want to use that amount of firepower on will have the capability and incentive/dedication to reach out and touch you.

During Gulf War II, I'm frankly *boggled* that we didn't have a hull loss. We had one C-5 take a missile strike into the #3 (iirc) engine in Iraq, but we got supremely lucky in Afghanistan.

If I was a Bad Guy? I would set up a SAM-bush in one of two ways:

1. Put Bad Guy #1 in a location where you *know* the jets are going to fly over (Departure path from the runway, for example). As soon as the pilot/crew sees the shot, the aircraft is going to break away from the threat (and pop flares) to get out of the shooter's WEZ (Weapons Engagement Zone).

And that's where Bad Guy's #2 and #3 comes in. You put them where you expect the aircraft to turn in order to avoid the threat from Bad Guy #1. Then you pickle off multi-axis MANPAD's and Bob's your Uncle.

Or even better-- Operate on the assumption that Bad Guy #1 gets a hit on the jet but doesn't kill it (most transports have four engines-- so if you only take out an engine, it's survivable). What's the crew going to if an engine blows off the wing? Do an emergency return *to the departure airfield* (I taught that I would never, ever RTB for this exact reason. If I could get the fire out, I was going somewhere, ANYwhere but where I just came from for this exact reason). So now the jet is low, slow, configured and thrust limited. And ***that's*** when Bad Guy #2 (who was positioned along Final) takes his shot.

Or-- you think the Bad Guys can't figure out how to get a MANPAD up on the side of a mountain somewhere? The mountain ranges in Afghanistan are over 25,000'-- And let's say you're orbiting at FL300-- nice and slow due to altitude and long-range cruise to conserve fuel. And Bad Guy #1 (he gets around, doesn't he?) is sitting on the side of the mountain at 23,000' and just watching you make orbits in the sky. The Bad Guys are patient and have got all freaking day to take a shot at you-- and his engagement envelope is only at 7,000' as far as he's concerned, despite the jet being at FL300.

These are just a few examples in a (supposedly) secured area where we had air supremacy. All it would take would be a half-dozen guys, a few MANPADS (and you can almost buy them on eBay-- they're all over the place), and they can give you a Bad Day.

And now, I'm going to have the jet loaded to the gills with munitions?

Interesting idea, but limited feasibility.

R.

Ditto From Some one that would routinely be in 7L or R Wearing some NVG's. Flying into Bahgram you could see the guys just aiming their AK up at you.

For a country that had so much poliferation of manpads they were barely used,

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by M-technik-3

For a country that had so much poliferation of manpads they were barely used,

And wasn't that an absolute, freakin' miracle?

I had that thought every single time I ran the Combat Entry Checklist.

(Of course, that thought was immediately followed by "Engineer, mark the AOR entry time on the forms" over the intercom. If you were there, you know why.)

That being said, it was a complete license to steal and fly something bigger than a 747 in some pretty extreme (i.e. fun) ways. Max-power, blacked out takeoff, suck up the gear and flaps, hold the jet to 50' over the ground, wait until you get to 320 knots, then pitch pitch pitch and aim for the ceiling while still at max thrust and bleeding airspeed as you climbed. You went up like a homesick angel and were out of the WEZ before you knew it. It would have been a good trick for a Bad Guy to successfully track you on that one.

I wore NVG's once in-theater. Never, ever again. It looked like the Fourth of July down there-- it seemed like every whackadoodle in-country was firing their AK at you even if they couldn't see you. I was happier *knowing* they were shooting at me, but not having to *watch* them shooting at me.

I did have to dump the bucket once or twice in-country on a SAM Alert from the ALE. THAT was like Zeus throwing lightning bolts at you. The ALE detector would light up and you'd hear a very loud "Deedle Deedle Deedle" in your headset. At the same time, you'd feel and hear a series of very loud thumps as the flares disbursed. And it got very bright for a couple of seconds as you honked into a 45 degree bank turn. All of that happened pretty much at the same time and tended to focus your attention nicely.

On a semi-related note: I went to a classified threat/tactics class for airlifters a long time ago and they had a captured SA-16 MANPAD that was wired up to a battery and computer as a trainer. You could track and fire on an aircraft (WITHOUT the missile launch, thankyouverymuch) and the computer would calculate whether or not you would have successfully scored a "hit" on the target aircraft.

Since there were a bunch of C-17's and KC-10's flying around the pattern, a couple of us gave it a try.

With LITERALLY less than 20 seconds of instruction after touching the SA-16 for the first time ever (Track, wait for tone, superelevate, pull trigger)-- we scored about a 90% kill rate on every aircraft we tried for in the pattern-- and the couple that we missed were simply poor aspect shots.

Admittedly, the jets were flying vanilla patterns and not doing tactical hijinks, but still.....

THAT.... pretty much showed me how lucky (and defenseless) we were out there in Indian Country. The Bad Guys in Iraq and Afghanistan should have been blowing aircraft out of the sky left and right.

To this day I don't understand why they didn't.

R.

[Llarry]

Tomcat Thursday!

During the test program for the then-new F-14A, there was some concern for what would happen if the wing sweep mechanism were to malfunction, resulting in asymmetry -- one wing swept and one not.

Accordingly, a test aircraft had the right wing fixed at the 20-degree sweep angle (all the way forward) and a flight was made with the left wing swept at various angles -- all the way back to max sweep of 68 degrees. (see photo) The conclusion was that the aircraft was still adequately controllable under those asymmetric conditions and that a carrier landing might even be possible.

Along the same lines, flights were made with the wings swept all the way back and the conclusion was that, while certainly not optimum, the F-14 could be flown with a wing sweep of 68 degrees for takeoff and landing. The stall speed in that condition was high, of course.

In any event, I am not aware that there was ever a malfunction of the wing sweep resulting in asymmetric flight.