[02CBM3]

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Washington Post quoting BMW head of sales Ian Robertson:

http://washpost.bloomberg.com/Story?...PTBJGGKB1O19MV

Nov. 11 (Bloomberg) -- BMW AG said sports cars may never find as many buyers as they did in the market’s glory days before the global recession.

“The sports-car market is roughly half of what it used to be,” Ian Robertson, BMW’s head of sales, said in an interview at the manufacturer’s headquarters in Munich. “Post-2008, it just collapsed. I’m not so sure it’ll ever fully recover.”

In Europe and North America, the car’s role as a status symbol has diminished, with sport-utility vehicles and their smaller crossover cousins becoming more popular. In China and emerging markets, Robertson said, hot weather, pollution and a penchant for chauffeur-driven limousines have made sports cars less popular among well-heeled clients.

Despite the downturn, selling a car built for speed and performance -- priced at a relatively high margin -- is an important part of building a brand’s allure. That’s why BMW, known for turning out sporty luxury vehicles, is teaming up with Toyota Motor Corp. to share development costs on a new mid-size sports car, Robertson said. The duo said last week their project has moved to the concept stage after completing a feasibility study. They declined to provide details.

Auto markets in Europe and North America, where cars like Daimler AG’s Mercedes-Benz SLK and Audi’s TT are popular in the sports segment, are recovering slowly after the financial crisis sent demand to the lowest in decades. Annual growth in excess of 10 percent in Asia has helped offset the declines.

Sales Slump

Combined global sales of the TT, SLK and BMW’s Z4 peaked at about 114,000 in 2007 before slumping 45 percent by 2010, according to research company IHS Automotive. Demand in China has remained negligible, while global sales are expected to reach about 72,000 vehicles by the end of the decade, IHS said.

“The market has been diluted with more offerings designed to appeal to the kind of demographic traditionally associated with these models,” Tim Urquhart, a London-based analyst at IHS, said in an e-mail. “Young, urban upwardly mobile professionals are now able to buy a much wider range of lifestyle vehicles other than sports cars.”

BMW is boosting sales of its other vehicles even as the sports segment stagnates. Global deliveries for the brand gained 9.3 percent in the first 10 months of the year to 1.47 million cars, putting the group as a whole, including its Mini and Rolls-Royce nameplates, on track to sell more than 2 million vehicles this year, the company said today.

Automakers tend to look for partners to limit costs of developing new technology and small-scale vehicles. Other tie- ups include Daimler’s cooperation with the Renault SA-Nissan Motor Co. alliance, which has been gradually expanding beyond projects such as new versions of Daimler’s Smart city cars and Renault’s Twingo subcompact.

BMW, the world’s biggest maker of luxury cars, and Toyota agreed in 2013 to collaborate on the underpinnings of a vehicle, the most visible project within a broader partnership that also includes cooperation on fuel cells and lightweight technology.

BMW is “taking very progressive steps with this now, and we’ll see how it goes in the months ahead,” Robertson said.

[Diver]

It may be the low to mid range sports car market is shrinking, but very fast cars like the Stingray are selling fast. If the car is a beast it will sell. If it is just a nice car with moderately good performance, perhaps that market has evaporated.

[Blindside_137]

Originally Posted by Diver

It may be the low to mid range sports car market is shrinking, but very fast cars like the Stingray are selling fast. If the car is a beast it will sell. If it is just a nice car with moderately good performance, perhaps that market has evaporated.

+1 but still somewhat depressing

[EmPower]

Originally Posted by Blindside_137

+1 but still somewhat depressing

This is a whole lot of c***. Compare the trim levels to the said cars in 2007/08 to what they are like now. If the Z4 was 15K cheaper base price, it would have made all the difference in the world. There is still a market for 30K+ good quality luxury sports run abouts; its just the Germans in their greed overestimated what a market could absorb and lost the plot. Not a lot of buyers want to spend 50+K on an average performing pig when there are much better alternatives for the same price

[wdeerfield]

Originally Posted by EmPower

This is a whole lot of c***. Compare the trim levels to the said cars in 2007/08 to what they are like now. If the Z4 was 15K cheaper base price, it would have made all the difference in the world. There is still a market for 30K+ good quality luxury sports run abouts; its just the Germans in their greed overestimated what a market could absorb and lost the plot. Not a lot of buyers want to spend 50+K on an average performing pig when there are much better alternatives for the same price

amen. you get much better value and options for a similar performing vehicle at half the cost. when a nissan altima has 260hp and all the bells and whistles a bmw has for only 26k, its hard for the everyday consumer to justify 50k for a 3 series that still doesnt have xenon headlights or fold down seats or comfort access. a 25k accord has all that and lane departure, back up camera, etc..

cant wait to see the 1k increase in cost for 2016 vehicles from bmw when the new law requiring backup cameras is implemented. bmw will reduce the screen size of that to 4in while competitors will include navi and a 9in screen.

and before the fanboys jump in.. yea yea.. driving dynamics. none of that matters to the everyday consumer. they mostly care about that lil 76mm roundel if anything. But there comes a point where lacking features and a basic looking interior drive individuals away.

[ORIGIN M.]

Explains why makers like Honda do not have any sports cars in their two car lines.

[jlstyle]

I completely agree. There are too many variations now and pure sports cars don't mean much these days unless it is P-Car F-Car L-Car.
I've owned Z4 before but I don't think I'll ever buy it again.

[Thurman Murch]

Then why can't BMW stop selling M cars and everything else and just focus on X cars since they are what the masses want?

... And then make what it considers a sports car by diluting it w a subpar brand that only frugals purchase and are riddled with stuck gas pedals and lowly airbags?

I'm sorry but most will still choose a macan - if there is one in stock. So it seems by offering as many variants and model series as possible is the only way for BMW to stay relevant.

I just wish BMW could focus on its core fundamentals and no matter what the 2008 global downturns instilled it could bring back the soul of yesteryear. The i8 seems like it is making owners happy - so I see the emphasis.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by EmPower

This is a whole lot of c***. Compare the trim levels to the said cars in 2007/08 to what they are like now. If the Z4 was 15K cheaper base price, it would have made all the difference in the world. There is still a market for 30K+ good quality luxury sports run abouts; its just the Germans in their greed overestimated what a market could absorb and lost the plot. Not a lot of buyers want to spend 50+K on an average performing pig when there are much better alternatives for the same price

Agree 100 percent.

This is rubbish. Manufacturers stopped building cars when the world economy slowed. Fine. We understand why. The only reason the segment is so slow to recover is that SOME manufacturers haven't brought new vehicles to market. Toyota gave up on sports cars 2 decades ago... so they don't really even count at all... but they do have the Scion FRS..

The last z4 was expensive and it never included an M model with a really kick but motor. Styling was warmed over from the prior model of Z4.. BMW has moved all it's vehicles so far upmarket that a z2 and a 2 series will be their sports car market for the future IF they decide to build them.

A new z4 would be 60k plus... And the m4 is already 65k plus. If BMW feels that there is a shrinking market for 60k sports cars they may be correct. But they have abandoned the 30-45k market completely.

Mitsu EVO, Subaru BRZ and STI and VW /Audi products in this segment still sell very well. Chevrolet is cranking out Camaros and Corvettes, Ford Mustang continues to sell well, Dodge has it's Challenger/ including 700 hp models. The Miata and the MINI both continue to sell well in this segment. Nissan Continues to make the 370 and also the GTR and a new Fiat Sports car is on the way to compete with the Cayman.. Mercedes seems to be selling plenty of SLK models alon with Black Series models of their sports sedans.


Mazda whiffed big time on the RX-8 styling but it still hung on for a long while. Honda should absolutely release a new S2000 and already rumors of the next NSX are out along with updates on their webpage.. http://www.acura.com/future/NSX#1

Will this segment never reach the heights of yesteryear? Perhaps not... with options like the X4 and Macan taking some buyers.. but this doesnt mean the segment is dead... Sheesh.

[DieGrüneHölle]

No BMW, it is your so-called sports cars that aren't selling. No one wants your hard-top convertible sports cars for a reason.

Build a proper fixed roof affordable sports car and it will sell.

Cars like the Stingray are selling like gangbusters. Less expensive car like the next gen Miata is going to fly of the showroom floors.

BMW execs, ask yourself this question. Would you buy a Z4 for the same price as a Boxster or Cayman? Lets see a Z4 35is or a Boxster/Cayman S...yeah exactly.

[BMW GENIUS]

Considering the fact that you can step into a BASE 2015 M235i for $2K LESS than a Base 2015 Z4 sDrive28i and get 2 more seats and a useable trunk is where this car shoots itself in the foot. To me, that just shouts "more money for more inconvenience." Plus there is NO HYPE behind the car!!! If they made an M model for the Z4 lineup again it would put some marketing coverage back on BMW's low demanded roadster!

[NickyC]

When people don't have money, they don't buy toys (sports cars). The fact of the matter is, the middle class in the USA has been decimated over the past seven years since the financial crisis and the prior standard of living isn't coming back anytime soon. The job situation in Europe is even worse and when you have two major markets that have seen the absolute destruction of middle class jobs, you will obviously see people focus on more utilitarian vehicles and drop the sports cars.

Lambo, Ferrari, Porsche, Aston, and all the other high end makers are immune from this for now of course. The insane and unsustainable increase in asset prices due to central bank and Fed pumping over the past seven years has assured that the 0.1% will have more money than ever to blow on luxury items. This will of course come to end sooner rather than later, with another collapse like 2007 (which I imagine will be far worse the next time). Lots of rich people are rich on paper only and are highly leveraged. Once the margin calls start coming in and the herds head for the small exit door, Lambo and all the car manufacturers will see huge decreases just like they did in the last crisis.

2007 changed everything, the next phase is coming.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by BMW GENIUS

Considering the fact that you can step into a BASE 2015 M235i for $2K LESS than a Base 2015 Z4 sDrive28i and get 2 more seats and a useable trunk is where this car shoots itself in the foot. To me, that just shouts "more money for more inconvenience." Plus there is NO HYPE behind the car!!! If they made an M model for the Z4 lineup again it would put some marketing coverage back on BMW's low demanded roadster!

I love roadsters (drove an S2000 for years) but I never even remember that BMW makes one. They are so outrageously expensive, a Boxster S is $3,000 less than a Z4 s-drive35is (what a stupid name)... Of course no one is going to buy the BMW.

[M3WC]

The sports car segment is were BMW is failing its loyal customers the most. We need a proper BMW sports car, something that we would see HPDE's filled with on the weekends. Light, agile, non-convertible and non-break the bank pricing. Use the BMW expertise to build a precise driving small sports car, that can get a cult following behind it.

[z19930612]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

Explains why makers like Honda do not have any sports cars in their two car lines.

Civic SI?

[GMe90]

The real problem are the ridiculously inflated prices on most BMWs. They are becoming way overpriced. A 328i should not be more than $50k under any set of circumstances. It's not worth it. And that's why the sales are dropping.

[Wes Howell]

Originally Posted by JetBlack5OC

The sports car segment is were BMW is failing its loyal customers the most. We need a proper BMW sports car, something that we would see HPDE's filled with on the weekends. Light, agile, non-convertible and non-break the bank pricing. Use the BMW expertise to build a precise driving small sports car, that can get a cult following behind it.

Well said. I spent 83k on my M4. (Sticker) What a dumbass I am.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by EmPower

This is a whole lot of c***. Compare the trim levels to the said cars in 2007/08 to what they are like now. If the Z4 was 15K cheaper base price, it would have made all the difference in the world. There is still a market for 30K+ good quality luxury sports run abouts; its just the Germans in their greed overestimated what a market could absorb and lost the plot. Not a lot of buyers want to spend 50+K on an average performing pig when there are much better alternatives for the same price

+1 x10000000

[3M TAPE]

Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut

Explains why makers like Honda do not have any sports cars in their two car lines.

I give you Civic Type R

[puma1552]

Originally Posted by EmPower

This is a whole lot of c***. Compare the trim levels to the said cars in 2007/08 to what they are like now. If the Z4 was 15K cheaper base price, it would have made all the difference in the world. There is still a market for 30K+ good quality luxury sports run abouts; its just the Germans in their greed overestimated what a market could absorb and lost the plot. Not a lot of buyers want to spend 50+K on an average performing pig when there are much better alternatives for the same price

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Agree 100 percent.

This is rubbish. Manufacturers stopped building cars when the world economy slowed. Fine. We understand why. The only reason the segment is so slow to recover is that SOME manufacturers haven't brought new vehicles to market. Toyota gave up on sports cars 2 decades ago... so they don't really even count at all... but they do have the Scion FRS..

The last z4 was expensive and it never included an M model with a really kick but motor. Styling was warmed over from the prior model of Z4.. BMW has moved all it's vehicles so far upmarket that a z2 and a 2 series will be their sports car market for the future IF they decide to build them.

A new z4 would be 60k plus... And the m4 is already 65k plus. If BMW feels that there is a shrinking market for 60k sports cars they may be correct. But they have abandoned the 30-45k market completely.

Mitsu EVO, Subaru BRZ and STI and VW /Audi products in this segment still sell very well. Chevrolet is cranking out Camaros and Corvettes, Ford Mustang continues to sell well, Dodge has it's Challenger/ including 700 hp models. The Miata and the MINI both continue to sell well in this segment. Nissan Continues to make the 370 and also the GTR and a new Fiat Sports car is on the way to compete with the Cayman.. Mercedes seems to be selling plenty of SLK models alon with Black Series models of their sports sedans.


Mazda whiffed big time on the RX-8 styling but it still hung on for a long while. Honda should absolutely release a new S2000 and already rumors of the next NSX are out along with updates on their webpage.. http://www.acura.com/future/NSX#1

Will this segment never reach the heights of yesteryear? Perhaps not... with options like the X4 and Macan taking some buyers.. but this doesnt mean the segment is dead... Sheesh.

Originally Posted by GMe90

The real problem are the ridiculously inflated prices on most BMWs. They are becoming way overpriced. A 328i should not be more than $50k under any set of circumstances. It's not worth it. And that's why the sales are dropping.

Agree with all of the above, and most of the sentiment here. I remember when a Z4 was very nicely equipped for around $40k. Now it's $70k?? Sorry, but my middle/upper middle class income hasn't increased by 75% in the last decade, so forget the Z4. For comparison, my GT stickered for $42k. Had BMW offered me a nicely equipped Z4 with its retractable hardtop (for year round driving in the north) for $40k-$45k, it would've been a 50/50 shot between the two. But, I couldn't even consider the Z4 at the asinine price BMW wants for it.

We are now at the point of $80k+ M3s. A $100k 3 series is just a few years away, no joke. I mean seriously?

Agreed on the 328i - $50k-$60k for a basic 3 series is laughable too. Why do I have to pay $475 for a fucking split folding rear seat? Why hasn't this been de facto standard since the 1980s?

Problem is, everyone says BMW's pricing is a joke, but nobody votes with their wallets - they get right into another lease and BMW makes money hand over fist, year in, year out. Now all BMW offers is an extremely diluted market of severely overpriced vehicles. 15 years ago I never thought in a million years that BMW (and other Germans, BMW isn't the only one here) would be selling $50k+ 2015 vehicles with halogen headlights. But the market hasn't spoken loud enough, and people just keep buying them up.

[3M TAPE]

Originally Posted by Wes Howell

Well said. I spent 83k on my M4. (Sticker) What a dumbass I am.

That's exactly how I felt when I bought my 2008 M3.
Definitely a waste when driving daily (ex. horsepower, gas mileage, maintenance etc)
I wish BMW makes something more "affordable" and still fun to drive like Z4 M coupe.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by EmPower

This is a whole lot of c***. Compare the trim levels to the said cars in 2007/08 to what they are like now. If the Z4 was 15K cheaper base price, it would have made all the difference in the world. There is still a market for 30K+ good quality luxury sports run abouts; its just the Germans in their greed overestimated what a market could absorb and lost the plot. Not a lot of buyers want to spend 50+K on an average performing pig when there are much better alternatives for the same price

^^Well said! +1.

The Z4's biggest problem is the Porsche Cayman and new Vette. The Z4 is just far too pricey new. The smart person would buy a low miles one CPO and save a ton. BMW really should drop the Z4's price $10K to $15K, then the car might have a fighting chance for the next year or two until a new niche model comes out.