[Chromey]

Read a lot yet I'm not sure what the answer is, I now have a AEM meth kit installed and a led light for when it's low or malfunctioning but how do I let my shop know how to make it so if anything fails the waste gates stay open ? Is this the fail safe way to set up the kit. I'm working with Ken and Dimitri on a custom map so I assume it will be pushing high Boost that if meth stopped flowing it would cause serious issues. Any advise be great. Scares me to go back to jb4 but I'm loving the Cobb and. Potential tune.

[Chromey]

Anyone? On how to set up so waste gates open on flow error etc

[Chromey]

Is this just s stupid question ? Am I asking the wrong thing or does no one have any insight. I emailed AEm so Ill await there response.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

In the instructions you can rig it up to tell the waste gates to bleed boost when meth flow is not adequate, same as aquamist kits. I've never done it personally so I can't offer further detail.

[Snertz]

There's no way to directly integrate the meth kit with Cobb.

I don't believe the AEM kit comes stock with a flow sensor, just voltage fault failsafe w/that little light. You'd have to run a flow sensor and failsafe, with a solenoid on the WG vac lines to cut boost.

Alternatively you could try intercepting the stock WG solenoid wires with a relay controlled by the failsafe. This is how the Aquamist HSF4 controls boost, but wired directly to the controller instead of a relay as the controller has the function built in.

The boost safe output from the AEM controller could also run the relay or solenoid but that wouldn't account for flow issues.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Snertz

There's no way to directly integrate the meth kit with Cobb.

I don't believe the AEM kit comes stock with a flow sensor, just voltage fault failsafe w/that little light. You'd have to run a flow sensor and failsafe, with a solenoid on the WG vac lines to cut boost.

Alternatively you could try intercepting the stock WG solenoid wires with a relay controlled by the failsafe. This is how the Aquamist HSF4 controls boost, but wired directly to the controller instead of a relay as the controller has the function built in.

The boost safe output from the AEM controller could also run the relay or solenoid but that wouldn't account for flow issues.

That's not entirely true:

Integrated Boost Safe Feature
The controllers in AEM’s Water Methanol systems include an integrated “Boost Safe” output feature that monitors the entire injection system and triggers a ground signal via an output if it detects a voltage-related error (short, bad connection, broken wire, overheated pump, high or low voltage signal, etc.), allowing users to define their failsafe strategy from something as simple as flashing a warning light to more advanced strategies like pulling boost or ignition, or switching fuel maps on a standalone engine management system. Combined with the integral and highly accurate conductive low-fluid switch in the tank, “Boost Safe” can also put your engine in safe mode before the system runs dry. This exclusive feature is found only on AEM Water/Methanol Injection Systems.

There are some good reads here about the kit including instructions: http://www.aemelectronics.com/?q=pro...soline-engines

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Also forgot to add the failsafe flow gauge by AEM.



http://www.aemelectronics.com/produc...failsafe-gauge

Today’s water/methanol injection systems have proven themselves as a viable means for effectively reducing engine inlet air temperatures and suppressing harmful detonation. This allows enthusiasts to reliably increase boost and advance ignition timing without the need for racing fuel. Despite the proven effectiveness and reliability of water/methanol injection, there exists a potential for engine damage if the water/methanol tank runs dry, if the pump stops working or more commonly if flow volume decreases due to fuel contamination, a clogged nozzle or a leak in the system.

While failsafe devices for water/methanol are not new, competitors’ failsafe systems have limitations that do not allow them to completely protect your engine if the water/methanol injection system stops flowing. Most failsafe devices have settings for high and low range flow parameters, but only monitor flow at a single point. And, without actually calculating volume versus time to establish a flow rate, instead running the system at full blast and using the nozzle’s potential for flow as your established flow rate, it is impossible to know the actual flow of the water/methanol system. Short version: if you think you are flowing 500cc/min and are actually flowing 300cc/min, and you are relying on your failsafe to trigger an alarm at a single reference point using 500cc/min of flow as your reference, then you have created the potential for engine damage.

Other competitors’ failsafe systems use a flow meter to establish water/methanol flow and utilize an external adjustment to trigger an alarm if the system does not detect maximum flow, using a time-delay strategy to compensate for part throttle operation. The problem is, water/methanol flow is rarely zero or maximum flow, and with all of the potential flow rates one can experience, a time delay strategy is not completely failsafe.

Actively monitors the entire water/methanol fuel injection curve to trigger an alarm event under any defined adverse condition!
Can be used on virtually all water/methanol injection systems with either 1/4" or 4mm OD tubing
"Auto Set" feature automatically creates baseline configuration
Built-in warning lights inform user of an alarm trigger
Internal data logger records all injection flow and alarm status data
Included high-tech analog gauge has black and white faceplates and bezels to match vehicle interior, and is programmable for either 0-500cc/min or 0-1000cc/min flow ranges
Gauge alarm and backlighting are user programmable to match interior lighting
Data analysis using AEMdata software.

This aspect would be in addition to the base kit.

[Chromey]

Can you PM the price of the fail safe gauge Jeff, shipped to Victoria thanks

[Chromey]

Response from AEM.. Very fast response too.

Good afternoon Jordan,

I don't have any install instructions specifically for the Cobb. The controller will output a "ground" signal when there is an error condition present. Some examples;

- Lowside connected to the other side of a warning light.
- Opens/closes the boost solenoid so the car runs on wastegate pressure. You need to figure out what your solenoid needs to open/close.
- Input into an aftermarket ECU to pull timing and slow down the engine
- etc etc etc

Thanks
Ryan

[ferocity02]

How can we use a ground signal to trigger the wastegates to open? Can it be tied into the boost solenoid wiring?

[Redbmwm33]

can you use a cobb AP for tuning and then have a JB4 for methanol control?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by artsoasis

can you use a cobb AP for tuning and then have a JB4 for methanol control?

Yes, you just need to make the appropriate settings in the Jb4 so the Cobb does the tuning and the JB4 does the methanol.

Originally Posted by ferocity02

How can we use a ground signal to trigger the wastegates to open? Can it be tied into the boost solenoid wiring?

I'm pretty sure that's what they mean.

[ferocity02]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

I'm pretty sure that's what they mean.

I guess I was looking more for specifics. I've heard our wastegates operate in reverse of normal cars, so I wonder if grounding the signal to the solenoids would cause the wastegates to open or close?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by ferocity02

I guess I was looking more for specifics. I've heard our wastegates operate in reverse of normal cars, so I wonder if grounding the signal to the solenoids would cause the wastegates to open or close?

I don't have the schematic in front of me but you got a 50/50 shot, right?

[ferocity02]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

I don't have the schematic in front of me but you got a 50/50 shot, right?

Hah yes, but one of the options is the exact opposite of what you would want to happen when the meth fails. I'm also curious if there is any chance of screwing up the solenoid or DME. Surely there would be an SES light. But small price to pay if it means saving your motor.

[Chromey]

Im still at a lost on what to ask my shop to do ...( I realize the light will shine if all fails but since i am using the meth to increase my map parameters so higher than normal boost levels and timing I assume i cant have it fail and then not have the wastegates open. Cant change mapps with the flash. not sure how to get it to reduce boost or timing with Cobb. Perhaps JB4 is the answer. How does Aquimist do it again?

[Snertz]

Originally Posted by Snertz

There's no way to directly integrate the meth kit with Cobb.

I don't believe the AEM kit comes stock with a flow sensor, just voltage fault failsafe w/that little light. You'd have to run a flow sensor and failsafe, with a solenoid on the WG vac lines to cut boost.

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

That's not entirely true:

Integrated Boost Safe Feature
The controllers in AEM’s Water Methanol systems include an integrated “Boost Safe” output feature that monitors the entire injection system and triggers a ground signal via an output if it detects a voltage-related error (short, bad connection, broken wire, overheated pump, high or low voltage signal, etc.)

Jeff, my comments were based on the instructions supplied by AEM that you copy and pasted, see the bolded part; Where am I wrong?

For the base AEM meth kit as supplied, there's no way for it to accurately account for things like a clogged nozzle, leak, etc without measuring actual flow via a failsafe w/flow sensor such as the AEM failsafe gauge.

Use of the ground signal to trigger the WG is what I was speaking of, put a relay into the wiring going to the stock WG's and control it with the output from the AEm controller. Make the relay trip open on the event of a ground signal, which in turns cuts out the WG noid and gates default to open.

Originally Posted by Chromey

Im still at a lost on what to ask my shop to do ...( I realize the light will shine if all fails but since i am using the meth to increase my map parameters so higher than normal boost levels and timing I assume i cant have it fail and then not have the wastegates open. Cant change mapps with the flash. not sure how to get it to reduce boost or timing with Cobb. Perhaps JB4 is the answer. How does Aquimist do it again?

Aquamist intercepts the wiring going to the WG solenoid and serves the same function as a relay cutting signal to the noid.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Snertz

Jeff, my comments were based on the instructions supplied by AEM that are copied and pasted in your post, see the bolded part; Where am I wrong?

For the base AEM meth kit as supplied, there's no way for it to accurately account for things like a clogged nozzle etc without measuring actual flow via a failsafe w/flow sensor such as the AEM failsafe gauge.

Use of the ground signal to trigger the WG is what I was speaking of, put a relay into the wiring going to the stock WG's and control it with the output from the AEm controller. Make the relay trip open on the event of a ground signal, which in turns cuts out the WG noid and gates default to open.

It was more of a clarification that AEM can do it with the apporpriate hardware purchased. I meant to clarify that when I responded but figured it was obvious from my later remarks.

Originally Posted by ferocity02

Hah yes, but one of the options is the exact opposite of what you would want to happen when the meth fails. I'm also curious if there is any chance of screwing up the solenoid or DME. Surely there would be an SES light. But small price to pay if it means saving your motor.

If you weren't 100% sure on which wire, all you need to do is run a conservative map for pump gas, while using methanol and see if the failsafe triggers and how the vehicle responds. If the wastegates open, you know it worked. If it doesn't work, try the other wire. It just comes down to getting back to basics. I can understand wanting to know beforehand. I ran the spray and pay method for years so unfortunately my knowledge with wiring these cars up with failsafes is limited. I had 3 flow sensors from labonte fail and after that I gave up and stuck with spray and pray, lol.

Chromey, if you have a schematic, please feel free to post it. I'm sure others would find it helpful.

[Snertz]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

It was more of a clarification that AEM can do it with the apporpriate hardware purchased. I meant to clarify that when I responded but figured it was obvious from my later remarks.

Fair enough

I recommend taking a look here for the schematic : http://www.bmw-planet.com/diagrams/r.../e90/index.htm