7:58 is the M2's Nurburgring Time, 8 sec Slower than the Civic !

M235Montreal · 10-13-2015, 05:38 PM

Greetings !

So the Official Time is up 7:58 from the smallest , most nimble BMW. 370 hp M2 , with DCT & Probably Carbon Ceramic Brakes and sticky PSS Tires ! not to mention that the 370 hp is most likely under rated as usual . still 8 sec shy of the 4 banger Civic type R FWD and manual transmission .

What is your take on this Metric guys ?

and for M235I , is it safe to say that the M2 performance is few Mods away from the M235i , just like the 1M was from the 135i ?

Thank you!

Pparana · 10-13-2015, 05:46 PM

I am on the track about 20 times a year, and I will be the first to tell you the lap times are about the most arbitrary way to decide if you want a car. Let alone a ring time. I have no idea why people are so obsessed with using it as a benchmark.

Yes you can mod a 2r past the m2, mine is already well past the specs of this car, but its not an m2, nor will either car appeal to the same people.

tbonez3858 · 10-13-2015, 05:55 PM

The civic had a full cage and bracing for "safety"...

M235Montreal · 10-13-2015, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbonez3858

The civic had a full cage and bracing for "safety"...

Still has beaten the M3 with no cage Around a Short track at Autocar I think .

tbonez3858 · 10-13-2015, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M235Montreal

Still has beaten the M3 with no cage Around a Short track at Autocar I think .

I'm not saying it's not an awesome car..it is. I'm saying the ring difference has no bearing and shouldn't be compared it is not a stock vs stock car...

jeremicium · 10-13-2015, 07:44 PM

Honda looks like they hit it out of the park with the new type R. If i recall the states and Canada will get a slightly detuned version...like we always do because Japan and Germany still hate us a bit? The Type R is faster around the Ring than the M3/4 as well. If i was looking for a new car, for regular track use, and as a commuter, and didn't care too much about comfort or brand i'd pick the type R over the M2/3/4. Honda knows how to make a special car when they put their mind to it. NSX...S2000.

I'm curious how it is to drive. After Eurodelivery of an M4, putting almost 2000 miles on it, and driving a few laps at the Ring. When I got back and got into my S2000, the S was not a disappointment in any way. Down on power, but every bit as rewarding to drive. Maybe the type R is the same.

Thing is, many of us get a BMW for the less tangible reasons. The comfort, looks, in addition to pretty damn respectable performance (and, unfortunately many for status). The type R misses the mark with the looks, and i'd guess with the comfort as well.

Either way, competition makes everyone better. Look at the hot hatch options these days, WRX, GTI, Focus RS, and in Europe the S3, M135, and Megane. Cars like the type R being so capable will force BMW to work harder on the next gen 1,2,3, and 4 series.

M235Montreal · 10-13-2015, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremicium

Honda looks like they hit it out of the park with the new type R. If i recall the states and Canada will get a slightly detuned version...like we always do because Japan and Germany still hate us a bit? The Type R is faster around the Ring than the M3/4 as well. If i was looking for a new car, for regular track use, and as a commuter, and didn't care too much about comfort or brand i'd pick the type R over the M2/3/4. Honda knows how to make a special car when they put their mind to it. NSX...S2000.

I'm curious how it is to drive. After Eurodelivery of an M4, putting almost 2000 miles on it, and driving a few laps at the Ring. When I got back and got into my S2000, the S was not a disappointment in any way. Down on power, but every bit as rewarding to drive. Maybe the type R is the same.

Thing is, many of us get a BMW for the less tangible reasons. The comfort, looks, in addition to pretty damn respectable performance (and, unfortunately many for status). The type R misses the mark with the looks, and i'd guess with the comfort as well.

Either way, competition makes everyone better. Look at the hot hatch options these days, WRX, GTI, Focus RS, and in Europe the S3, M135, and Megane. Cars like the type R being so capable will force BMW to work harder on the next gen 1,2,3, and 4 series.

To be noted as well, Type R was not watered down , it is always Balls to the walls, the M now is not the Ultimate, there will always be a Comp Package and eventually an M GTS, just like the AMG Black series.

I believe that bmw held back on the M2 to not touch the M4. the 2 Series Chassis is capable of more .

Lucky13 · 10-13-2015, 09:54 PM

One of my car magazines Car and Driver or Motor Trend just tested it and said the Civic type R wasn't that great of a car and looked like shit. Sorry I can't remember which one it was because I get 4 and just through out the issue in the trash 2 days ago. Not my opinion I'm just repeating what I read.

MrBucket · 10-13-2015, 10:28 PM

Different drivers
Different days
Different weather
Differing levels of traffic
Differing ways of timing the lap at the ring

Theres tons of reasons why times at the ring aren't easily comparable.

Cpdbeemer · 10-13-2015, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M235Montreal

I believe that bmw held back on the M2 to not touch the M4. the 2 Series Chassis is capable of more .

I was told by the owner of one of the BMW dealerships here, who had just returned from previews in Europe, that the M2 IS detuned so as not to pi$$ off M4 owners, but it could be easily fixed and was a very simple ECU retune.

wjones14 · 10-14-2015, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pparana

I am on the track about 20 times a year, and I will be the first to tell you the lap times are about the most arbitrary way to decide if you want a car. Let alone a ring time. I have no idea why people are so obsessed with using it as a benchmark.

If not track times, then how else would you compare Car A with Car B to determine which is faster?

I also have been to multiple track day events, so I realize that drivers make a huge difference. When I first started, I was passed by a Mazdaspeed3 and a Volvo(!) when learning in my Mustang GT. As I got better, I was passing cars I shouldn't have been able to pass.

But, using Motor Trend's Head 2 Head formula, where Randy Pobst drives two cars back to back the same day on the same track, I don't see why that can't be used as a benchmark. I'm not trying to be a wise guy.

huma · 10-14-2015, 08:24 AM

If I were you guys, I wouldn't discount Honda. They produced the NSX in the 90's that competed well against vehicles 2-3x its price range.

Type R's are no joke when it comes to performance. M2 is hands down more mature and luxurious. If you want balls to the walls performance, it's difficult to beat the CTR for its price.

BimmerMat135 · 10-14-2015, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cpdbeemer

Quote:

Originally Posted by M235Montreal

I believe that bmw held back on the M2 to not touch the M4. the 2 Series Chassis is capable of more .

I was told by the owner of one of the BMW dealerships here, who had just returned from previews in Europe, that the M2 IS detuned so as not to pi$$ off M4 owners, but it could be easily fixed and was a very simple ECU retune.

The 100$ question: Can it be done at the dealer while maintaining factory warranty?

M235Montreal · 10-14-2015, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BimmerMat135

The 100$ question: Can it be done at the dealer while maintaining factory warranty?

Actually i don't Agree with that statement , the M2 does not have a detuned M4 Engine but rather an upgraded N55 Engine . with some M bits ... so it's a m235i on juice !

M235Montreal · 10-14-2015, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cpdbeemer

I was told by the owner of one of the BMW dealerships here, who had just returned from previews in Europe, that the M2 IS detuned so as not to pi$$ off M4 owners, but it could be easily fixed and was a very simple ECU retune.

Actually it has the N55 engine ! not the S

PrematureApex · 10-14-2015, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M235Montreal

Actually it has the N55 engine ! not the S

Again, it's just a name. This "N55" has a completely different block, along with the S55 crank and pistons (apparently, or at least unique crank and pistons). I mean, that's a new engine by anyone's definition...hardly an N55.

Similarly, the S55 is based on the N55, but has...wait for it...a different block, crank, pistons...

M235Montreal · 10-14-2015, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Again, it's just a name. This "N55" has a completely different block, along with the S55 crank and pistons (apparently, or at least unique crank and pistons). I mean, that's a new engine by anyone's definition...hardly an N55.

Similarly, the S55 is based on the N55, but has...wait for it...a different block, crank, pistons...

and 2 Turbos

jtzako · 10-14-2015, 03:29 PM

The Ring is just not a good way to judge cars anymore. (if it ever was) Unless it is a closed course with no traffic, and similar weather conditions when they do the runs there are too many factors that change times.
Different drivers also can have a drastic effect. Even looking at professional drivers (F1 etc). Look at Top Gear with Stig vs the F1 drivers on their track. It took ages for one to beat his time just be cause he is more familiar with the track and car.
You also have a lot of non-production versions of the car going around to get a time that may be quite different than the time a production version gets.

MrBucket · 10-14-2015, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wjones14

If not track times, then how else would you compare Car A with Car B to determine which is faster?

I also have been to multiple track day events, so I realize that drivers make a huge difference. When I first started, I was passed by a Mazdaspeed3 and a Volvo(!) when learning in my Mustang GT. As I got better, I was passing cars I shouldn't have been able to pass.

But, using Motor Trend's Head 2 Head formula, where Randy Pobst drives two cars back to back the same day on the same track, I don't see why that can't be used as a benchmark. I'm not trying to be a wise guy.

The Nurburgring is a good track to compare drivers on, not as great for comparing cars directly unless the drivers are the same. So much of the laptime is down to memorization of every bit of the track and if you get traffic. Most other tracks with 1-2 minute laptimes you can learn after a few sessions. It takes years to get good at the ring.

MrBucket · 10-14-2015, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M235Montreal

Actually it has the N55 engine ! not the S

Hes saying its been detuned compared to what it could potentially produce, not that its a detuned version of the S55.

Cpdbeemer · 10-14-2015, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBucket

Hes saying its been detuned compared to what it could potentially produce, not that its a detuned version of the S55.

Correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BimmerMat135

The 100$ question: Can it be done at the dealer while maintaining factory warranty?

Good question. If the dealer principal is telling me this, maybe so!

allthatisntnow · 10-14-2015, 04:05 PM

So if the N55 in the M2 is using the pistons from the S55, does that mean its larger bore and shorter throw than a standard N55? As thats the only way it could work like that. Unless they mean same material and manufacturing process?

Peak power at 6500 rpm seems to point to it. But that would mean for all intents and purposes it had the S55 block. Which would mean it essentially had the S55 bar the air to water intercooler and twin turbo set up and usage of cast iron liners. Which would make it well over 50% S55......S55 based on N55......N55 based on S55.......could just be a marketing angle to not anger M3/4 owners......illuminati confirmed...or maybe not.

10-13-2015, 05:38 PM	#1
M235Montreal BMW Lover 123 Rep 251 Posts Drives: M2 Competition Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Canada iTrader: (0)	7:58 is the M2's Nurburgring Time, 8 sec Slower than the Civic ! Greetings ! So the Official Time is up 7:58 from the smallest , most nimble BMW. 370 hp M2 , with DCT & Probably Carbon Ceramic Brakes and sticky PSS Tires ! not to mention that the 370 hp is most likely under rated as usual . still 8 sec shy of the 4 banger Civic type R FWD and manual transmission . What is your take on this Metric guys ? and for M235I , is it safe to say that the M2 performance is few Mods away from the M235i , just like the 1M was from the 135i ? Thank you!
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10-13-2015, 05:46 PM	#2
Pparana Captain 463 Rep 957 Posts Drives: 2015 m235i Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Jacksonville Fl iTrader: (1)	I am on the track about 20 times a year, and I will be the first to tell you the lap times are about the most arbitrary way to decide if you want a car. Let alone a ring time. I have no idea why people are so obsessed with using it as a benchmark. Yes you can mod a 2r past the m2, mine is already well past the specs of this car, but its not an m2, nor will either car appeal to the same people.
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10-13-2015, 05:55 PM	#3
tbonez3858 Private 37 Rep 95 Posts Drives: Car Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: GA iTrader: (0)	The civic had a full cage and bracing for "safety"...
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10-13-2015, 07:44 PM	#6
jeremicium Major 171 Rep 1,178 Posts Drives: 2011 E92 328i Join Date: May 2009 Location: Tacoma, Wa. USA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2011 BMW 328i [0.00] 2009 Porsche Cayman S [0.00] 2016 BMW M2 [0.00] 2001 Honda S2000 [0.00]	Honda looks like they hit it out of the park with the new type R. If i recall the states and Canada will get a slightly detuned version...like we always do because Japan and Germany still hate us a bit? The Type R is faster around the Ring than the M3/4 as well. If i was looking for a new car, for regular track use, and as a commuter, and didn't care too much about comfort or brand i'd pick the type R over the M2/3/4. Honda knows how to make a special car when they put their mind to it. NSX...S2000. I'm curious how it is to drive. After Eurodelivery of an M4, putting almost 2000 miles on it, and driving a few laps at the Ring. When I got back and got into my S2000, the S was not a disappointment in any way. Down on power, but every bit as rewarding to drive. Maybe the type R is the same. Thing is, many of us get a BMW for the less tangible reasons. The comfort, looks, in addition to pretty damn respectable performance (and, unfortunately many for status). The type R misses the mark with the looks, and i'd guess with the comfort as well. Either way, competition makes everyone better. Look at the hot hatch options these days, WRX, GTI, Focus RS, and in Europe the S3, M135, and Megane. Cars like the type R being so capable will force BMW to work harder on the next gen 1,2,3, and 4 series.
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10-13-2015, 09:54 PM	#8
Lucky13 Lucky13 213 Rep 1,762 Posts Drives: 2014 M235 manual, 2020 X3 30X Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Columbia, S.C. iTrader: (0)	One of my car magazines Car and Driver or Motor Trend just tested it and said the Civic type R wasn't that great of a car and looked like shit. Sorry I can't remember which one it was because I get 4 and just through out the issue in the trash 2 days ago. Not my opinion I'm just repeating what I read. __________________ 1995 325i, 1996 328ci, 1997 528i, 1997 Z3 2.8, 2000 528i, 2001 X5 3.0, 2001 330i Convertible, 2002 M3 Convertible, 2003 M3 Coupe, 2004 M3 Coupe, 2004 Z4 3.0, 2004 X3 3.0, 2007 X3 3.0, 2007 335i Convertible, 2013 X1 28 sdrive, 2014 M235 manual, 2020 X3 30i Xdrive
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10-13-2015, 10:28 PM	#9
MrBucket Captain 257 Rep 721 Posts Drives: '17 AW M2 6MT Exec Pack Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: United States iTrader: (0)	Different drivers Different days Different weather Differing levels of traffic Differing ways of timing the lap at the ring Theres tons of reasons why times at the ring aren't easily comparable.
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10-14-2015, 08:24 AM	#12
huma First Lieutenant 94 Rep 356 Posts Drives: U11 one day Join Date: May 2014 Location: Mars iTrader: (0)	If I were you guys, I wouldn't discount Honda. They produced the NSX in the 90's that competed well against vehicles 2-3x its price range. Type R's are no joke when it comes to performance. M2 is hands down more mature and luxurious. If you want balls to the walls performance, it's difficult to beat the CTR for its price.
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10-14-2015, 03:29 PM	#18
jtzako Private First Class 8 Rep 115 Posts Drives: 228i M-Sport Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Colorado iTrader: (0)	The Ring is just not a good way to judge cars anymore. (if it ever was) Unless it is a closed course with no traffic, and similar weather conditions when they do the runs there are too many factors that change times. Different drivers also can have a drastic effect. Even looking at professional drivers (F1 etc). Look at Top Gear with Stig vs the F1 drivers on their track. It took ages for one to beat his time just be cause he is more familiar with the track and car. You also have a lot of non-production versions of the car going around to get a time that may be quite different than the time a production version gets.
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10-14-2015, 04:05 PM	#22
allthatisntnow Lieutenant 377 Rep 596 Posts Drives: BMW M2C, 991 C2 Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: North East iTrader: (0)	So if the N55 in the M2 is using the pistons from the S55, does that mean its larger bore and shorter throw than a standard N55? As thats the only way it could work like that. Unless they mean same material and manufacturing process? Peak power at 6500 rpm seems to point to it. But that would mean for all intents and purposes it had the S55 block. Which would mean it essentially had the S55 bar the air to water intercooler and twin turbo set up and usage of cast iron liners. Which would make it well over 50% S55......S55 based on N55......N55 based on S55.......could just be a marketing angle to not anger M3/4 owners......illuminati confirmed...or maybe not.
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