[BiscottiGelato]

This is seriously crazy and ridiculous. I assumed a lease last December because my 135i totalled due to some other idiot's fault. Payout from insurance was great, but getting a new vehicle have been a nightmare getting worse.

So after 2 months of not having a vehicle amidst situation in life in major flux, I decided that the safe way to play it is to pick-up a lease with as few months remaining as possible. This turned out to be a 328i xDrive, Imperial Blue on Red, with 18 months left at the time. I was thinking to myself that this avoids the problem of losing out big time on tax if I buy a used vehicle and then resell it later. I can always just pay the transfer fees and get someone else to assume the lease if I decide that I don't want the vehicle no more.

So personal circumstances changed some more over the last 4 months and I am to leave the country. Getting rid of my rental apartment was easy. So I looked onto listing my vehicle on LeaseBusters.com, but was advised that I might have problems because BMWFS have policy against a 2nd transfer of a lease. LeaseBusters told me to contact BMW and get written pre-approval from them before wasting my money listing the vehicle on LeaseBusters.

A few calls to BMWFS was completely unhelpful. The representative was like an automated answering machine, repeating the following points:
- Yes, there is policy against a 2nd lease transfer
- Under exceptional circumstances, a 2nd lease transfer maybe permitted
- There is no way to do anything without a dealer to initiate a transfer process, and then only at that point can it be determined whether a 2nd lease transfer will be allowed.

I was advised to talk to a dealer instead. So I did. And the dealer was just as unhelpful.
- From his experience, leaving the country have never been a sufficient reason for BMWFS to approve a 2nd lease transfer.
- There is nothing more they can do. I can go ahead and try to start a lease transfer process anyways, but likelihood is it won't be approved.

This policy makes absolutely no sense. As the potential alternative for me here is to stop lease payment and let them bad credit me, since I might not come back to Canada anyways. This would be a lose-lose situation for both me and BMWFS.

I also looked over the documents I have signed, and at least on those papers directly, none of them said that a 2nd lease transfer is explicitly prohibited. I was not verbally advised of this either when I signed the papers initially during the first lease transfer. In fact I just did a quick Google search and I cannot find anything anywhere saying that a 2nd lease transfer is not allowed.

Anybody with experience on this? This is ludicrous and makes no sense. Please help. Thanks!

[Msmall143]

Originally Posted by BiscottiGelato

This is seriously crazy and ridiculous. I assumed a lease last December because my 135i totalled due to some other idiot's fault. Payout from insurance was great, but getting a new vehicle have been a nightmare getting worse.

So after 2 months of not having a vehicle amidst situation in life in major flux, I decided that the safe way to play it is to pick-up a lease with as few months remaining as possible. This turned out to be a 328i xDrive, Imperial Blue on Red, with 18 months left at the time. I was thinking to myself that this avoids the problem of losing out big time on tax if I buy a used vehicle and then resell it later. I can always just pay the transfer fees and get someone else to assume the lease if I decide that I don't want the vehicle no more.

So personal circumstances changed some more over the last 4 months and I am to leave the country. Getting rid of my rental apartment was easy. So I looked onto listing my vehicle on LeaseBusters.com, but was advised that I might have problems because BMWFS have policy against a 2nd transfer of a lease. LeaseBusters told me to contact BMW and get written pre-approval from them before wasting my money listing the vehicle on LeaseBusters.

A few calls to BMWFS was completely unhelpful. The representative was like an automated answering machine, repeating the following points:
- Yes, there is policy against a 2nd lease transfer
- Under exceptional circumstances, a 2nd lease transfer maybe permitted
- There is no way to do anything without a dealer to initiate a transfer process, and then only at that point can it be determined whether a 2nd lease transfer will be allowed.

I was advised to talk to a dealer instead. So I did. And the dealer was just as unhelpful.
- From his experience, leaving the country have never been a sufficient reason for BMWFS to approve a 2nd lease transfer.
- There is nothing more they can do. I can go ahead and try to start a lease transfer process anyways, but likelihood is it won't be approved.

This policy makes absolutely no sense. As the potential alternative for me here is to stop lease payment and let them bad credit me, since I might not come back to Canada anyways. This would be a lose-lose situation for both me and BMWFS.

I also looked over the documents I have signed, and at least on those papers directly, none of them said that a 2nd lease transfer is explicitly prohibited. I was not verbally advised of this either when I signed the papers initially during the first lease transfer. In fact I just did a quick Google search and I cannot find anything anywhere saying that a 2nd lease transfer is not allowed.

Anybody with experience on this? This is ludicrous and makes no sense. Please help. Thanks!

i understand the paperwork you signed may not state a 2nd lease transfer is not allowed. but does it say that a transfer IS allowed?

also, have you considered trying to sell the car for the buy out price?

[BiscottiGelato]

Originally Posted by Msmall143

i understand the paperwork you signed may not state a 2nd lease transfer is not allowed. but does it say that a transfer IS allowed?

also, have you considered trying to sell the car for the buy out price?

No indication it will not be allowed. Doesn't explicitly state it's allowed either. There was a precedence of the first transfer of coz. But the contract itself doesn't matter as much, as I won't take them to court over this.

Problem is more why is this there, a policy that essentially hurts BMWFS interest?

I did consider buying and selling out right. But the vehicle condition is better catered to lease than buy-out. There is excess wear and tear purchased for it, which would be forfeited if it's bought out.

[jwzimm]

Caveat Emptor.

Since you had planned/considered transferring the lease when you assumed it in the first place you should have fully researched the process as well as the restrictions on it. If the policy was longstanding and commonly known it should have been easy to find out about.

I can understand BMW limiting this in some way. They have to process paperwork and run credit checks each time a lease is transferred which is not free. Not to mention the messy paper trail it leaves. Honestly, we are lucky they allow lease transfers in the first place. You are, after all, breaking a contract you signed agreeing to the full term of the lease. They have every right to tell you to pack sand.

[BiscottiGelato]

Originally Posted by jwzimm

Caveat Emptor.

Since you had planned/considered transferring the lease when you assumed it in the first place you should have fully researched the process as well as the restrictions on it. If the policy was longstanding and commonly known it should have been easy to find out about.

I can understand BMW limiting this in some way. They have to process paperwork and run credit checks each time a lease is transferred which is not free. Not to mention the messy paper trail it leaves. Honestly, we are lucky they allow lease transfers in the first place. You are, after all, breaking a contract you signed agreeing to the full term of the lease. They have every right to tell you to pack sand.

I read everything I signed but this is beyond fine print. I don't think we ask what we assume obvious questions. Do we ask if we are allowed to sell a car later after we buy it too? Pretty fair for one to think that if a transfer is allowed in the first place, that a 2nd, 3rd will also be the case. This is especially when BMW charges $1800 CAD for a transfer. Definitely not free for the tranferees, but seems profitable for BMW. It baffles the mind why BMW does not want to make more money. I see 0 reasons. It's bad for themselves, bad for the customers and bad for potential customers (other manufacturers doesn't prevent this)

And a Google search turned up nothing regarding this policy. So this is definitely not commonly known. So far nobody with real insight or experience with a 2nd transfer have spoken up in this thread. A search thru the entire Bimmerpost with my poor searching skill turned up nothing either. So i don't think it's as if I looked at a brick wall head on and intentionally walk into it.

I guess no one else ran into problems with this and nobody ever needed a 2nd transfer? I am asking for solutions and insight (why) here. Bashing that I'm not a contract lawyer whom assumes every bad intention possible by BMWFS isn't quite the point. If you have no insight and probably never even went thru a lease transfer ever with BMW (and not even knowing about their very exuberant transfer fee); with the response purely to bash someone so you can feel superior, then I can say that is not a constructive response that is welcomed here.

[backhill]

Originally Posted by Msmall143

i understand the paperwork you signed may not state a 2nd lease transfer is not allowed. but does it say that a transfer IS allowed?

also, have you considered trying to sell the car for the buy out price?

The burden of proof will always be on the draftee of any legal document. They must explicitly state it's not allowed for reasons x, y and z. Not stating that it IS allowed is the document owner's burden to fight against, usually with little success.

[HawaiiG80Green]

I assumed a lease on a 2013 328i and transferred it again after 3 months. No problem whatsoever. Call BMWFS again to have them qualify for a lease transfer.

[Msmall143]

it does make sense. bmw leases the vehicle with a specific residual in mind. and the true residual can certainly be affected by number of previous owners. once returned they carry the burden of selling it. if a lease is transferred 3, 4, 5, 6 times then the carfax reflects that # of owners. a 1 or 2 owner car that is 3 years old is easier to sell than a 3+ owner car.

[The HACK]

I don't get it. Why are you even trying to do a lease transfer?

With only a dozen payment left on the bill, you can probably private party the car and even make a minor profit on the car.

Just sell it. Unless you're not in the US most states the BUYER is responsible for the sales tax. Lease transfer only makes sense if you're at the front end of a lease.

Unless the car has more mileage than typical or is in really bad shape, in that case few will want to assume said lease anyway.

[BiscottiGelato]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I don't get it. Why are you even trying to do a lease transfer?

With only a dozen payment left on the bill, you can probably private party the car and even make a minor profit on the car.

Just sell it. Unless you're not in the US most states the BUYER is responsible for the sales tax. Lease transfer only makes sense if you're at the front end of a lease.

Unless the car has more mileage than typical or is in really bad shape, in that case few will want to assume said lease anyway.

Isn't doing a private party very risky? What if they don't return with the car at all? How should payment be structured? Lumpsum up front?

[The HACK]

You've never bought or sold any capital goods before? Anything worth more than a grand?

Private party sales involve the same exact principal as any used goods sales. You don't let someone take your old smart phone unless they paid it in full. And if they need to arrange for FINANCE to buy your used smart phone, all that is on the shoulders of the buyer.

Find out from BMW FS what the buy-out is as it stands today, list the car for sale on a wide variety of resources (KBB, cars.com, autotrader.com, CL...etc) plus 10% plus tax, and negotiate when a serious buyer comes along.

Or take it to the local CarMax or AutoNation and have them appraise the car and see if they'll buy it for MORE than the current payoff.

I don't get it. What do you mean "if they don't return with the car?" Google private party auto sales and there are thousands of articles out there that will walk you through the process and point out all the scams you need to watch for. If they don't return with the car? Report it stolen and insurance company will cut a check to BMW FS. Payment be structured? They should make a check out to BMW FS to close out the lease and obtain the title, and a check to YOU for whatever you guys negotiate up front. There's no payment structure. You don't own the car. BMW FS does. If their check bounces, report the car stolen and your insurance company will cut a check to BMW FS.

In a way, selling a used lease has far less risk than used paid off or financed car. BMW FS will even send you all the information required to assist you in the transaction.

Worst case, you're an absolute newb with the process, take your buyer with you and the car to the nearest BMW dealership and ask their used car department to help you facilitate the sale and they'll take care of EVERYTHING for you. As long as you can find a buyer.

I'm going to Special Agent Oso you. Three simple steps. Step 1. Find out from BMW FS what the payoff on the lease is. Step 2. List the car for sale on a variety of outlets for payoff plus 10% plus tax. Step 3. Sell the car.

[BiscottiGelato]

Originally Posted by The HACK

You've never bought or sold any capital goods before? Anything worth more than a grand?

Private party sales involve the same exact principal as any used goods sales. You don't let someone take your old smart phone unless they paid it in full. And if they need to arrange for FINANCE to buy your used smart phone, all that is on the shoulders of the buyer.

Find out from BMW FS what the buy-out is as it stands today, list the car for sale on a wide variety of resources (KBB, cars.com, autotrader.com, CL...etc) plus 10% plus tax, and negotiate when a serious buyer comes along.

Or take it to the local CarMax or AutoNation and have them appraise the car and see if they'll buy it for MORE than the current payoff.

I don't get it. What do you mean "if they don't return with the car?" Google private party auto sales and there are thousands of articles out there that will walk you through the process and point out all the scams you need to watch for. If they don't return with the car? Report it stolen and insurance company will cut a check to BMW FS. Payment be structured? They should make a check out to BMW FS to close out the lease and obtain the title, and a check to YOU for whatever you guys negotiate up front. There's no payment structure. You don't own the car. BMW FS does. If their check bounces, report the car stolen and your insurance company will cut a check to BMW FS.

In a way, selling a used lease has far less risk than used paid off or financed car. BMW FS will even send you all the information required to assist you in the transaction.

Worst case, you're an absolute newb with the process, take your buyer with you and the car to the nearest BMW dealership and ask their used car department to help you facilitate the sale and they'll take care of EVERYTHING for you. As long as you can find a buyer.

I'm going to Special Agent Oso you. Three simple steps. Step 1. Find out from BMW FS what the payoff on the lease is. Step 2. List the car for sale on a variety of outlets for payoff plus 10% plus tax. Step 3. Sell the car.

I thought u meant private party subleasing.

If it's buy out and resell. No it's not profitable at all. This is even if no double taxing is involved and BMW doesn't charge me extra for someone else to do the final buyout. (Buyer pays me a bunch to pay off remaining lease and the buyer directly pays residual for buyout, avoiding double tax). I have listed the vehicle for $2.5k out of pocket and still no dibs

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by BiscottiGelato

I thought u meant private party subleasing.

If it's buy out and resell. No it's not profitable at all. This is even if no double taxing is involved and BMW doesn't charge me extra for someone else to do the final buyout. (Buyer pays me a bunch to pay off remaining lease and the buyer directly pays residual for buyout, avoiding double tax). I have listed the vehicle for $2.5k out of pocket and still no dibs

I don't think you understand how leasing works.

Three steps. Call BMW FS and find out what the CURRENT payout is, not the end of lease residual. List the car for sale for the CURRENT payout plus a small percentage plus tax. If a private buyer is willing to pay that price, you will make the small percentage you listed. Otherwise negotiate for the cost of current payout plus tax, or cost of current payout minus a small amount you're willing to subsidize. Then have buyer cut a check to BMW FS to transfer title over.

Current payout is key. The residual value is irrelevant. Heck if you really want to get fancy, you can even look up private party value on KBB and compare it to current payout to get a sense of what you should list the car for.

I'm about to bore the crap out of you, so if you've already set your mind that you want to lease transfer, STOP reading right now.















Leasing is simpler than you think. All the financial institution is doing, is they're RENTING you the property based on the stated capitalization of the property when new, and based on the number of months you're renting the property for, the difference in capitalization and depreciated value (plus tax on the difference) divided by the number of PAYMENT you make. So we've all heard the old adage that once you drive a new car off the lot, it loses 1/2 of its value, correct? This means, at the beginning of any typical vehicle lease, the difference in what the financial institution has received (CURRENT PAYOUT) vs. the actual value (depreciation) is quite huge. Take, for example, a $40K car. After 2 months in the lease, the payout may only be $39,000, while the car is actually only worth about $34,000. Anyone planing on buying said lease car as a used car will have to come up with $5,000 more than the car's actual worth to own it.

But say, it's 28 payment into the lease. As is right now, payout for the car (the cost minus the $$$ already payed to the financial institution) is $27,000. It's been 2 years, and 4 month into the lease, car's maintained well and mileage is below the allocated 12,000 miles per year. BLUE BOOK value is $26,800 as it currently stands because the car's depreciation is better than projected when the lease was initially drafted up. Say, you sell the car for $26,800 plus tax. The BUYER cuts a check for $27,000 to BMW FS, you pay him/her $200, and buyer assumes the responsibility to pay tax on the transaction.

Or, a better scenario would be, car far outpaced depreciation, instead of being driven 12,000 miles a year, it's only got about 15,000 miles on it after 30 months of payment. With 6 payment of $500 left, the payout is $25,000 but the actual KBB private party value is around $26,500 because low mileage (and it hasn't rolled over to a new manufacturer's year yet). You sell the car for $26,500, pocket the $1,500 difference, rather than pay $3,000 to BMW FS to close out the lease.

But say the flip side of the coin is true. You've got 10 payments left (26 payment into the lease), the car is driven and beaten to heck. 10 payment of whatever it is is around $5,XXX. Currently the payout is $27,xxx, the car's really only worth about $24,000. Instead of paying $5,xxx to close out and terminate the lease, you find someone willing to pay $24,000 plus tax for your car, you're really only out $3,xxx vs. $5,xxx to close it out.











But you won't really know what the close-out cost is for you unless you call and find out what your current pay-off is.

[BiscottiGelato]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I don't think you understand how leasing works.

Three steps. Call BMW FS and find out what the CURRENT payout is, not the end of lease residual. List the car for sale for the CURRENT payout plus a small percentage plus tax. If a private buyer is willing to pay that price, you will make the small percentage you listed. Otherwise negotiate for the cost of current payout plus tax, or cost of current payout minus a small amount you're willing to subsidize. Then have buyer cut a check to BMW FS to transfer title over.

Current payout is key. The residual value is irrelevant. Heck if you really want to get fancy, you can even look up private party value on KBB and compare it to current payout to get a sense of what you should list the car for.

I'm about to bore the crap out of you, so if you've already set your mind that you want to lease transfer, STOP reading right now.















Leasing is simpler than you think. All the financial institution is doing, is they're RENTING you the property based on the stated capitalization of the property when new, and based on the number of months you're renting the property for, the difference in capitalization and depreciated value (plus tax on the difference) divided by the number of PAYMENT you make. So we've all heard the old adage that once you drive a new car off the lot, it loses 1/2 of its value, correct? This means, at the beginning of any typical vehicle lease, the difference in what the financial institution has received (CURRENT PAYOUT) vs. the actual value (depreciation) is quite huge. Take, for example, a $40K car. After 2 months in the lease, the payout may only be $39,000, while the car is actually only worth about $34,000. Anyone planing on buying said lease car as a used car will have to come up with $5,000 more than the car's actual worth to own it.

But say, it's 28 payment into the lease. As is right now, payout for the car (the cost minus the $$$ already payed to the financial institution) is $27,000. It's been 2 years, and 4 month into the lease, car's maintained well and mileage is below the allocated 12,000 miles per year. BLUE BOOK value is $26,800 as it currently stands because the car's depreciation is better than projected when the lease was initially drafted up. Say, you sell the car for $26,800 plus tax. The BUYER cuts a check for $27,000 to BMW FS, you pay him/her $200, and buyer assumes the responsibility to pay tax on the transaction.

Or, a better scenario would be, car far outpaced depreciation, instead of being driven 12,000 miles a year, it's only got about 15,000 miles on it after 30 months of payment. With 6 payment of $500 left, the payout is $25,000 but the actual KBB private party value is around $26,500 because low mileage (and it hasn't rolled over to a new manufacturer's year yet). You sell the car for $26,500, pocket the $1,500 difference, rather than pay $3,000 to BMW FS to close out the lease.

But say the flip side of the coin is true. You've got 10 payments left (26 payment into the lease), the car is driven and beaten to heck. 10 payment of whatever it is is around $5,XXX. Currently the payout is $27,xxx, the car's really only worth about $24,000. Instead of paying $5,xxx to close out and terminate the lease, you find someone willing to pay $24,000 plus tax for your car, you're really only out $3,xxx vs. $5,xxx to close it out.











But you won't really know what the close-out cost is for you unless you call and find out what your current pay-off is.

BMW quoted me a payout price and is exactly the residual value + all remaining lease payments. So I don't know if you are the one confused or if I am :