[Doctor///M]

     Featured on BIMMERPOST.com

This is a letter to the editor in this month's issue of the Roundel. Consider it a PSA to anyone considering attending (and is wondering what happens in the case of an accident), although I can say that the events are properly managed and safety is priority based on my personal experience.

More info on the driving school can be found here.

[fecurtis]

Woah interesting.

[Jono2112]

Originally Posted by Doctor///M

This is a letter to the editor in this month's issue of the Roundel. Consider it a PSA to anyone considering attending (and is wondering what happens in the case of an accident), although I can say that the events are properly managed and safety is priority based on my personal experience.

More info on the driving school can be found here.

That is crap. You might as well join BMW CCA go to the HPDE events with your own car. At least you can buy insurance for your own car. I can't believe BMWs own lawyers allow that, waivers are not bullet proof and this still exposes them to liability.

[GuidoK]

I dont understand that BMW apparently sells m3's to people that cant drive....

[oolas3]

How many people discover this only after they get to the performance center. BMW should be much more upfront about this absurd policy.

[Doctor///M]

This thread wasn't meant to downplay the value of a PC Driving School experience. I've only heard good things. I however thought I'd bring this information to the forum for community knowledge.

Originally Posted by Jono2112

That is crap. You might as well join BMW CCA go to the HPDE events with your own car. At least you can buy insurance for your own car. I can't believe BMWs own lawyers allow that, waivers are not bullet proof and this still exposes them to liability.

I haven't been to an M Performance school, but I'd think a red flag will go up if they ask me for my insurance information. Truth be told, it's a lot more convenient for me to do DEs close to home with the admission cost of less than $400 per weekend, and CCA membership isn't needed. Just be sure to know that your maintenance goes way the hell up if you regularly track your new BMW. I do however enjoy being part of the CCA community for various reasons.

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I dont understand that BMW apparently sells m3's to people that cant drive....

Umm... I'd rather not go there.

Originally Posted by m3m3mr

How many people discover this only after they get to the performance center. BMW should be much more upfront about this absurd policy.

Up front, I agree. I wonder if we can get a hand on that waiver to see what the exclusions are. No PC liability for loss of life, no problem. Our liability for car damage, major problem!

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I dont understand that BMW apparently sells m3's to people that cant drive....

Not funny.

In the U.S., Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Ducati, Triumph, Harley-Davidson, [insert almost any motorcycle manufacturer here], and (yipes!) BMW will all sell motorcycles to someone who can't even ride one off the lot.

You wouldn't be laughing, either, if we lived in, say, Germany, where driving courses that cost four figures are required to even have a driver's license.

It's all relative. Don't blame a lack of training; blame the system for allowing the untrained to buy things they can't operate.

[bmwperson]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Not funny.

In the U.S., Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Ducati, Triumph, Harley-Davidson, [insert almost any motorcycle manufacturer here], and (yipes!) BMW will all sell motorcycles to someone who can't even ride one off the lot.

You wouldn't be laughing, either, if we lived in, say, Germany, where driving courses that cost four figures are required to even have a driver's license.

It's all relative. Don't blame a lack of training; blame the system for allowing the untrained to buy things they can't operate.

so you'd rather have another government agency running your life?

People are responsible for their own decisions, if someone is stupid enough then so be it. Cant save everybody from everything.

OP: I can tell you that my insurance company (farmers) covers you as long as the event isnt timed. HPDE for example qualifies.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by bmwperson

People are responsible for their own decisions, if someone is stupid enough then so be it. Cant save everybody from everything.

Precisely my point, as long as that stupidity doesn't endanger the lives of others. Thank you for backing it up!

[zx10guy]

This is crazy that BMW has this policy. I just got back from attending 3 days with California Superbike School at VIR. I lose count of how many years I've attended this event. But when the school was using Kawasaki ZX-6Rs, the maximum liability we as students would incur was $750 per day. The school moved to BMW S1000RR bikes and the maximum liability per day rose to $1250. At registration, you sign all the waivers and then provide a credit card. In the event you trash something, they use that credit card to get reimbursed.

I had one year where I did dump a ZX-6R. It was low speed but ended up causing about $600 in damage. I don't know if the school assumes the entire liability, BMW does, or a combination of both. But I would have expected something similar with the driving schools at the performance centers.

[GuidoK]

It's probably all because of that 1.5psi difference

[ShocknAwe]

How stupid. Their schools are absurdly expensive. They should cover the insurance in house. Was thinking about going to Spartanburg this fall for one to learn more. Nevermind. I'll rent a local instructor and go to Roebling instead.

[buddalun]

Thank you OP for sharing this.

[lemetier]

This is the norm, not an exception to. Every private driving school requires participants to be appropriately licensed and insured as required by the applicable laws of the venue location and the venue's liable entities. Unless something has changed recently, the waiver includes an option to purchase a reduced liability limit. Incidents rarely occur at these types of professionally organized events. As long as the student is not driving in a wreckless manner, the odds of an accident are slim. I did have one Porsche Driving Experience School at Sebring years ago and I was chief instructor for that day as I had arrived early for a weekend of BMWCCA HPDE and club races starting that afternoon. The program was follow the leader style, which I absolutely despise. My fears were realized on the last lap, and one participants arrogance cost 3 people their lives, and destroyed surviving family members as a result of millions in damages awarded from lawsuits. This incident made insurance coverage mandatory for all driving school programs.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by bmwperson

OP: I can tell you that my insurance company (farmers) covers you as long as the event isnt timed. HPDE for example qualifies.

This is not correct across the board by any means. We have a insurance regulated at the state level environment, so that supersedes what any insurance company may or may not want to do. Most all insurance companies have stopped covering driving events which occur on or at racetrack facility (and most assuredly those that are timed as you point out). In most all states, the required policy coverage now precludes that coverage also.

North Carolina was a hold out for many years for example. No insurance company is allowed to issue a policy that isn't boiler plate regulated, and for ages after companies stopped covering HPDE, etc, events, NC policies still did not allow such coverage to be excluded. That all changed 3 years ago, and now *all* policies in NC specifically exclude coverage for any event at a racetrack facility (even a driving event that doesn't specifically occur on the track) for all collision, comprehensive and essentially all liability coverage. You are only allowed the minimum level of liability coverage in such an event ($32k), and no umbrella liability policy will be activated, so they aren't useful either. Note that the policy language is such that even if you incur a liability event in the paddock (i.e. back over a person or something), you are not covered at the normal rates (only the reduced $32k level).

Other states have similar regulations, so it's very important that everyone carefully read their latest policy statement and keep up with what is happening at their state level regarding insurance coverage.

Given how waivers have been challenged (and won against) in court regarding HPDE loss of life, everyone should understand that in the worst case scenario, worrying about coverage for your own car (which is all that the track day insurance policies cover) can be a very small sum versus the potential liability claim.

By the way, this "waiver" at the PC was like that 14+ years ago when I did PC delivery of my E39 there. It's nothing new. Whether in the worst case scenario it would standup in court is another question however.

[Doctor///M]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

This is not correct across the board by any means. We have a insurance regulated at the state level environment, so that supersedes what any insurance company may or may not want to do. Most all insurance companies have stopped covering driving events which occur on or at racetrack facility (and most assuredly those that are timed as you point out). In most all states, the required policy coverage now precludes that coverage also.

North Carolina was a hold out for many years for example. No insurance company is allowed to issue a policy that isn't boiler plate regulated, and for ages after companies stopped covering HPDE, etc, events, NC policies still did not allow such coverage to be excluded. That all changed 3 years ago, and now *all* policies in NC specifically exclude coverage for any event at a racetrack facility (even a driving event that doesn't specifically occur on the track) for all collision, comprehensive and essentially all liability coverage. You are only allowed the minimum level of liability coverage in such an event ($32k), and no umbrella liability policy will be activated, so they aren't useful either. Note that the policy language is such that even if you incur a liability event in the paddock (i.e. back over a person or something), you are not covered at the normal rates (only the reduced $32k level).

Other states have similar regulations, so it's very important that everyone carefully read their latest policy statement and keep up with what is happening at their state level regarding insurance coverage.

Given how waivers have been challenged (and won against) in court regarding HPDE loss of life, everyone should understand that in the worst case scenario, worrying about coverage for your own car (which is all that the track day insurance policies cover) can be a very small sum versus the potential liability claim.

By the way, this "waiver" at the PC was like that 14+ years ago when I did PC delivery of my E39 there. It's nothing new. Whether in the worst case scenario it would standup in court is another question however.

Good advice here about what is assumed vs. what should not be assumed and properly reviewed.

[Zeroblade]

Frankly, stuff like this I expect to be the norm. I don't think BMW would let someone slide for crashing their cars and agree they aren't up front about it. Especially for the Ultimate Driving Events they host every now and then which should have a way higher likelyhood someone will crash. The Street Drives have the highest chance someone will act the fool and crash. Makes me wonder if this is the reason they aren't hosting it this year. Otherwise though they are really good at maintaining safety so it is slim.

[CSBM5]

One way BMW limits the odds of a wreck at their schools is by mandating that DSC stays on. Students who turn it off (immediately obvious by observation of the car) are reprimanded as it will not be tolerated. The only place DSC is allowed off is on the skidpads (the concrete one and the asphalt one where the "rat race" is held) as the speeds are low and ability to hit anything is essentially zero.

I've always advised people that learning to drive a DSC/nanny controlled car can potentially teach very poor driving skills since you're not actually driving the car but having throttle pulled, etc, to prevent what it thinks is a bad decision. It should only something that pure novices in a powerful car begin with under the proper instruction prior to learning how to actually handle the real car. This is particularly true of beginning/intermediate students who have never autocrossed before nor had any car control experience.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

One way BMW limits the odds of a wreck at their schools is by mandating that DSC stays on. Students who turn it off (immediately obvious by observation of the car) are reprimanded as it will not be tolerated. The only place DSC is allowed off is on the skidpads (the concrete one and the asphalt one where the "rat race" is held) as the speeds are low and ability to hit anything is essentially zero.

I've always advised people that learning to drive a DSC/nanny controlled car can potentially teach very poor driving skills since you're not actually driving the car but having throttle pulled, etc, to prevent what it thinks is a bad decision. It should only something that pure novices in a powerful car begin with under the proper instruction prior to learning how to actually handle the real car. This is particularly true of beginning/intermediate students who have never autocrossed before nor had any car control experience.

Amen! And now that the nannies are becoming predictive rather than reactive, there is the safety margin that remains intact without degrading performance. If the stability control is intervening, the car is being pushed beyond its limits. That incident at Sebring was due to the student deactivating ESP and lifted (in a 996) 3/4 of the way through turn 6. First impact was at 136mph glancing blow with the first preceding car, second was at 122mph with the car 3 positions forward which severed the front off (along with the lower half the driver), before disintegrating on impact with the Crash barrier entering the safety pen that sent chunks flying and a corner worker was hit with debris.

[Fast4d]

what if the engine blows while you're on track? are you on the hook for that?

[FogCityM3]

Went to the M school a few years back and in no way did they make this known up-front. I think all were under the impression that their own insurance covered car damage. Is it different for the South Carolina school (was actually former Skip Barber program), or did their policy change?

[Doctor///M]

Originally Posted by Fast4d

what if the engine blows while you're on track? are you on the hook for that?

That's why all cars are equipped with DCT.