[Law]

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Frank van Meel receives an interview at the Detroit Auto Show.

He promises to stick to "classic values", recognizes motor sport as "pre-requisite number one", will build manual transmissions as long as people buy them, and says that a FWD M-car is "out of the question."

These are exciting promises, but those of us who have followed BMW M through the years remember that M, for a time, was resolutely against turbocharging and AWD, and we all know where that went.

It'll be interesting to see where BMW M goes in the future.

CAR DESIGN IS SHIFTING, BUT BMW M’S PRESIDENT STILL BELIEVES IN ‘CLASSIC VALUES’
By Stephen Edelstein — January 25, 2017 9:00 AM



BMW used the 2017 Detroit Auto Show to unveil its new 5 Series sedan, including a first-ever M550i xDrive performance model that bridges the gap between the standard 5 Series and the legendary M5.

It’s the latest stage of the evolution of BMW M, the automaker’s performance division. M started out building limited numbers of performance cars, but its practices have changed as the BMW lineup has grown and diversified, and new technologies have altered car design.

Digital Trends spoke to Frank van Meel, president of BMW M, in Detroit to discuss the M550i, and how M tries to stay true to its guiding philosophy in a shifting automotive landscape.

Digital Trends: BMW is debuting the 2018 M550i xDrive here in Detroit, the first M Performance version of the 5 Series. What was the purpose of adding this model, and can we expect more M Performance models in the future?

Frank van Meel: Obviously in the past, the gap between the series-production cars and the pure M vehicles was quite big, and there was a huge demand from customers for improved vehicle dynamics, but at the same time with a very good balance toward uncompromised everyday usability. So people were looking for something more in between, say, the top-of-the-line model, with injected M DNA, but really with a different balance. Not the pure M motor sports balance, but more toward everyday usability.



Of course there will also be more M Performance models in the future, and also with the M brand, you saw special models, you saw competition models with M3, M4, you saw the M4 GTS, and also the M2 as a completely new segment. So we’re also expanding there, our classic M business, of course not as strong as the M Performance, because with M we stick to our classic values, the philosophy of M. It’s all about racing, it’s all about precision, dynamics, agility, so you can’t make a pure M out of each and every vehicle.

Traditionally, BMW M hasn’t done an M version of every series BMW model. You’re saying that will continue?

That will continue. We’re not making an M for the sake of making an M out of each and every product line.

On the lower end of the lineup, BMW is starting to embrace front-wheel drive platforms. Would that be an area you would expand into, or would that continue to be off limits?

We’ve got a three-step approach if we look into product lines. Of course we always look at the M Sport packages, then the next step would be to look at the M Performance models, and the final step of course would be to look at the pure M [models]. I think with front-wheel-driven cars, a pure M is out of the question.

Presumably one new M model that is coming would be a new M5. When might we see that, and is there anything you can say about it right now?

Not yet, unfortunately.

You were able to launch the M550i with the start of the new 5 Series lineup. How closely do you work with the rest of BMW in developing the new M models?

Of course we have to work very, very closely. If you are in the early stages of development, there are some, let’s say, timeframes where the plants are building pre-production cars, and we have to be included in these pre-production car slots. Also we had to work closely with [BMW] AG to make the M Performance models available at SOP [start of production].

Cars have gotten a lot more complex over the past few years. They’ve gotten bigger, and added more convenience and technology features. Do you find that it is more difficult to create M models based on these newer cars?

No, as a matter of fact for us it’s a happy coincidence that it’s all available. We offer all of the driver-assist systems that are available in the 5 Series in the M550i. There is no need to make a specific driver-assist system, because lane keeping [assist] is lane keeping. So for us, it’s very good to have these base technologies available for M as well.

So you think it’s good to keep all of these extra features on a performance-focused car?

For the 5 Series and the 7 Series definitely, because those are segments where the customers expect and want to have these [features] also in their M vehicles, so there’s no way around that. In addition to that we are working—for the pure M vehicles—on track-focused functions as well, like the M Laptimer app, the M driver’s app, and the GoPro app that we introduced with the M2 last year.

Will we see more connected features like those in the future?

We will see those features on more M cars, because they are newly introduced right now, and of course we are always working on specific race technology features that might find their way into series production as well.

Speaking of racing, how important is motor sports to what you do?

It’s our heritage, it’s where we came from, where we started. For us that is pre-requisite number one.

How do you transition motor sports activities or motor sports experiences into production cars?

Well first I think it’s the same philosophy, because motor sports is all about “precision, dynamics, agility,” and that’s the same with M. So if you translate that to vehicle dynamics, so if you want to steer somewhere, you want to be very precise, you want to have very good feedback. So everything that a race driver tells you that he wants to get out of a race car is the same that we want out of an M vehicle.

Of course there’s also a lot of cooperation with the racing teams. Like for instance with the M6 GT3. It uses of course the base cage of the M6, but also uses the base engine, even though they had to reduce [the] power of the M6 engine because it was too strong for the balance of performance [rules meant to ensure competitiveness] of racing.

In the M6, we go up to 600 horsepower. Due to balance of performance, that was too strong for competitive reasons. So [it was] pushed down to about 540 hp, but it’s the M6 engine that’s in the car. Which is also good for the race teams that buy the cars, because maintenance costs are very low, and the engine is very reliable as well.

Do you think BMW M will continue to offer cars with manual transmissions? How long term do you think that will remain an option?

Well, there are two ways of looking at manual transmissions. One is the engineering standpoint, which says it doesn’t really make sense. Even though it is lighter, it is slower, and the automated gearboxes have a better fuel consumption.

So from an engineering standpoint, it does not make real sense. On the other hand, there’s this emotional thing. We still have a relevant amount of people that are wanting to drive a manual, especially on M2, M3, M4, especially in the U.S., but also worldwide. On the M2 we have a worldwide take rate for manual transmissions of about 20 percent, which is a lot. As long as the demand is there, we will stick to the manual gearboxes.

We see strong shifts in the demand for manual gearboxes. In the M3 and M4, it went down from generation to generation to where it is right now, between 15 and 20 percent. It used to be over 50. So it’s going down, but now it’s stable. In the M5 and M6 it went down to almost zero, so we had to take the manual out because there was no demand whatsoever. But the answer is that as long as there’s a strong demand for manual gearboxes, we will try and have them available in our cars.

What about plug-in hybrid and all-electric powertrains? Do you see those as possibilities in the future?

In the end, all cars will be electric, including the M vehicles. The question is only when that is going to happen. If you take a short glimpse into electro-mobility today, you see that you have to put a lot of weight into the car to make that happen. The battery is very heavy, the e-motors, the control units, and so on.

So coming from a motor sports perspective, where absolute weight and power-to-weight performance is key, it is still very difficult to make that happen right now. But we see that progress is being made with Project i (BMW’s electric-car division) regarding cell technology, performance, weight. So, we’re in close contact, and time will tell.

As soon as it is possible to make a real M following the M philosophy—and it’s not about technology, it’s more about philosophy—to make that possible with electrified drivetrains, of course that is an option for M.

Source: digitaltrends.com

[mkoesel]

I would point out that a FWD M vehicle was never really expected to begin with.

However, an AWD performance vehicle built on a FWD platform is a different animal, and this is what most of us would expect from M Division if they were do a UKL based M product. Van Meel wasn't asked about that specifically, and as a result his answer did not address that possibility either.

Not that I think a proper M vehicle based on the UKL platform is necessarily coming, mind you. I am just saying that it is still very much a possibility in the not-so-distant future.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

I would point out that a FWD M vehicle was never really expected to begin with.

However, an AWD performance vehicle built on a FWD platform is a different animal, and this is what most of us would expect from M Division

This would be a radical departure from existing XDrive which is primarily RWD focused

This would fundamentally go against everything that BMW has done to date and is one of the things that distinguishes it as the "Ultimate Driving Machine".

Quite frankly such a radical departure would alienate a large % of loyal repeat customers.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by jpnh

This would be a radical departure from existing XDrive which is primarily RWD focused

It doesn't have to be. I point to the Mistubishi EVO IX as an example of what type of AWD performance car can be built around a FWD economy car (with a transverse engine).

But even if not, the Audi TT RS and RS3 for example, have a cult following despite their FWD-biased Haldex AWD (which, BTW, has gotten another notch better in the newest iterations of these cars).

And furthermore, DCT transmissions, SUVs (with AWD and with planetary transmissions using a torque converter), and soon, an AWD sedan with no manual option at all, are also departures for M Division too. They happened (or will soon) and people are still buying.

Quite frankly such a radical departure would alienate a large % of loyal repeat customers.

Some, yes, just like other M products have. But there would also be a contingent of enthusiasts who are just as happy to have AWD. Plus, those not happy with the UKL M can move up to an M3/M4, or perhaps even an X3/X4 M, all of which will remain on CLAR and the former may very well remain RWD-only for the next generation too (but even that's not known for sure yet either).

Think about this for a moment: In a few years, Mercedes and Audi will be onto their second generation GLA45 and Q3 RS. These vehicles sit atop the performance pyramid in the very swiftly growing entry level luxury SUV market. Right now, BMW has no competing X1 (nor X2). Soon BMW will offer M Performance versions of that pair of SUVs, but those will not have the halo effect of a proper M vehicle. And we know that the X1 is on UKL for good - it's not going back. Same with the X2. So, does BMW M simply sit out of that race forever? Not a chance. They'll have an answer eventually. And once they do, the same drivetrain can easily be reused in a UKL passenger car.

[jpnh]

Ummmmm yea.....moving from primarily RWD to FWD is in point of fact a radical change and BMW's focus on performance and RWD vehicles and lack of drive pollution in steering is what has distinguished them from Audi and others.

It certainly will lead to loss of BMW customers if there's really nothing to distinguish BMW from Audi or any number of other manufacturers

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by jpnh

Ummmmm yea.....moving from primarily RWD to FWD is in point of fact a radical change and BMW's focus on performance and RWD vehicles and lack of drive pollution in steering is what has distinguished them from Audi and others.

It certainly will lead to loss of BMW customers if there's really nothing to distinguish BMW from Audi or any number of other manufacturers

We're talking about one vehicle in the line-up.

BMW will lose near zero M3, M4, M5, M6, X3 M, X4 M, X5 M, X6M customers by adding a UKL-based M product. In fact, if that product were an X1 M or X2 M, there would almost surely be an overall sales increase. If they added a 1 Series M sedan, the same would likely result. Only if they outright replaced the M2 with a UKL counterpart would they lose some customers. But again, they might well gain just as many who would not have bought the M product otherwise to offset that loss.

To me the fact that there is a business case here is all but a slam dunk.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

We're talking about one vehicle in the line-up..

If you're talking about one vehicle then the cost to create a totally new drive train isnt particularly practical is it

This doesnt even include infrastructure in parts management, supply and training of techs

It goes against everything that BMW is currently doing with the modular design of engines

Ex: B series of engines

The only thing such a proposal says as far as I'm concerned is an attempt for BMW to out-Audi the VWAG

Besides, van Meel already said FWD M-car is "out of the question."

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by jpnh

If you're talking about one vehicle then the cost to create a totally new drive train isnt particularly practical is it

It didn't stop them from doing it with the existing M2.

This doesnt even include infrastructure in parts management, supply and training of techs

Again, same as for the M2 today.

It goes against everything that BMW is currently doing with the modular design of engines

Ex: B series of engines

Not if they base future M engines on that very family. And that is exactly what we should expect.

The only thing such a proposal says as far as I'm concerned is an attempt for BMW to out-Audi the VWAG

Not just Audi, Mercedes too. Both are in small performance vehicle segments that BMW currently isn't.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

It didn't stop them from doing it with the existing M2.



Again, same as for the M2 today.



Not if they base future M engines on that very family. And that is exactly what we should expect.



Not just Audi, Mercedes too. Both are in small performance vehicle segments that BMW currently isn't.

The simple fact of the matter is that applying an existing RWD biased Xdrive solution as an option to an M car is fundamentally different from doing something completely and totally different (FWD or FWD based AWD)

As a CUSTOMER. if I want an Audi then I'll buy an AUDI

BMW should in my opinion stick to what it does best and what its built a reputation for.....and based on van Meel's comments that appears to be exactly what BMW is GOING to do

they're never going to out-audi VWAG

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Law

Frank van Meel ... will build manual transmissions as long as people buy them.

That begs the question: How many people?

And isn't that question predicated on outside suppliers such as Getrag actually designing and making them, not BMW?

Never thought I'd see the day where a manual would be an extra-cost option over an auto ... but I do now if this isn't smokescreentalk.

[SCOTT26]

There is the proof in writing that there is no manual for the next generation M5.

I do not foresee the typical M. For the X1 and X2. But they will be offered as M Performance M35i models with standard xDrive and that will possibly include the UKL based Sporthatch. It will also be offered to Chinese customers in the 4dr 1er Sedan.

From all accounts, the first X3M is shaping up to brilliant in every respect and potentially as an SUV. It has the ability even take sales from its M3 brother.

[Law]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

That begs the question: How many people?

And isn't that question predicated on outside suppliers such as Getrag actually designing and making them, not BMW?

Never thought I'd see the day where a manual would be an extra-cost option over an auto ... but I do now if this isn't smokescreentalk.

Good question, but you're just moving up in the supply chain. If there is a market, BMW will want to supply, which means Getrag or ZF will want to supply BMW. If there is a market, why wouldn't they? Van Meel is basically saying as long as there is demand, it will be supplied. It doesn't matter where you look in the supply chain, the demand is ultimately generated by the consumer.

And also, manual transmissions for M-cars that can be configured with such, are "standard", not extra. On series BMWs, where MTs are offered, they are a "no-cost-option".

[c63er]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

There is the proof in writing that there is no manual for the next generation M5.

I do not foresee the typical M. For the X1 and X2. But they will be offered as M Performance M35i models with standard xDrive and that will possibly include the UKL based Sporthatch. It will also be offered to Chinese customers in the 4dr 1er Sedan.

From all accounts, the first X3M is shaping up to brilliant in every respect and potentially as an SUV. It has the ability even take sales from its M3 brother.

The x3m has the potential to be a king in its own right and would win back a lot of people if you do it right. Styling will be paramount in this segment, as that is the glaring Achilles heel for the competition right now. Also it must include Acc with stop and go which is missing from so many m cars. Couple that with killer handling and it will be something special.

Please do it right.

[c63er]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

That begs the question: How many people?

And isn't that question predicated on outside suppliers such as Getrag actually designing and making them, not BMW?

Never thought I'd see the day where a manual would be an extra-cost option over an auto ... but I do now if this isn't smokescreentalk.

Porsche basicly kissed the manual good bye laughing along the way, almost ridiculing the manual transmission.

Now all their truly special cars are manual or soon to be manual. Customers change and the manufacturers change with them. If this resurgence in driving enthusiast minded people works its way back to bmw the manual will be with us. For now it's clearly a minority so we should be thankful to just have the option, regardless of money. Because if they answer your question of "how many people" I think we all know deep down, right now there probably should not be a manual option.

So van meel is being realistic but also a smart politician. Let's see how the bmw fans evolve back over the next few years. If we can see the horrid m stripes on the kidney grill fad go away then we know we are going in the right direction.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

I do not foresee the typical M. For the X1 and X2.

Not this generation, no. Agree. But unless BMW wants to sit out of the segment indefinitely they will eventually.

But they will be offered as M Performance M35i models with standard xDrive and that will possibly include the UKL based Sporthatch. It will also be offered to Chinese customers in the 4dr 1er Sedan.

Those will be great products too, I'll bet. But they won't be sufficient to cover the top end of the high performance market just as the S3 is not interesting to someone who wants an RS3, nor would an SQ3 (which doesn't exist yet, but will next generation) work as a substitute for an RS Q3.

From all accounts, the first X3M is shaping up to brilliant in every respect and potentially as an SUV. It has the ability even take sales from its M3 brother.

I am absolutely convinced the X3 M and X4 M will be hugely popular vehicles, just as the X5 M and X6 M have been successful for BMW M. All the more reason then, to be convinced that BMW cannot ignore the market potential for an X1 M and X2 M. And those vehicles, as I say, will necessarily be based on UKL, and furthermore they will be powered by an I4 (unless BMW intends to build an I5 from their modular engine platform, which frankly would be awesome, but seems very unlikely).

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by jpnh

The simple fact of the matter is that applying an existing RWD biased Xdrive solution as an option to an M car is fundamentally different from doing something completely and totally different (FWD or FWD based AWD)

I agree with you. I am merely stating that ruling out a FWD M as Van Meel did, has absolutely no bearing on whether a UKL M will see the light of day eventually.

they're never going to out-audi VWAG

Ah, but they've already started to. Go drive an X1 and a Q3. I can't promise you will like the BMW better than the Audi, but I virtually guarantee you won't find the UKL X1 to be an objective failure against the Q3. Now subjectively you might despise the BMW for what it is, but the marketplace doesn't have nearly such dogmatic priorities.

BMW already leads Audi in AWD vehicle sales. As time goes on, more and more of BMW's passenger car models will be AWD-only like the new M550i. Someday, luxury RWD passenger cars will be as uncommon as RWD light trucks (SUVs).

[MalibuBimmer]

A decade ago BMW promised it would never go to turbocharging.

Where's my salt?

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Not this generation, no. Agree. But unless BMW wants to sit out of the segment indefinitely they will eventually.



Those will be great products too, I'll bet. But they won't be sufficient to cover the top end of the high performance market just as the S3 is not interesting to someone who wants an RS3, nor would a SQ3 (which doesn't exist yet, but will next generation) work as a substitute for an RS Q3.




I am absolutely convinced the X3 M and X4 M will be hugely popular vehicles, just as the X5 M and X6 M have been successful for BMW M. All the more reason then, to be convinced that BMW cannot ignore the market potential for an X1 M and X2 M. And those vehicles, as I say, will necessarily be based on UKL, and furthermore they will be powered by an I4 (unless BMW intends to build an I5 from their modular engine platform, which frankly would be awesome, but seems very unlikely).

It is possible the next generation X1/X2 could feature a full M programme. But with the M35i models it is true that they won't excell in the PS race against the Audi equivalent. But RS Q3 is a three star car at most sure it is fast but there is nothing to back it up with. The same goes for the new A5 there is no dynamic feedback when you drive through the corners. Its a typical trait loaded with gadgets some possibly unnecessary but they should not define it is a sporting car. The 4er is a better car if you like driving.

I think the M Performance X1 and X2 will be more suitable in terms of driver enhancement and performance for the time being. Should demands become greater for more performance then a full M programme can be considered.

[coo-pey]

Originally Posted by c63er

Because if they answer your question of "how many people" I think we all know deep down, right now there probably should not be a manual option.

I agree. I have not owned a manual in quite some time. Then a few days ago I saw a 128I in manual on craigslist and went and test drove it. Man, what a blast! I do miss being fully engaged in the car. My Z4C has the ZF19 6 auto in it and it is very on point and does allow me to flip though the gears, but my left foot is out of the game. Manual is total commitment.

With that being said, look at the designs of cars now. In my opinion, the focus is not on driving, but on being entertained with the gigantic screen being put in all manner of cars, not just BMW.

For me, and many of us here, driving is the entertainment. My Z4C has jack crap in in besides a radio to distract me, and it left off most of the time so I can hear the engine.

Perhaps there will be a resurgence of total engagement for driving, but it will be a small subset of drivers. This is why there is such a push for self driving cars. Many many folks only see a car as a tool. Nothing wrong with that, but it's a driving force which may keep the manuals in the back seat now.

[Alan l.]

BMW M was forced to go turbocharging or get left in the dust by its competitors. There is only so much horsepower/torque you can extract out of a NA motor and with tighter emissions regulations BMW like other companies had no choice.

If BMW stuck with NA then the same people complaining about turbocharging will complain "why does my M car have no torque?"

Alan

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Law

Good question, but you're just moving up in the supply chain. If there is a market, BMW will want to supply, which means Getrag or ZF will want to supply BMW. If there is a market, why wouldn't they? Van Meel is basically saying as long as there is demand, it will be supplied. It doesn't matter where you look in the supply chain, the demand is ultimately generated by the consumer.

[Also c63er ] And that's my point. If there's demand, maybe it will be met until a certain cost point is reached -- even with a mechanically more simple manual box. So where is the tipping point where the cost for BMW and a supplier to design, build, and supply a manual transmission for a model becomes ineffective (as opposed to cost effective)? Which leads me to my second point:

Originally Posted by Law

And also, manual transmissions for M-cars that can be configured with such, are "standard", not extra. On series BMWs, where MTs are offered, they are a "no-cost-option".

That is the case now. But as fewer and fewer drivers demand manuals, I can very easily see a company such as BMW adding a charge when each of those drivers check that manual box on the order form -- because that's one way to make something that's cost ineffective less so. Part of that cost is then passed along only to the consumers who want it.

[Law]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

[Also c63er ] And that's my point. If there's demand, maybe it will be met until a certain cost point is reached -- even with a mechanically more simple manual box. So where is the tipping point where the cost for BMW and a supplier to design, build, and supply a manual transmission for a model becomes ineffective (as opposed to cost effective)?

The answer to your question has been answered already.
As long as there is enough demand, it will be supplied.
Van Meel himself said that "in the M5 and M6 it [demand for manual trans.] went down to almost zero, so we had to take the manual out because there was no demand whatsoever."

Perhaps some data can help illustrate what is meant by "demand".
For the E60 M5, 6MT was offered exclusively for N.America.
Total # E60 M5 sold in NA: 9491
Total # 6MT: 1364
Percentage of MT: 14%
BMW carried over the 6MT option for the F10 M5, also exclusively N.America
Total # F10 M5 sold in NA: 8088
Total # 6MT: 577
Percentage of MT: 7%

Even with the low [relative to M3] manual take-rate of 14% on the E60 M5, BMW was still able to make a business case for the MT in the next gen. (F10 M5).
But with the F10 what we see is a 50% decline in demand down to 7% and now the MT has been eliminated from the M5.
At that point, the manual trans. offering could no longer be justified.

Originally Posted by Viffermike

That is the case now. But as fewer and fewer drivers demand manuals, I can very easily see a company such as BMW adding a charge when each of those drivers check that manual box on the order form -- because that's one way to make something that's cost ineffective less so. Part of that cost is then passed along only to the consumers who want it.

Not really, they'll just stop offering manuals at that point (like what they did with the E65 7-series, F10 550i 2014MY+, etc.).