[T Bone]

I know we have are going down the path where BMW is clamping down on tuning. Much of the discussion has been around MSD80 vs. MSD81.

I have an alternative theory. I remember reading an article where BMW is really going down the path of adopting Flexray and getting out of the legacy CAN buses. (I can't find the article....so this is from memory).

Just think of CANs as communication buses between different devices in a car, ECU, suspension, engine etc. These legacy CAN buses (PT-CAN, LO-CAN, F-CAN, D-CAN) don't meet the new demands for data for new cars. For example, EDC on the M cars need a lot of bandwidth and low latency to effectively do its job. Engine management also needs low latency + high bandwidth (this is a big knock on the piggybacks).

Furthermore, my understanding is the legacy buses are not compatible with each other and supporting multiple CAN buses in single car actually steals bandwidth and latency.

I believe Flexray was introduced with the X5 and is in full flight with the M3. If BMW is pushing Flexray for every car and are just phasing it in, the lack of the ability to communicate with the MSD81 makes sense.

To prove this theory, we only need to look at the new M3. If BMW is using Flexray for the main communication protocol then we can infer they are phasing Flexray in for the rest of the 3 series.

Doesn't Jim have a new M3 and a MSD80?? He can validate?

I also recall reading that the Infineon Tricore CPU has a nice Flexray interface they can activate with a running change for the ECU.....

So the thing I am trying to work out.... I wonder if the inability to talk to the MSD81 is collateral damage (for tuners) as a result of BMW moving to Flexray and the true Anti-tuning measures from BMW is Progman 29.2??

Thoughts? Any BMW Techs?

[e90AW335i]

time....

[smdandb2]

I can't say for sure...

Jim may or may not have told me at one point he had the M3 stuff done already...

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by smdandb2

I can't say for sure...

Jim may or may not have told me at one point he had the M3 stuff done already...

The big thing that we need to clarify if the counter measures are in the progman or the MSD81.

Also I believe there is a regular OBD2 port regardless of CAN / Flexray..... I am not sure if Jim is even trying to access the CAN / Flexray buses.

[slubu]

Originally Posted by smdandb2

I can't say for sure...

Jim may or may not have told me at one point he had the M3 stuff done already...

That would be fantastic, as then he can concentrate on the MSD81

[Calgary Agent]

Are the new M3's using Flexray? I was under the impression that the '08 X6 was the first BMW model to be fully utilizing Flexray .....

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by Calgary Agent

Are the new M3's using Flexray? I was under the impression that the '08 X6 was the first BMW model to be fully utilizing Flexray .....

I am pretty sure they started with the X5, then M3 and then rolling it in througout their whole product line.

[turbotko]

Yes, the E70 X5 was the first to use the flexray bus, and even then it was still just for the EDC setup on them. We were still using PT-CAN for powertrain communication. Flexray is the wave of the future though mainly for the reasons T-bone mentioned, flexray is so fast us technicians can't even scope it with the diagnostic equipment BMW gives us. A real time scope would be needed.

I know for sure that 29.2 has some anti tune measures in it, and haven't heard that the MSD81 was put into place for anti-tune reasons.

AFAIK, BMW is not using flexray bus for anything other than suspension systems right now, mainly systems that need to be very fast.

[Panoz]

Originally Posted by T Bone

I know we have are going down the path where BMW is clamping down on tuning. Much of the discussion has been around MSD80 vs. MSD81.

I have an alternative theory. I remember reading an article where BMW is really going down the path of adopting Flexray and getting out of the legacy CAN buses. (I can't find the article....so this is from memory).

Just think of CANs as communication buses between different devices in a car, ECU, suspension, engine etc. These legacy CAN buses (PT-CAN, LO-CAN, F-CAN, D-CAN) don't meet the new demands for data for new cars. For example, EDC on the M cars need a lot of bandwidth and low latency to effectively do its job. Engine management also needs low latency + high bandwidth (this is a big knock on the piggybacks).

Furthermore, my understanding is the legacy buses are not compatible with each other and supporting multiple CAN buses in single car actually steals bandwidth and latency.

I believe Flexray was introduced with the X5 and is in full flight with the M3. If BMW is pushing Flexray for every car and are just phasing it in, the lack of the ability to communicate with the MSD81 makes sense.

To prove this theory, we only need to look at the new M3. If BMW is using Flexray for the main communication protocol then we can infer they are phasing Flexray in for the rest of the 3 series.

Doesn't Jim have a new M3 and a MSD80?? He can validate?

I also recall reading that the Infineon Tricore CPU has a nice Flexray interface they can activate with a running change for the ECU.....

So the thing I am trying to work out.... I wonder if the inability to talk to the MSD81 is collateral damage (for tuners) as a result of BMW moving to Flexray and the true Anti-tuning measures from BMW is Progman 29.2??

Thoughts? Any BMW Techs?

You are a true BMW-Guru

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by Panoz

You are a true BMW-Guru

Originally Posted by turbotko

Yes, the E70 X5 was the first to use the flexray bus, and even then it was still just for the EDC setup on them. We were still using PT-CAN for powertrain communication. Flexray is the wave of the future though mainly for the reasons T-bone mentioned, flexray is so fast us technicians can't even scope it with the diagnostic equipment BMW gives us. A real time scope would be needed.

I know for sure that 29.2 has some anti tune measures in it, and haven't heard that the MSD81 was put into place for anti-tune reasons.

AFAIK, BMW is not using flexray bus for anything other than suspension systems right now, mainly systems that need to be very fast.

It really bothers me at a personal level when I don't understand something technical that I am interested in.... Call it OCD or whatever....

I actually spent most of last night reading more stuff on BMW and how they program their DMEs....

First some clarifications. We have been using Progman as the "code" that gets flashed into the DME but it would be more accurate to say that Progman is a Windows XP Embedded application that oversees other BMW program requirements.

It is also more accurate to use CIP (Code, Individualization, Programming) as the application that loads the binaries into the DME. So CIP 29.2 would be the revision that has the potential tuning counter-measure. For tuners to go through the "Front door", they would have to replicate the CIP funtion / application and encryption scheme.

I can also confirm that BMW has put an arbitrary limit of 14 flashes as per Jim's comments. The rationale behind this is that if you flash it 14 times, the hardware will no longer be compatible with the software. BMW, in fact, sets an "integration" target for hardware, if you don't have a certain revision number of hardware or newer, you will not be able to update the software in that particular module.

I am actually of the opinion now that the tuning countermeasures are in CIP 29.2 which means it can be loaded in the MSD80 and MSD81.

I think the recent churn about not being able to "flash" MSD81 is because of the CAN protocols and not because of any nefarious new encryption scheme. BMW dealers can flash MSD81 because they have a new Progman / CIP revision AND they have the new connection cable.

Still doing some research.

[sales@ESSTuning]

Just FYI:

I watched the E90 M3 get tuned live at Bimmerfest just fine and worked great.

Also, I've heard from multiple sources that the new M3 will be getting/has MSD81 as well.

[BMW///Motorsport]

Originally Posted by T Bone

It really bothers me at a personal level when I don't understand something technical that I am interested in.... Call it OCD or whatever....

I actually spent most of last night reading more stuff on BMW and how they program their DMEs....

First some clarifications. We have been using Progman as the "code" that gets flashed into the DME but it would be more accurate to say that Progman is a Windows XP Embedded application that oversees other BMW program requirements.

It is also more accurate to use CIP (Code, Individualization, Programming) as the application that loads the binaries into the DME. So CIP 29.2 would be the revision that has the potential tuning counter-measure. For tuners to go through the "Front door", they would have to replicate the CIP funtion / application and encryption scheme.

I can also confirm that BMW has put an arbitrary limit of 14 flashes as per Jim's comments. The rationale behind this is that if you flash it 14 times, the hardware will no longer be compatible with the software. BMW, in fact, sets an "integration" target for hardware, if you don't have a certain revision number of hardware or newer, you will not be able to update the software in that particular module.

I am actually of the opinion now that the tuning countermeasures are in CIP 29.2 which means it can be loaded in the MSD80 and MSD81.

I think the recent churn about not being able to "flash" MSD81 is because of the CAN protocols and not because of any nefarious new encryption scheme. BMW dealers can flash MSD81 because they have a new Progman / CIP revision AND they have the new connection cable.

Still doing some research.

You are the man TBone, this info is just what I was looking for. I hope to hear even more soon...

[hotrod2448]

Originally Posted by T Bone

It really bothers me at a personal level when I don't understand something technical that I am interested in.... Call it OCD or whatever....

I actually spent most of last night reading more stuff on BMW and how they program their DMEs....

First some clarifications. We have been using Progman as the "code" that gets flashed into the DME but it would be more accurate to say that Progman is a Windows XP Embedded application that oversees other BMW program requirements.

It is also more accurate to use CIP (Code, Individualization, Programming) as the application that loads the binaries into the DME. So CIP 29.2 would be the revision that has the potential tuning counter-measure. For tuners to go through the "Front door", they would have to replicate the CIP funtion / application and encryption scheme.

I can also confirm that BMW has put an arbitrary limit of 14 flashes as per Jim's comments. The rationale behind this is that if you flash it 14 times, the hardware will no longer be compatible with the software. BMW, in fact, sets an "integration" target for hardware, if you don't have a certain revision number of hardware or newer, you will not be able to update the software in that particular module.

I am actually of the opinion now that the tuning countermeasures are in CIP 29.2 which means it can be loaded in the MSD80 and MSD81.

I think the recent churn about not being able to "flash" MSD81 is because of the CAN protocols and not because of any nefarious new encryption scheme. BMW dealers can flash MSD81 because they have a new Progman / CIP revision AND they have the new connection cable.

Still doing some research.

So, 14 flashes and it's a paperweight if you can't reset the flash counter? That makes for a quick or expensive learning curve.

[Mattscott]

Originally Posted by hotrod2448

So, 14 flashes and it's a paperweight if you can't reset the flash counter? That makes for a quick or expensive learning curve.

I read in another thread that there is no flash counter and some ecus have been flashed over 1000 times

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by Mattscott

I read in another thread that there is no flash counter and some ecus have been flashed over 1000 times

They are 2 different things. Jim is speaking of some data field updates.

Flash means using the CIP program from BMW - limit of 14.

[Mattscott]

What about the flash counter?

To our knowledge, no BMW has ever been equipped with a “flash
counter” as are some Volkswagen/Audi Group vehicles. BMW ECUs
do have something called the UIF/AIF – which limits the number of
updates that can be applied to any single ECU. We do not touch this
structure and hence have flashed many ECUs over 1000 times.

Still, flashing your car – causing failures – then feigning ignorance is
the reason we are in the mess we are in w/ the N54. Your choices are
made of free will, and you should accept the consequences of your
choices.

from

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140697

[Calgary Agent]

Originally Posted by hotrod2448

So, 14 flashes and it's a paperweight if you can't reset the flash counter? That makes for a quick or expensive learning curve.

Unless I misunderstood what Jim Conforti said when he addressed the 14 flash limit of BMW ECU's, flashing with the SharkInjector does NOT toggle the flash counter.

[Mattscott]

Originally Posted by Calgary Agent

Unless I misunderstood what Jim Conforti said when he addressed the 14 flash limit of BMW ECU's, flashing with the SharkInjector does NOT toggle the flash counter.

+1 Thats what I was saying.

[Calgary Agent]

Originally Posted by Mattscott

+1 Thats what I was saying.

Yes .... unfortunately I was typing my response as you were posting yours

[hotrod2448]

Originally Posted by Mattscott

I read in another thread that there is no flash counter and some ecus have been flashed over 1000 times

I thought that sounded kind of unrealistic but, the way it was worded in that post I quoted that's what it sounded like.

[Mattscott]

Originally Posted by Calgary Agent

Yes .... unfortunately I was typing my response as you were posting yours

Lucky for me I have blazing fast fingers!!

Originally Posted by hotrod2448

I thought that sounded kind of unrealistic but, the way it was worded in that post I quoted that's what it sounded like.

Yeah 14 flashes I mean, even if you didn't want to fine tune it perfectly, thats only 7 dealer visits.

[Vegas_Sirk]

Sorry for my noob like answer/ question .... but let me get this right ...

MSD80 can not be turnned into MSD81 .... so if I have MSD80 and go into the dealership they cant update to MSD81 ... correct?

2nd the new code (the anti-tune measures) that is triggered that tells BMW you had some sorry of piggyback on the car is updated through 29.2 ? so that means even thou I have MSD80 on my car that sill can be loaded on. Correct?