[adrian1480]

There is no more pinch at the pump, instead it's become a full fledge punch, but what if there was a device out there which could save you up to sixty percent on your gas bill?

The Hydro-4000 installs to any vehicle, and runs on water, it costs about $1200. But the creators say given the amount of money you already spend on gas, it wouldn't take long before you made that money back.

"We estimate the average person would see savings in one year. With fuel prices going the way they are, today's oil market is $112 a barrel, prices are going to continue to go up, we have to find solutions to our big problem in the U.S.," says David Havanich. But does it work?

Click Here for More.

Click Here for the Items Website.

It's sold with the following hype:

* 20%- 60% reduction in fuel consumption!
* Reduces Global Warming!
* Improves power and performance of your vehicle!
* Zero pollutants!
* Distilled water fill-up is all that's needed to produce hydrogen!
* No Hydrogen stored under pressure, makes for safe systems!
* Increases the life of your engine!
* Cutting edge technology!
* Very affordable!
* Patent Pending!
* American Made!
* Distributors Wanted!

It also, for U.S. residents it qualifies for a 100% tax credit based on The Hydrogen Property Credit:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/prog...hp/in/TAX/US/0


Does anyone know if this thing really is legit? Does anyone have one? Seems awesome, but such things create a very fair level of skepticism, IMO.

What say ye?

[trueblue]

The theory is correct, the immediate results are believable. But, what I didn't see was any testing done on the added thermal stress to the engine.
This may work quite well on a NA engine, but with the already added stress as the result of forced induction, a hotter and leaner burn may not be such a good idea.

[Crazy Bimmer]

Wouldnt you need some type of tuning for that?

[adrian1480]

According to their website, a car wouldn't need to be tuned before installation.

[hotrod2448]

You know what they say about things that seem too good to be true...

[e.n335]

This sounds not logical at all, how should bruning the 15% wasted gas achieve 60% milage gains ? The energy you need to drive has to come from somewhere, and this is not water on our engines. Thats why a 400hp engine needs more fuel than a 200hp engine, based on the same technology. However, I hope I would be wrong in this case .

[e90AW335i]

See Mythbusters. They have tried this before and it doesn't work.

[TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management]

if this seeps hydrogen into the intake tract under cruise conditions the car will in fact pull back on its need for gasoline as its being displaced with hydrogen. ?IF ITS WORKING? using a simple OBD scanner you should be able to see short and long term fuel trims go negative as well as improvements in gas mileage... This is not a BS theory if the electrolysis device is up to snuff(look up Cracking Water on youtube) Hydrogen also has an octane rating of 130 so it will increase the octane of the gasoline as well.?IF ITS WORKING?

[e.n335]

When I install this, will I loose my warranty ? And will it work with ProgMan v29.2 ? .

[TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management]

Originally Posted by e.n335

This sounds not logical at all, how should bruning the 15% wasted gas achieve 60% milage gains ? The energy you need to drive has to come from somewhere, and this is not water on our engines. Thats why a 400hp engine needs more fuel than a 200hp engine, based on the same technology. However, I hope I would be wrong in this case .

any modern efi engine is usually happy with a 10% deviation in short and longterm fuel trims ie add in 10% of another fuel and the car will auto adjust at cruise...now the question is does this device create enough Hydrogen(more energy output from the hydrogen than the electric it takes in the electrolysis process?) to make a difference???

[adrian1480]

Originally Posted by e90AW335i

See Mythbusters. They have tried this before and it doesn't work.

"The basic problem is this: The device uses electricity produced by your car's alternator to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen. Does the energy it uses for electrolysis exceed the energy it saves by making your engine consume fuel more efficiently -- and is it, therefore, phony?

Depends on whom you ask. There's at least one trucking company that swears by hydrogen boosting. And in online forums, some people report getting better gas mileage after installing such devices (just as WPTV did).

But there's skepticism that drivers may have adjusted their driving styles after installing the hydrogen boost, and that the adjustment might be the true reason for the savings.

Many online point out that the Discovery Channel show "Mythbusters" once investigated hydrogen boosters and pronounced them busted: The booster device failed to produce much hydrogen at all, "Mythbusters" found.

But others criticize "Mythbusters'" methods there, and say that a more conventional test -- such as WVPT's -- would have proved that the thing works.

So, the question still seems up in the air. Havanich offers a 60-day money-back guarantee on the device, so if you're interested, you risk little by ordering it (you need to have it installed -- and, if necessary, removed -- by a mechanic).

I'm going to ask my bosses here at Salon to buy me a Hydro 4000 to review. If they go for it, I'll let you know whether it works. "

http://machinist.salon.com/blog/2008...ydro_4000_gas/

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by TTurboBullett

any modern efi engine is usually happy with a 10% deviation in short and longterm fuel trims ie add in 10% of another fuel and the car will auto adjust at cruise...now the question is does this device create enough Hydrogen to make a difference???

No, that is what Mythbusters tried and it doesn't.

Onto more important news, how is that new map?

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by TTurboBullett

any modern efi engine is usually happy with a 10% deviation in short and longterm fuel trims ie add in 10% of another fuel and the car will auto adjust at cruise...now the question is does this device create enough Hydrogen to make a difference???

They are talking about 60% ...

[TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management]

Originally Posted by e90AW335i

No, that is what Mythbusters tried and it doesn't.

Onto more important news, how is that new map?

should have been shipped out to u already

[adrian1480]

Originally Posted by e90AW335i

No, that is what Mythbusters tried and it doesn't.

Onto more important news, how is that new map?

people seem to think Mythbuster's test wasn't proper:

* They definitely got it wrong regarding using hydrogen on demand via electrolysis (Great Gas Conspiracy).

o First of all, from what little was shown on this episode, it appears that either they purchased bogus plans, or they made an error in the construction of the device. The few small bubbles I saw were atypical of such a device. You should see much more! I personally have built several different designs, all of which work far better. I've been able to produce up to 1 L/min of HHO gas, and I know of other researchers who have produced up to 5 L/min!

o Secondly, all of the other devices they were testing for improvement in gas mileage. The HHO generator, however, was tested to run the car entirely off of it. Although I think it may be possible to power a car entirely on HHO gas, to be a fair test, let's test the device under the same conditions, as a mileage booster.

+ NOTE: There are already many HHO boosters on the market which have been proven to improve gas mileage.

* Safety: They did prove that you can run an engine off of hydrogen gas, but did so in a very unsafe manner. There are several safety devices that should be included in a design before it is put into real use. These include:

o Gas pressure switch: This should be used to turn the power off to the device if the HHO gas pressure gets too high.

o Pressure relief valve: Should the pressure switch fail, a pressure relief valve can vent excessive HHO gas. The output of such a valve should be directed outside the engine compartment, well away from sources of ignition. Once in the atmosphere, hydrogen gas dissipates quickly.

o One way valve: Gas exiting the hydrogen producing unit should go through a one way valve, similar to a PCV valve to help prevent flashback from backfires, etc.

o Bubbler: After the one way valve, most researchers also recommend a bubbler. This is a container filled mostly with water through which the HHO gas is pumped. The outlet from the HHO generator is connected to the inlet of the bubbler. The inlet is attached to a tube going down to the bottom of the bubbler, under the water. An outlet tube is connected above the water level. This also protects against flashback:

+ If a backfire ignites the gas in the lines, the water in the bubbler should prevent it from going any further.

+ Additional protection can be provided by designing the top of the bubbler such that the top will pop off if excessive pressure builds up from a backfire. This will minimize damage that could occur.

+ One way valve: An one-way valve can be added after the bubbler for additional protection.

* Before they dismiss electrolysis as a viable fuel economy booster, they need to do a little more research.

o The single best source of information regarding alternative energy research that I've found is the "Practical Guide to Free Energy Devices". (In particular, study sections D6, D7, D15, D17.) This set of documents contains research papers, complete plans for some devices, as well as patent information on some devices and methods. Granted, some of the information seems to be bogus, but much of it is reproducible and empirically provable.

http://mythbusters-wiki.discovery.co...spiracy?t=anon

[TurboBullett@Ambient Thermal Management]

Originally Posted by e.n335

They are talking about 60% ...

Id need to take a look at energy yeild from hydrogen but 60% is... 0n the optomistic side.

[adrian1480]

^ their website and my OP says "20%-60%"

not just 60%.

[hotrod2448]

Well they're based in your home state. Go for a road trip to the place and see if they can convince you enough to buy one. Then report back.

[adrian1480]

tis tempting. 60-day moneyback guarantee adds to the temptation.

[BmwFanFL]

First, the energy available from combustion of hydrogen and oxygen is far less than the amount required for electrolysis. To add direct combustion power, you would have a serious net loss, as the generator would be strained by electricity and the car would need an electrolysis processor that was quite substantial in size/weight for real-time processing, or a continuous system limited by battery capacity and the safety of storing hydrogen gas.

The only benefit, IMO, might be changing the combustion dynamics to provide better reaction of the gasoline and ethanol in the standard fuel. This would likely require alteration in the core tuning of the engine and would most likely be a 5-15% effect, not 40-60% (given that internal combustion engines are reasonably efficient in their present form). I am not convinced even this smaller effect is viable.

Just my humble opinion -- snake oil -- ps, if this worked, we would simply convert water into hydrogen and oxygen, burn them for electricity, and power the world without oil. unfortunately, the first steps take far more energy than the latter, so its a drain, not a source of power.

[BrianUNC]

Probably works as well as the Tornado

[Mattscott]

Originally Posted by BrianUNC

Probably works as well as the Tornado

hahaha, the TORNADO!! Gives you .5-40MPG OVER STOCK!