04-11-2019, 09:40 AM | #1 |
First Lieutenant
334
Rep 354
Posts |
Limiting factor in manual transmissions?
The M3 pure, which will be the only M3 available in stick, will have about 20 to 25 horsepower less than it's automatic counterpart. I would like to know what exactly is the limiting factor in manual transmissions that BMW believes they need to do this. I read somewhere that BMW thinks that above 450 hp, manual cars suffer from degraded "shift feel," and that although American manufacturers have manual transmissions that are outfitted in high hp cars, BMW feels these transmissions/gearboxs feel heavy and clunky.
I've never driven a 500+ hp stick car like a Viper to know what they're talking about. What exactly is their concern? More than a decade ago Porsche, another German manufacturer, had a 605 hp Carrera GT that was available only in stick. Was the "shift feel" there shit too? Hard to believe it was. |
04-11-2019, 10:28 AM | #2 | |
Colonel
2199
Rep 2,559
Posts |
Quote:
Although it makes some sense that the manual will be limited to only the purist version it's not confirmed to be the case yet. This was one rumor that the troll brigade picked up on and basically got repeated so many times it is now considered fact. Unless there is new information I personally am not going to judge why it's tied to a particular model until I know the facts. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-11-2019, 10:52 AM | #3 |
Moderator
7523
Rep 19,368
Posts |
Every every product feature decision is - to one degree or another - subject to marketing considerations.
Looking for technical justification for product content is mostly a dead end game. You could relentlessly quest for any engineering-related motivation for a corporation not offering some feature, find absolutely nothing, victoriously declare that no limitations exist, and still be no closer to knowing what the product would/could/should look like in its final form than before you started. A big part of marketing is about telling stories - stories about why products are the way they are. And as we know from watching movies and TV, sometimes stories are totally true, sometimes they are merely based on true events, and sometimes they are totally made up. The one thing you can be pretty darn sure of is that if a product doesn't exist, it probably would not generate profit. At the very least, you can be sure that lots of smart people crunching through lots of data determined that the risk of such a product being unprofitable made it a poor case for further pursuit and investment. And on the other side of the coin, if a product does exist but performs like absolute crap in the marketplace, well, some of those people probably got fired. Unless the poor performance is due to shoddy craftsmanship, in which case maybe the engineers get canned and the marketing guys get to live on and tell more stories. |
04-11-2019, 12:15 PM | #4 | |
Lieutenant
576
Rep 584
Posts |
Quote:
I personally think it will be all marketing and a little tune sort of like MPPSK on a 340. It's so easy to do on a turbo car they'll just boost AT to make it look better than 6MT and then someone will figure out how to tune 6MT M3 to the same levels and beyond of AT M3. Bottom line I wouldn't worry about published HP if you really want a 6MT M3 just like I do. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-11-2019, 01:29 PM | #5 |
Colonel
1318
Rep 2,352
Posts |
The F10 M5 and F13 M6 were available with 423kw and 680nm with the 6MT.
However when the F13 M6 LCI happened and the figures changed to 441kw and 700nm for the Competition Package they didn't sell it with a 6MT any more. This is largely the same box that is in the F80 M3 of course as well. We know the X3M power spec is the same as what the G80 M3 will have, 375kw and 600nm. Well below the spec that BMW have made in the past with a manual.
__________________
SCOTT26 "So as an admirer of the M5 and a potential customer of an M5 Touring. I would run naked around the streets of Garching if they were to offer one."
|
Appreciate
1
RowanBuds1708.00 |
04-16-2019, 07:36 AM | #6 | |
First Lieutenant
334
Rep 354
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-16-2019, 07:45 AM | #7 |
First Lieutenant
334
Rep 354
Posts |
Very interesting. I did not know that. If indeed they restrict the M3 manual to a tuned down version, it's starting to sound like more and more of a marketing reason.
|
04-16-2019, 08:28 AM | #8 |
Lieutenant
576
Rep 584
Posts |
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-16-2019, 02:59 PM | #9 |
Private First Class
31
Rep 136
Posts |
I don't really care to be honest, my 6MT M4 pushing 600+ hp hasn't really given me any problems *knock on wood* and I expect to tune the next vehicle as well, these stock numbers really mean nothing to be honest. I'd honestly take a slightly detuned M3/4 any day if I could possibly have AWD AND a 6mt as well, nothing some ECU work couldn't fix
|
Appreciate
1
MT4life575.50 |
04-18-2019, 03:33 PM | #10 |
Colonel
2003
Rep 2,499
Posts |
A more realistic reason why they are doing it might be for emissions. It might be easier to reach a emissions figure with an auto. So with a manual, they might have to detune it to meet the same emissions standards. But I do have alternate theory of why they might be doing this.
My theory is that detuning the manual and extolling the virtues of an automatic gives a lot of car shoppers "an out" or an excuse to buy an automatic. I think there are a lot of people who are on the fence about buying a manual. Whether it's because they actually prefer an auto or they are getting older and don't want to deal with a clutch pedal. So if someone calls them out for buying an automatic, they simply have to say that their car has more power and the transmission shifts quicker. It gives an actual performance reason to buy the automatic. They are less likely to experience buyer's remorse for buying a lesser car. It does seem a bit ridiculous, but it is along the same lines of the printed clothes sizes being "optimistic." For all we know, these rumors are just to see how we'd react. They might even advertise lower power figures but then just put the same engine in. |
Appreciate
1
maelfyn156.50 |
04-19-2019, 03:16 PM | #11 | |
Colonel
1708
Rep 2,053
Posts |
Quote:
If this comes to pass, BMW have an open invitation to my checkbook.
__________________
Moved to the darkside: '23 718 GT4; 11-10-2022.
Le Mans Blue F80 - Munich 5-22-2015 / US 7-7-2015 / SOLD 9-17-2022 ED RecapArctic Grey G05 - Spartanburg 8-29-2019 X5 PCD Recap |
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-19-2019, 04:29 PM | #12 | ||
Colonel
2199
Rep 2,559
Posts |
Quote:
Latest insider info we have |
||
Appreciate
0
|
04-19-2019, 04:52 PM | #13 | ||
Captain
319
Rep 660
Posts |
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
Appreciate
1
RowanBuds1708.00 |
04-19-2019, 04:57 PM | #14 |
Captain
319
Rep 660
Posts |
My theory on why only the lower powered version will have manual is because on the Ring it ended up faster than the 8AT M-xdrive version (due to being much lighter).
BMW wants to sell more options, so they couldn't have that happening. |
04-19-2019, 06:24 PM | #15 | |
Colonel
2199
Rep 2,559
Posts |
Quote:
And to the above point yes the part where he says all combos are being tested but doesn't want to rule out that others will be available. Considering his accuracy of insider info I won't rule it out till he says they made a final decision |
|
Appreciate
0
|
04-19-2019, 10:37 PM | #17 | |
#savethemanuals
2446
Rep 1,981
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
06-04-2019, 07:16 AM | #18 | |
Law Enforcer
25200
Rep 22,306
Posts
Drives: '22 Chalk Gray Porsche C2S
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ..in your rearview!!!
|
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-04-2019, 07:59 AM | #19 | |
Moderator
7523
Rep 19,368
Posts |
Quote:
Let’s remember, too, that Porsche ended up coming out of this one better from the wear. As an immediate band-aid, they created the limited edition 911R with a version of the GT3’s 4L naturally aspirated offered exclusively with the MT which ended up fetching a tidy profit for their dealerships as I recall. Then, with that exercise having proved the demand was still there, they created another new model to follow-up - the GT3 Touring - which is in some ways the 911R by another name and remains the only way to get an MT in the GT3. We’ll never know if Porsche’s profit is higher now than it would have been if they’d simply kept the manual in the GT3 option list to begin with. And, it’s true that it would be unfortunate for us if BMW had to go through similar hoops, but either way, the key is managing risk. Obviously bigger bets have potential for bigger rewards, and sometimes, even with careful research, it become obvious you left money on the table. BMW, however, has a different set of products, customers, and market conditions to work with. Unfortunately, the latest rumors suggest even the “Pure” model may be in jeopardy, potentially leaving the manual transmission out of the M3/M4 party entirely. Hopefully that doesn’t happen. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-04-2019, 08:22 AM | #20 | |
never could compete with Lloyd Braun
5276
Rep 5,379
Posts |
Quote:
__________________
2022 G80 M3 6MT | Skyscraper Gray | Kyalami Orange
2018 F87 M2 6MT | Alpine White (sold) 2016 981 Cayman 6MT | Jet Black (sold) 2015 F80 M3 DCT | Tanzanite Blue | Gold Brown (sold) 2013 E92 M3 6MT | Mineral White | Fox Red/Black (sold) |
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-04-2019, 08:29 AM | #21 | |
Moderator
7523
Rep 19,368
Posts |
Quote:
At any rate, the game is still very different for BMW since they are not a boutique brand within one of the largest automotive conglomerates in the world like Porsche is within VAG. They are also up against a price ceiling in the very crowded, highly competitive luxury performance sedan market rather than being one of the few remaining games in town for high end sports cars which happen to stretch into supercar pricing territory. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
06-04-2019, 08:38 AM | #22 | |
Law Enforcer
25200
Rep 22,306
Posts
Drives: '22 Chalk Gray Porsche C2S
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ..in your rearview!!!
|
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
|
|