[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by chris719

I know you're probably going to scoff at that and say you and thousands of other people can hear the difference between product x and product y, but I looked deeply into this and performed my own blinded ABX testing on electronics.

An objectivist! Ha, well, yes, i'm more on the subjectivist side in that I'm a "measurements explain the ear's observation" Not the other way around kind of guy.

That said, I'd offer an in between view: if equipment sounds great to you and makes you happy go for it! If you need measurements to validate or invalidate the price or your happiness, get them! So maybe it doesn't have to be "BS" ... e.g., fidget spinners don't really do anything useful, but they do make people happy so why not?

I agree there's some in the industry with lots of marketing material with dubious assertions but then just about everything does. More, though, there are just a lot of great products out there.

E.g., Campfire Polaris - awesome IEM if you like EDM!
iFi XDSD - great little dac/amp w/ bluetooth
Monoprice USB C dac/amp stick, perfect for cell phones
Bottlehead has great tube amp kits you can make yourself!

And then there's Schiit, Drop, and Chi-Fi (SMSL, etc) who all have great stuff for ~$100.

Anyway, I try to buy from people I've actually met or at least had an extended conversation with and, in the audio world, that's surprisingly easy to do. Kinda unique that way. Can't say that with my car! But it makes me happy nevertheless

[Banana Hammock]

Huh?

[ASAP]

I've heard B&W Nautillus, higher end NHT, Monitor Audio, KEF speakers and a few others tied to Mcintosh Amps... yeah you can definitely hear the difference of a quality setup compared to something you get from Best Buy but....

That market is shrinking and shrinking year over year.... there are few audiophiles that exist in this generation as they all prefer a quick and easy setup... i.e. airpods, soundbars over quality setups etc etc. I am not really suprised to be honest if you simply look at the music that people listen to these days - pop, rap and electronic... for those types of music, a boomy speaker setup (club type) is more than sufficient and far cheaper.

[mecheng77]

The market is actually increasing again due to the lockdown.

I recently got back into it buying new amplification for my Paradigm studios.

I went with Anthem for my home theatre with room correction. And NAD for my basement 2.0 setup and both blew me away. I was skeptical how much an amp would make to the sound quality; boy I was wrong. The imaging and detail is amazing.

[Dagamus_NM]

I really try sometimes to be more into it, but most of my listening is while doing something else like working out, running etc.

For active listening, dust off records and power up the old 1200s which is increasingly rare these days. I have classical music flac files on an ibasso unit that I pair with my HD700s. I see people complain about these headphones but I like them. Much more comfortable for longer listening sessions than my HD600s. But honestly my momentum 2 headsets are the most comfortable, most convenient, and easiest to use. The sound quality is definitely less than the others, but for headphones I can use while running without a stupid cord or annoying things in my ears they check enough of the boxes.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by mecheng77

The market is actually increasing again due to the lockdown.

I recently got back into it buying new amplification for my Paradigm studios.

I went with Anthem for my home theatre with room correction. And NAD for my basement 2.0 setup and both blew me away. I was skeptical how much an amp would make to the sound quality; boy I was wrong. The imaging and detail is amazing.

The market is increasing to niche customers... macro wise it's still tiny... look at Best Buy as a dumb example... they used to have a higher end listening room, most people do not care about that anymore.

Most people also stream music which is the worst quality imaginable unless you have Tidal Masters or FLAC audio.

[mecheng77]

Originally Posted by ASAP

The market is increasing to niche customers... macro wise it's still tiny... look at Best Buy as a dumb example... they used to have a higher end listening room, most people do not care about that anymore.

Most people also stream music which is the worst quality imaginable unless you have Tidal Masters or FLAC audio.

Originally Posted by ASAP

The market is increasing to niche customers... macro wise it's still tiny... look at Best Buy as a dumb example... they used to have a higher end listening room, most people do not care about that anymore.

Most people also stream music which is the worst quality imaginable unless you have Tidal Masters or FLAC audio.

My hearing above 10k is shot and I don't notice huge differences between tidal and Apple Music. I do notice big differences in speakers and amps, mainly speakers of course

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by mecheng77

My hearing above 10k is shot and I don't notice huge differences between tidal and Apple Music. I do notice big differences in speakers and amps, mainly speakers of course

The key here is the equipment must be good enough for you to hear a difference, i.e, "the chain". If the chain isn't resolving enough, you won't be able to pick up the difference just like if you were looking through a dirty window

For me, I had been an audiophile in the 90s, but then fell out of it - I got back into it ~5 years ago after a search for a new pair of noise-cancelling (ANC) headphones for frequent business travel.

I just couldn't find a pair that worked since the noise cancelling cancelled the white noise, but left the main stuff I wanted cancelled: babies crying, high pitched laughter, silverware/glassware clinking, etc. Eventually this led me to the Bowers & Wilkins P7s, which don't have ANC, but passively isolate well and sounded GREAT! Perfect for movies and TV which is what I watch on a plane. Then one day I tried music on them - WHOA. Tracks sounded like they were brand new - I was hearing things in them I'd never heard before ... and since they were bluetooth with AptX, i did some experimenting and I could hear a difference with AptX, 10/10 in some testing I did. But, like you, I still couldn't really hear a difference with between 16/44 Tidal HiFi and 320 spotify.

Then I started buying "real" headphones: Mr Speakers, Hifiman, and the excellent Senn HD 600s. It was the last pair that really opened my eyes to what I'd been missing, so I bought a cheap Schiit DAC/amp stack (magni, modi) and suddenly the difference between Tidal HiFi and 320k apple or spotify was easily apparent. It's a deep rabbit hole, though, that's for sure!

Since then I've tried a lot of stuff, gone expensive, but I've paired back as I've learned you don't need to spend a lot to get a lot. You CAN spend a lot, but it's for the last 10% - you can get 90% there with budget equip and Tidal HiFi (most don't need anything more than CD quality, 16/44, which is tidal HiFi or amazon hifi, which is 4x the resolution of spotify/apple/youtube)

There's a ton of great headphone gear out there, just in the last 3 years: Senn HD650s and a Schiit dac/amp stack will run you <$500 and will bring the emotion back into music, and with that stuff any average person of any age can tell the difference between.

FWIW, these are my ZMF Atticus designed and handmade by this great guy Zach and his wife Bevin in Chicago. They're Manchurian Ash treated with the Shou-Sugi-Ban Japanese finishing technique (cellphone pic doesn't do them justice!) - since buying these I've become a superfan of the ZMF sound, but more of the craftsmanship, and I have a few pairs. But, like I said, you can get Senn HD600 (which I also have!) for super cheap and they'll get you most of the way there, maybe all of the way depending on how far one wants to go



FYI, headphones.com lets you return equip up to a year so it's not that hard to test stuff in your house.

[Dagamus_NM]

Originally Posted by Soul_Glo

Anyone know where Glenn Q NYC is? Did he change his user name? Would value his opinion on this.

He changed to Dog Faced Pony Soldier. He is probably nursing a hangover from celebrating Roger Stone's commutation.

[Dagamus_NM]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

FWIW, these are my ZMF Atticus designed and handmade by this great guy Zach and his wife Bevin in Chicago. They're Manchurian Ash treated with the Shou-Sugi-Ban Japanese finishing technique (cellphone pic doesn't do them justice!) - since buying these I've become a superfan of the ZMF sound, but more of the craftsmanship, and I have a few pairs. But, like I said, you can get Senn HD600 (which I also have!) for super cheap and they'll get you most of the way there, maybe all of the way depending on how far one wants to go



FYI, headphones.com lets you return equip up to a year so it's not that hard to test stuff in your house.

Those are dope. I have wanted a nice set of wooden cup headphones for a while, but have too many sets as it is. When my most recent set came in my girlfriend just looked at me and rolled her eyes without saying a word. LOL.

[mecheng77]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

The key here is the equipment must be good enough for you to hear a difference, i.e, "the chain". If the chain isn't resolving enough, you won't be able to pick up the difference just like if you were looking through a dirty window

For me, I had been an audiophile in the 90s, but then fell out of it - I got back into it ~5 years ago after a search for a new pair of noise-cancelling (ANC) headphones for frequent business travel.

I just couldn't find a pair that worked since the noise cancelling cancelled the white noise, but left the main stuff I wanted cancelled: babies crying, high pitched laughter, silverware/glassware clinking, etc. Eventually this led me to the Bowers & Wilkins P7s, which don't have ANC, but passively isolate well and sounded GREAT! Perfect for movies and TV which is what I watch on a plane. Then one day I tried music on them - WHOA. Tracks sounded like they were brand new - I was hearing things in them I'd never heard before ... and since they were bluetooth with AptX, i did some experimenting and I could hear a difference with AptX, 10/10 in some testing I did. But, like you, I still couldn't really hear a difference with between 16/44 Tidal HiFi and 320 spotify.

Then I started buying "real" headphones: Mr Speakers, Hifiman, and the excellent Senn HD 600s. It was the last pair that really opened my eyes to what I'd been missing, so I bought a cheap Schiit DAC/amp stack (magni, modi) and suddenly the difference between Tidal HiFi and 320k apple or spotify was easily apparent. It's a deep rabbit hole, though, that's for sure!

Since then I've tried a lot of stuff, gone expensive, but I've paired back as I've learned you don't need to spend a lot to get a lot. You CAN spend a lot, but it's for the last 10% - you can get 90% there with budget equip and Tidal HiFi (most don't need anything more than CD quality, 16/44, which is tidal HiFi or amazon hifi, which is 4x the resolution of spotify/apple/youtube)

There's a ton of great headphone gear out there, just in the last 3 years: Senn HD650s and a Schiit dac/amp stack will run you <$500 and will bring the emotion back into music, and with that stuff any average person of any age can tell the difference between.

FWIW, these are my ZMF Atticus designed and handmade by this great guy Zach and his wife Bevin in Chicago. They're Manchurian Ash treated with the Shou-Sugi-Ban Japanese finishing technique (cellphone pic doesn't do them justice!) - since buying these I've become a superfan of the ZMF sound, but more of the craftsmanship, and I have a few pairs. But, like I said, you can get Senn HD600 (which I also have!) for super cheap and they'll get you most of the way there, maybe all of the way depending on how far one wants to go



FYI, headphones.com lets you return equip up to a year so it's not that hard to test stuff in your house.

Originally Posted by GrussGott

The key here is the equipment must be good enough for you to hear a difference, i.e, "the chain". If the chain isn't resolving enough, you won't be able to pick up the difference just like if you were looking through a dirty window

For me, I had been an audiophile in the 90s, but then fell out of it - I got back into it ~5 years ago after a search for a new pair of noise-cancelling (ANC) headphones for frequent business travel.

I just couldn't find a pair that worked since the noise cancelling cancelled the white noise, but left the main stuff I wanted cancelled: babies crying, high pitched laughter, silverware/glassware clinking, etc. Eventually this led me to the Bowers & Wilkins P7s, which don't have ANC, but passively isolate well and sounded GREAT! Perfect for movies and TV which is what I watch on a plane. Then one day I tried music on them - WHOA. Tracks sounded like they were brand new - I was hearing things in them I'd never heard before ... and since they were bluetooth with AptX, i did some experimenting and I could hear a difference with AptX, 10/10 in some testing I did. But, like you, I still couldn't really hear a difference with between 16/44 Tidal HiFi and 320 spotify.

Then I started buying "real" headphones: Mr Speakers, Hifiman, and the excellent Senn HD 600s. It was the last pair that really opened my eyes to what I'd been missing, so I bought a cheap Schiit DAC/amp stack (magni, modi) and suddenly the difference between Tidal HiFi and 320k apple or spotify was easily apparent. It's a deep rabbit hole, though, that's for sure!

Since then I've tried a lot of stuff, gone expensive, but I've paired back as I've learned you don't need to spend a lot to get a lot. You CAN spend a lot, but it's for the last 10% - you can get 90% there with budget equip and Tidal HiFi (most don't need anything more than CD quality, 16/44, which is tidal HiFi or amazon hifi, which is 4x the resolution of spotify/apple/youtube)

There's a ton of great headphone gear out there, just in the last 3 years: Senn HD650s and a Schiit dac/amp stack will run you <$500 and will bring the emotion back into music, and with that stuff any average person of any age can tell the difference between.

FWIW, these are my ZMF Atticus designed and handmade by this great guy Zach and his wife Bevin in Chicago. They're Manchurian Ash treated with the Shou-Sugi-Ban Japanese finishing technique (cellphone pic doesn't do them justice!) - since buying these I've become a superfan of the ZMF sound, but more of the craftsmanship, and I have a few pairs. But, like I said, you can get Senn HD600 (which I also have!) for super cheap and they'll get you most of the way there, maybe all of the way depending on how far one wants to go

[img]

View post on imgur.com

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FYI, headphones.com lets you return equip up to a year so it's not that hard to test stuff in your house.

Lately B&w has been hit and miss, some of their new speakers have not measured that flat. I'm not into headphones but the PSBs I tried sounded really good.

I did very well on the tests shown on this website with the exception of the high frequency.

https://www.audiocheck.net/index.php

Download the Neil younge archives app it lets you switch between sampling rates and be honest if you notice massive differences

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by mecheng77

Lately B&w has been hit and miss, some of their new speakers have not measured that flat. I'm not into headphones but the PSBs I tried sounded really good.

I have some old PSB M4U2s! They do sound awesome! My issue is I primarily need closed-backs and so usually I'm all about passive isolation (IEMs are the best there, but I don't love things jammed in my ear canal).

I've tried a lot of high-res stuff, but ultimately Tidal HiFi is easiest, though I have ripped all my CDs to FLAC but honestly it's usually just easier to listen on Tidal (I've haven't gone so far as Rune, Audirvana, etc). I have done a ton of 320 / CD testing and I can tell almost 100% of time - i know this because my wife required an extensive test administered by her before agreeing to my budget

For me, a peaceful hour of music daily is awesome and valuable.

As for measurements ... that was my first post to chris719 - I'm not an objectivist so they don't really matter much to me. For example it's not that my M4 must be the fastest to 60mph and I must be able to blindly discern that I'm in a BMW, I just like the M4's price/function equation more than other vehicles. Einstein's rule that not everything that's important can be measured and all that.

I love putting on my ZMFs WAY more than my HD600s - so even if the HD600s were cheaper and sounded better I'd still take my ZMFs, they smell awesome!

[chris719]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

I have some old PSB M4U2s! They do sound awesome! My issue is I primarily need closed-backs and so usually I'm all about passive isolation (IEMs are the best there, but I don't love things jammed in my ear canal).

I've tried a lot of high-res stuff, but ultimately Tidal HiFi is easiest, though I have ripped all my CDs to FLAC but honestly it's usually just easier to listen on Tidal (I've haven't gone so far as Rune, Audirvana, etc). I have done a ton of 320 / CD testing and I can tell almost 100% of time - i know this because my wife required an extensive test administered by her before agreeing to my budget

For me, a peaceful hour of music daily is awesome and valuable.

As for measurements ... that was my first post to chris719 - I'm not an objectivist so they don't really matter much to me. For example it's not that my M4 must be the fastest to 60mph and I must be able to blindly discern that I'm in a BMW, I just like the M4's price/function equation more than other vehicles. Einstein's rule that not everything that's important can be measured and all that.

I love putting on my ZMFs WAY more than my HD600s - so even if the HD600s were cheaper and sounded better I'd still take my ZMFs, they smell awesome!

No arguments about the experience. I had Audio Technica ATH-W2002 40th anniversary edition a long time ago, I loved the wood/lacquer and the cute story behind it.

My observation is that where you land on the spectrum correlates with EE experience. I just want to know that I'm actually getting the best. My experience is that most Hi-Fi stuff is not. I strongly believe, based on testing, that everything that matters actually can be measured in audio (outside of the tangible).

I work outside of audio, and a lot of the stuff we do is more demanding than audio from an electronics standpoint. A lot of the "high-end" stuff is amateur hour and have obvious bad PCB layouts or designs that are susceptible to RF ingress. I would only buy from a few vendors that I feel like actually do excellent engineering work. I do recommend the Benchmark and RME products for stuff that's reasonably affordable.

Schiit.... I don't have much confidence in them. Their low-end stuff is decent given the price I guess. The Yggdrasil is a joke, though. There is no benefit to misusing the AD5791 DAC in an audio application. It has all kinds of issues when you try to use it for audio, which is why AD does not sell it for that purpose. I don't believe they are all that competent based on their history.

A lot of these vendors are plain liars. I was at CES in Vegas 10 years ago and met some engineers that work for a well known high-end cable manufacturer at the Venetian. We had drinks later, and the contempt they had for their own customers was unreal. The cables look nice, feel nice, and are high quality, but the story they sell is total bullshit.

Don't worry, I'm not out to convince anyone of anything . I've long ago accepted this is not possible.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by chris719

I work outside of audio, and a lot of the stuff we do is more demanding than audio from an electronics standpoint. A lot of the "high-end" stuff is amateur hour and have obvious bad PCB layouts or designs that are susceptible to RF ingress. I would only buy from a few vendors that I feel like actually do excellent engineering work. I do recommend the Benchmark and RME products for stuff that's reasonably affordable.

Well I started in computer engineering, but after about 5 years decided to migrate more into the business side so maybe that explains me!

As for audio products, I guess there has to be wars in all hobbies: manual vs dsg, rotor vs cylinders, bev vs ice. As for the Schiit guys, it's surprisingly easy to speak with them; I'd be very surprised if you walked away with your same opinion, but, again, all hobbies have their heroes!

[mecheng77]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

I have some old PSB M4U2s! They do sound awesome! My issue is I primarily need closed-backs and so usually I'm all about passive isolation (IEMs are the best there, but I don't love things jammed in my ear canal).

I've tried a lot of high-res stuff, but ultimately Tidal HiFi is easiest, though I have ripped all my CDs to FLAC but honestly it's usually just easier to listen on Tidal (I've haven't gone so far as Rune, Audirvana, etc). I have done a ton of 320 / CD testing and I can tell almost 100% of time - i know this because my wife required an extensive test administered by her before agreeing to my budget

For me, a peaceful hour of music daily is awesome and valuable.

As for measurements ... that was my first post to chris719 - I'm not an objectivist so they don't really matter much to me. For example it's not that my M4 must be the fastest to 60mph and I must be able to blindly discern that I'm in a BMW, I just like the M4's price/function equation more than other vehicles. Einstein's rule that not everything that's important can be measured and all that.

I love putting on my ZMFs WAY more than my HD600s - so even if the HD600s were cheaper and sounded better I'd still take my ZMFs, they smell awesome!

Originally Posted by GrussGott

I have some old PSB M4U2s! They do sound awesome! My issue is I primarily need closed-backs and so usually I'm all about passive isolation (IEMs are the best there, but I don't love things jammed in my ear canal).

I've tried a lot of high-res stuff, but ultimately Tidal HiFi is easiest, though I have ripped all my CDs to FLAC but honestly it's usually just easier to listen on Tidal (I've haven't gone so far as Rune, Audirvana, etc). I have done a ton of 320 / CD testing and I can tell almost 100% of time - i know this because my wife required an extensive test administered by her before agreeing to my budget

For me, a peaceful hour of music daily is awesome and valuable.

As for measurements ... that was my first post to chris719 - I'm not an objectivist so they don't really matter much to me. For example it's not that my M4 must be the fastest to 60mph and I must be able to blindly discern that I'm in a BMW, I just like the M4's price/function equation more than other vehicles. Einstein's rule that not everything that's important can be measured and all that.

I love putting on my ZMFs WAY more than my HD600s - so even if the HD600s were cheaper and sounded better I'd still take my ZMFs, they smell awesome!

Was there another thread somewhere?

I have higher end paradigms that measure perfectly flat and older monitor and performance series that have the fletcher Munson curve, they sound good too in a different way: they have energy and kick and boosted bass without being muddy is known to be preferable. The monitor series has the soft dome tweeter which has a nice sweet sound.

I try to buy amps that measure flat and clean. Audio science reviews is a good site

[chris719]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Well I started in computer engineering, but after about 5 years decided to migrate more into the business side so maybe that explains me!

As for audio products, I guess there has to be wars in all hobbies: manual vs dsg, rotor vs cylinders, bev vs ice. As for the Schiit guys, it's surprisingly easy to speak with them; I'd be very surprised if you walked away with your same opinion, but, again, all hobbies have their heroes!

Yeah, I've seen their posts on various fora. I'm not saying they are dumb, and I certainly admire their entrepreneurial spirit, but I don't agree with a lot of their design decisions. The name alone...

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by Soul_Glo

Dog Face Pony Soldier

You can't get hungover if you stay drunk.

This is very true.

I agree with most of what's been said... especially the advice to use your ears to choose equipment rather than reading specs with your eyes.

Another big piece of advice I have is to visit a true Hi-Fi specialist, and go there with an open mind. These people truly have a skill in matching equipment, and matching needs with your (monetary and space ) budget. Even as experienced as I am (audio engineer; and Hi-Fi pro since 1990), I still value the salespeople's opinions. They're in that position because they love music and hifi gear; and they literally listen to stuff all day everyday. They're usually all-too happy to "chef up" a great setup designed specifically around all the moving parts impacting the decision. If anyone from VA to ME wants advice on finding a good Hi-Fi specialist, PM me.

Last piece of advice is to buy as much KEF as possible.

[kscarrol]

I have NAD for both my interior and exterior sound. While not an expert by any means, I went to a small local shop for their expertise and it was well worth!

[mecheng77]

Originally Posted by kscarrol

I have NAD for both my interior and exterior sound. While not an expert by any means, I went to a small local shop for their expertise and it was well worth!

Originally Posted by kscarrol

I have NAD for both my interior and exterior sound. While not an expert by any means, I went to a small local shop for their expertise and it was well worth!

NAD is great sounding. It blew away my Denon and Yamaha receivers

[zx10guy]

What's usually missing in these types of discussions is one of the most important things that people time and time neglect. The room acoustics. Until you experience a room with proper acoustical treatments along with ensuring the speakers are optimally placed, you definitely don't know what you're missing. Addressing the room can turn mediocre speakers into something much more.

When I built out my dedicated A/V room, I made sure I addressed the room acoustics during the build.

[Nuckle]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

What's usually missing in these types of discussions is one of the most important things that people time and time neglect. The room acoustics. Until you experience a room with proper acoustical treatments along with ensuring the speakers are optimally placed, you definitely don't know what you're missing. Addressing the room can turn mediocre speakers into something much more.

When I built out my dedicated A/V room, I made sure I addressed the room acoustics during the build.

Really solid advice here.

The space I have is the space I have so I designed my setup based on the space. Once installed going back and addressing every unwanted vibration, tuning and adjusting from there turned it into awesome. Same with my first high end boat system. I went all in on it and it was not good until I put in long hours on dampening or eliminating unwanted sounds in the environment. I don't claim to have nearly the investment in any of my audio components as some of you but I know what I like and like what I have.

[mecheng77]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

What's usually missing in these types of discussions is one of the most important things that people time and time neglect. The room acoustics. Until you experience a room with proper acoustical treatments along with ensuring the speakers are optimally placed, you definitely don't know what you're missing. Addressing the room can turn mediocre speakers into something much more.

When I built out my dedicated A/V room, I made sure I addressed the room acoustics during the build.

Originally Posted by zx10guy

What's usually missing in these types of discussions is one of the most important things that people time and time neglect. The room acoustics. Until you experience a room with proper acoustical treatments along with ensuring the speakers are optimally placed, you definitely don't know what you're missing. Addressing the room can turn mediocre speakers into something much more.

When I built out my dedicated A/V room, I made sure I addressed the room acoustics during the build.

And the most important is speaker placement. I follow rule of 1/3, Dolby and do corrections with arc. Just using everyday materials helps with room treatment: rugs and bookshelf. No matter what you need room correction: Arc anthem works great. I do the manual sweeps for my speaker placement