[allinon72]

This post is going to come across as a mix of old man rant and first world problems, and I don’t mean it to be. Just curious of anyone shares my thoughts.

I’ve been a tinkerer from a young age, big into aftermarket parts, making the car/truck better, etc. I’ve owned 3 M cars over the course of 8 years, as well as several trucks and SUVs. I can’t leave anything alone.

But lately it seems like any modification for M cars is cost prohibitive. Pre-Covid and especially post-Covid. Everything is a couple grand minimum if you want quality. The used parts market has fallen off a cliff (especially on forums), making many modifications even harder to justify as you’re essentially stuck with the parts. To maintain resale, you’re essentially limited to bolt ons.

Then there’s the issue of how high the purchase prices have become on M cars themselves, and warranty implications in modifying. Complex nature of the vehicles.

Given all these factors, you have to be decently wealthy just to own an M car, much less modify and maintain it, which has me posing the question: has the M lineup gone too upmarket to make it a good choice for the garage wrencher?

[freakystyly]

Modding cars isn't supposed to make financial sense. Do what makes you happy, treat it as a hobby.

Also spending M car money in the first place means you have disposable money for mods, doesn't it?

[MJBO]

Your points cover a lot of vehicles, not just Ms.

Countless threads have shown that accounting for inflation, the current generation of M cars are no more expensive than their predecessors. At the same time, performance and features have increased significantly.

Wages not keeping pace is a separate issue, but that’s more likely to be an issue for people that couldn’t previously afford an M car.

Complexity is a sign of the times, in the pursuit of ever higher performance while adhering to increasingly stringent safety and environmental regulations.

[tracer bullet]

I've changed my cars and mods over the decades. I have a new Z4 and doubt I'll do hardly anything to it. Back when I had an Eclipse, watch out.

I think if you have the urge to tinker, try driving maybe a WRX, GR86, something like that. Consider coilovers, big brakes, wheels, turbo kit (GR86) or upgrades (WRX). If you drive one of the cars and think to yourself - hey, this is actually pretty sweet - get one and go nuts.

[pbonsalb]

I am a DIYer who has had several M cars and modified them all. I read and research and shop patiently and carefully. Have had a 99 M3 for almost 20 years that I first supercharged, then turbocharged and later added a built shortblock and then a fully worked head. Had an E90 M3 for 10 year that got a tune, meth injection, intake, underdrive pulley, full exhaust, carbon fiber driveshaft, 6 piston from calipers and larger rotors, Bilsteins and lowering springs, swaybars, wider and lighter wheels, etc. Have an F90 M5 with a tune, meth injection, intake, turbo manifold, full exhaust, springs, etc.

Definitely more and more complex. Good scan tool and some special tools needed.

[DanG]

Hmm. BMWDIY Guy would disagree with you. He has a YouTube channel with lots of mods on current and past M cars.

[BlkGS]

M Pro cars are better as "tuner cars" to me than full M. The whole point of modding cars to me has always been to take untapped potential and bring performance levels above cars costing a lot more. Full M cars are traditionally the "cars costing a lot more".

But no, American cars are by far the better choice for tuner cars. A mustang with the V8 is a 8k supercharger kit away from 800hp with better reliability than any M car. Hellcats were a pulley and tune from mid 800s. And those are just pretty basic builds, not even getting into full on built motors.

[wtwo3]

Adjusted for inflation, the current M3 isn't really any more expensive than an M3 from 15-20 years ago. So no, I don't think the M lineup has gone too upmarket. It's always been in this market. I know everyone loves to talk about how expensive these cars have gotten - but they follow the inflation curve pretty closely.

Depending on what aftermarket parts you're looking for, you can find pretty decent deals. Carbon Fiber bits - just stay away from OEM parts unless you've got money to burn. You can get great quality aftermarket CF from a reputable distributor. If you're talking tuning - I think the M3 is significantly cheaper (and the s58 with a lot more potential) to tune than comparable cars from say, Mercedes or Audi.

[tturedraider]

Assuming you are referring to mechanical modifications, which I think you are, it is absolutely too technical for virtually anyone other than the most advanced mechanic to modify, with the exception of computer tunes or specifically engineered straight bolt-ons.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Adjusted for inflation, the current M3 isn't really any more expensive than an M3 from 15-20 years ago. So no, I don't think the M lineup has gone too upmarket. It's always been in this market. I know everyone loves to talk about how expensive these cars have gotten - but they follow the inflation curve pretty closely.

That's not entirely fair.

While they may be following the government's inflation numbers, that's only half the story. The other half is that affordability is WAY WAY WAY down. So the threshold for affording an E46 or E92 M3 was way lower than what it is for a current M3.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

That's not entirely fair.

While they may be following the government's inflation numbers, that's only half the story. The other half is that affordability is WAY WAY WAY down. So the threshold for affording an E46 or E92 M3 was way lower than what it is for a current M3.

But which competitor isn't following this same trend?

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

But which competitor isn't following this same trend?

Does it matter?

Reality is, buyers have been pushed to used cars or down-market. People who would have bought an E46 M3 are today buying a Mustang GT, or a Golf R, or a GTI. I would bet that a large portion of people buying a new M3/M4 also bought new E46s and E92s , with few younger people that are new to them. Those few are also likely YouTubers

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Does it matter?

Reality is, buyers have been pushed to used cars or down-market. People who would have bought an E46 M3 are today buying a Mustang GT, or a Golf R, or a GTI. I would bet that a large portion of people buying a new M3/M4 also bought new E46s and E92s , with few younger people that are new to them. Those few are also likely YouTubers

Of course it matters.... BMW isn't a charitable organization. Pricing strategy is a combination of economics, market trends, and competition. Singling out BMW as getting more expensive... while literally the entire industry has as well... doesn't seem fair. The question was, is BMW going upmarket. I don't think they are - they're in the same market they always have been. More people are buying M cars now than they ever have in the past. So I'm not sure any of the logic holds true regarding people buying mustangs and golfs because of affordability concerns.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

Of course it matters.... BMW isn't a charitable organization. Pricing strategy is a combination of economics, market trends, and competition. Singling out BMW as getting more expensive... while literally the entire industry has as well... doesn't seem fair. The question was, is BMW going upmarket. I don't think they are - they're in the same market they always have been. More people are buying M cars now than they ever have in the past. So I'm not sure any of the logic holds true regarding people buying mustangs and golfs because of affordability concerns.

I guess it depends on what we mean by upmarket. They're still competing against the same cars for buyers. I would argue the income brackets of those buying them has gone up as well. Are there really more people buying M3/4 and M5? Or is X3M and X5M propping up the whole thing? I don't know, but based on what I see in FL, the SUVs are what M sells now, with a much smaller number of M4s, and virtually no M3s and M5s. M2s are in pretty decent volumes too.

Anyways, I think it's hard to argue that the full fat M is the choice for the owner who liked to modify their cars compared to the M Performance models. The M Performance models are like, nearly aimed squarely at people who will mod them. Plus, all the M Performance models are faster than the full Ms if you take the price difference and put that into mods.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I guess it depends on what we mean by upmarket. They're still competing against the same cars for buyers. I would argue the income brackets of those buying them has gone up as well. Are there really more people buying M3/4 and M5? Or is X3M and X5M propping up the whole thing? I don't know, but based on what I see in FL, the SUVs are what M sells now, with a much smaller number of M4s, and virtually no M3s and M5s. M2s are in pretty decent volumes too.

Anyways, I think it's hard to argue that the full fat M is the choice for the owner who liked to modify their cars compared to the M Performance models. The M Performance models are like, nearly aimed squarely at people who will mod them. Plus, all the M Performance models are faster than the full Ms if you take the price difference and put that into mods.

So a couple things here. Does it matter if it's M3/M5 vs X3M/X5M? The argument being made is that these cars are less affordable now... but the X3M and X5M aren't less expensive than their sedan counterparts. The other point I'll make is that, and I don't remember where exactly I saw this, but I recall reading that the G8X M3/M4 is on pace to be the best selling M3/M4 of all time.

As far as modifying cars go, I would anecdotally say that the M3/M4 have a higher rate of modded cars than the m340i/m440i. I've owned both - previously owned an m340i and currently own an M3, and I personally have been exposed to significantly more modding options with the M3. Hell if you ever peruse some of the websites which offer aftermarket parts, you're more likely to see parts dedicated to the M3/M4 than you are for the m340i/m440i.

Now if you're talking about which car is "faster" (in a straight line), sure you can mod the m-lite car to be faster than the srock M car with the price differential between the 2 cars, but I'd argue that's not what the M car is about anyway. The chassis tuning is far far superior in the M car and you feel that everytime you get behind the wheel. Furthermore when I have tried tracking the m340i, after a couple of hot laps it became susceptible to heat soak and the brakes were cooked. On the other hand the M3 handled a full day of tracking lap after lap without skipping a beat.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

But which competitor isn't following this same trend?

I don't think we agree too often, but you're spot-on in this thread. If anything, inflation has been underestimated so the cars are actually cheaper than they used to be while having more content. Wages have not really kept up so that is the real factor.

If someone want something to complain about, check out Porsche's price adjustments and margins.

[MJBO]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

That's not entirely fair.

While they may be following the government's inflation numbers, that's only half the story. The other half is that affordability is WAY WAY WAY down. So the threshold for affording an E46 or E92 M3 was way lower than what it is for a current M3.

I tend to think the people that could afford the E46/E9x/F8x generations of M3/M4 likely rode salaries upwards that kept them affordable as inflation rose.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by wtwo3

So a couple things here. Does it matter if it's M3/M5 vs X3M/X5M? The argument being made is that these cars are less affordable now... but the X3M and X5M aren't less expensive than their sedan counterparts. The other point I'll make is that, and I don't remember where exactly I saw this, but I recall reading that the G8X M3/M4 is on pace to be the best selling M3/M4 of all time.

As far as modifying cars go, I would anecdotally say that the M3/M4 have a higher rate of modded cars than the m340i/m440i. I've owned both - previously owned an m340i and currently own an M3, and I personally have been exposed to significantly more modding options with the M3. Hell if you ever peruse some of the websites which offer aftermarket parts, you're more likely to see parts dedicated to the M3/M4 than you are for the m340i/m440i.

Now if you're talking about which car is "faster" (in a straight line), sure you can mod the m-lite car to be faster than the srock M car with the price differential between the 2 cars, but I'd argue that's not what the M car is about anyway. The chassis tuning is far far superior in the M car and you feel that everytime you get behind the wheel. Furthermore when I have tried tracking the m340i, after a couple of hot laps it became susceptible to heat soak and the brakes were cooked. On the other hand the M3 handled a full day of tracking lap after lap without skipping a beat.

I don't know about sales volumes, maybe the beaver is the top selling M3/M4 generation. My point is more that the income of people buying these now aren't really tinkerers, they're leasers largely, and if they did any modifying, they're paying someone to do it.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, some people have more money than time, or no mechanical skills, or whatever. Just saying that a full on M is likely not the car.ofmchoice from someone who wants to tinker with the car.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by chris719

I don't think we agree too often, but you're spot-on in this thread. If anything, inflation has been underestimated so the cars are actually cheaper than they used to be while having more content. Wages have not really kept up so that is the real factor.

If someone want something to complain about, check out Porsche's price adjustments and margins.

Porsche basically has the attitude of "this is what it costs, if you can't afford it you're poor and we don't want you owning our car anyways". They're the Abercrombie and Fitch of car manufacturers. Frankly I'm surprised they haven't started putting a cover charge on getting into the dealership and a "no fat people" sign out front.

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I don't know about sales volumes, maybe the beaver is the top selling M3/M4 generation. My point is more that the income of people buying these now aren't really tinkerers, they're leasers largely, and if they did any modifying, they're paying someone to do it.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, some people have more money than time, or no mechanical skills, or whatever. Just saying that a full on M is likely not the car.ofmchoice from someone who wants to tinker with the car.

Perhaps in the M5/M8 world - I can't speak for that... but I can say for sure in the M2/M3/M4 worlds there's a LOT of tinkering happening, more so than the m-lite versions of those cars.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by allinon72

Has the M lineup gone too upmarket to make it a good choice for the garage wrencher?

Not sure where you've been, but the M-cars were always too upmarket for this sort of thing. Their initial purchase price, cost of mods, and finicky buyers never lent themselves to the modifying enthusiast. It's a big reason why I never considered one until the E46, and even then the car seemed heavy and sounded terrible, so I passed for an '05 STi and have zero regrets on that.

Having said that, I feel like a 2016 M2 with higher mileage that has been treated well could be a very fun platform without spending crazy money, you just have to be very selective with your mods, and buy them all used.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

. Having said that, I feel like a 2016 M2 with higher mileage that has been treated well could be a very fun platform without spending crazy money, you just have to be very selective with your mods, and buy them all used.

Agreed, but at the risk of starting up the M2 blood wars again, the OG M2 is really more like an M235is than a true M2. It's a tuned up version of the N55, with base car seats and all that kind of stuff. It kind of makes my point again, the M Lite cars are better for the tinkerer than the full M.