Procede Progressive Nitrous control: Dyno and Track testing

OpenFlash · 03-20-2010, 10:36 PM

Did this last night.

Running MS109 fuel, I started off with a modified Stg 1 map which made ~375whp on our 6MT test car. I did not start off with the usual Stg 3+ map that makes considerably more power. The idea behind running nitrous, as I see it, was to not have to squeeze out max power from the turbos. So the results below are no means a max power tune. The only thing the runs share in common is relative boost pressure (peak 12-13psi).

Throughout the course of the night, tested different jet sizes (starting with .18 and ending with .32 with many sizes along the way) and progressive control strategies. This involves different solenoid frequency/duration during nitrous onset to smooth the transition when nitrous engages. As well as how and when (with respect to RPM), the nitrous disables. You can see the progress below:

For the time being, I'm kept the activation RPM to 4000rpm. But this can be lowered a bit to 3000rpm or so. In the end, we ended up making an additional ~90whp while still keeping the turbos from working too hard. I did notice that the engine was far more responsive to increases in nozzle size at moderate power levels. Above 450whp, the incremental gains became harder to come by. Yes, it is possible to make another 20-30whp by simply using a larger nozzle but it would take considerably more nitrous to do it. It would appear that the bottleneck is in the exhaust side. And the only thing there are the turbine housings which, understandably, aren't suited to flow 550+bhp worth of exhaust flow.

But the cool part is not how much power it picked up, but how it picked it up and what safety precautions we have in place to keep everything running safely. And after that, we'll see how it did on the track when subjected to gear changes and various rates of RPM rise. Coming up next...

OpenFlash · 03-20-2010, 10:36 PM

Nitrous has a bad reputation. And it is somewhat undeserved. Nitrous itself isn't the dangerous monster that many think it is. Engine damage from sheer power loads are rare. Instead, the troublemaker is almost always caused by the nitrous control system and supporting tune.

Nitrous is nothing more than a compressed oxygen-rich liquid that is crammed into a high pressure tank and routed to the engine. The gateway device that keeps the nitrous from being injected into the engine is a large solenoid. This solenoid is controlled by either a computer/controller (at best) or a simple full throttle switch under your gas pedal (at absolute worst).

Once the nitrous is released into the engine, it quickly turns into gas and under goes a chemical reaction where the oxygen frees from the nitrogen. The nitrogen acts as a buffer gas to slow down the process as well as to absorb heat. The oxygen gets burned and turns into power. The end result is a more powerful bang and a reduction in intake charge temps through heat robbed from change of state from liquid to gas. This is not to be mistaken for a reduction in cylinder temps which is largely proportional with power output. These temps are high. And can get VERY high (like engine melting high) when nitrous is used for too long (heat builds up) or when not mixed with the correction proportion of fuel. Or when run with insufficient octane or with excessive ignition timing. The margin for safety is also considerably small with only a few things keeping a safe running engine from becoming a broken engine.

Typical rules of thumb when running nitrous:

-DO NOT to rely on the knock sensor. Because by the time the DME detects and retards timing, engine damage can already be induced. This means your ignition timing map should be proactive when it comes to avoiding knock. Not reactive.

-DO Run high octane fuel for larger nitrous induced power gains. If you are running a small shot that only picks up 15-30whp, octane isn't as critical as the reduction in charge temp goes a long way in reducing knock tendancy. Similar to installing an upgraded intercooler. For larger power gains, running race gas is cheap insurance.

-DO Keep AFR rich. Especially torwards the end of the run as this is where in-cylinder temps are the hottest. This is because heat is accumulated quicker than it is shed.

-DO NOT engine nitrous for more than 10 seconds at a time. This means nitrous is NOT a suitable power adder for those who are running the Texas mile or doing a top speed run on the Autobahn.

-DO NOT engine nitrous when the engine is cold. Engine needs to be fully up to temp with all tolerances within their optimal ranges. Or else excessive wear can occur.

-DO NOT spray nitrous when the throttle is closed or else it will back up and create a very o2 rich condition when the throttle opens up again. This can cause a lean run condition which is a no-no.

-DO NOT spray nitrous until AFR is stabilized. This is especially important when running a dry shot (ie, spraying nitrous alone and not a nitrous/fuel mixture). Spraying nitrous on an already lean-running engine will make it run even leaner. Even if it's just for a very short period of time (until the DME adjusts fuel trims). This may only take a fraction of a second. But for an engine that is spinning at 4000rpm (nearly 70 rotations per second), that is a painful eternity.

-DO NOT engine nitrous at a low engine speed as this can cause a situation where too much nitrous is sprayed onto an engine that isn't consuming air quickly enough. This can cause a nitrous backfire will, as we learned in Fast and the Furious, can blow your manifold off. As well as your diamond plated floorboard. From what I've heard at least.

-DO retard timing during the onset of nitrous. This will soften the initial torque impact as well greatly reduce the tendancy for the engine to knock during that engagement moment.

-DO flutter the solenoid during nitrous engagement. This will also soften the impact of the nitrous and give a little bit more time for the fuel system (which isn't pressurized to 1000psi like the nitrous bottle) to catch up.

-DO NOT engage nitrous while your 6AT is shifting. This will destroy your torque converter and result in shifting problems. Just ask Hotrod about his torque converter and overrev codes.

There is no one single control system that is capable of satisfying all these conditions. Until now. So here is the logic we've whipped up to make sure nitrous is engined only when its safe. And disengaged immediately when conditions aren't safe.

Befoe we go any further, I should state that the nitrous spray is not exactly triggered by the Procede. It is triggered by a button that you can mount anywhere. I put it on my steering wheel. The Procede enables the functionality of the trigger button. So that it only works when conditions are good. This also means that the user can simply keep the button pressed, drive the car, and let the Procede turn on/off the nitrous as the engine transitions from different conditions.

So, the Procede, which fortunately can read heaps of CAN data, will only allow the nitrous trigger to arm when:

- Engine is within the allowable operating CAN oil temp range (170F to 250F).
- Applied throttle is 100%
- Actual CAN throttle is over 75%. This means that the nitrous will flicker off when the actual throttle closes due to boost targetting or traction control intervention. Just triggering off of applied throttle is useless since it does not always reflace actual throttle.
- Methanol must be flowing at least 500ml/min (also read by the Procede)
- AFR must be richer than ~12.5:1
- Boost must be over 10psi (so that it doesn't trigger early during spool-up and create an overboost condition).
- The car is in a gear and NOT in the middle of a gearchange condition. Through CAN data, it detects this regardless of whether you shift at redline or at 4000rpm.
- CAN Ignition advance must be below 14 degrees of timing. This is to avoid engaging nitrous while the DME is in the middle of a calculated load transition. This means the DME doesn't have to react to the knock when it is avoided in the first place.

When ALL these conditions are met, ONLY then will the nitrous trigger be armed. And when arming is combined with the user input (button pressed) the nitrous will spray. Either all at once, or gradually over the next .5-1 second depending on what you want and how big of jet you are running.

Next up: How we control the fueling side of the equation

OpenFlash · 03-20-2010, 10:37 PM

Datalog of a 11.4@128mph pass

lamia2super · 03-20-2010, 10:43 PM

Irishace · 03-20-2010, 10:51 PM

Umm,sick, great work Shiv!

ridin135 · 03-20-2010, 10:57 PM

Shiv what are your thoughts about power increase with 14psi instead of 12?

TMR · 03-20-2010, 11:24 PM

This is awesome!!

OpenFlash · 03-20-2010, 11:42 PM

More tech posted above. And a LOT more to come

onesuperboi · 03-20-2010, 11:46 PM

Hahaha. Have you noticed the new thread for JB3 NOS? That was a quick reaction!

Seems kinda basic though...

OpenFlash · 03-20-2010, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesuperboi

Hahaha. Have you noticed the new thread for JB3 NOS? That was a quick reaction!

lol yeah. On further thought, I'll refrain from commenting on their "approach"

Shiv

forza1976 · 03-20-2010, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

lol yeah. The jb3 can't even retard ignition timing. They crack me up.

Shiv

Shiv, just a little off topic but will this firmware update possibly contain the dash boost readout? crossing fingers

OpenFlash · 03-20-2010, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by forza1976

Shiv, just a little off topic but will this firmware update possibly contain the dash boost readout? crossing fingers

Not quite yet. This next update release will involve progressive meth and nitrous control and infinitely adjustable mapping. The latter being a prerequisite for autotuning which will be the released shortly after that. A few CAN features need to be implemented before the in dash gauge. So there is a method to all this madness

shiv

forza1976 · 03-20-2010, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Not quite yet. This next update release will involve progressive meth and nitrous control and infinitely adjustable mapping. The latter being a prerequisite for autotuning which will be the released shortly after that. A few CAN features need to be implemented before the in dash gauge. So there is a method to all this madness

shiv

Good stuff, thanks for the update.

scottp999 · 03-21-2010, 12:00 AM

Great progress. Just keeps getting better and better.

onesuperboi · 03-21-2010, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

lol yeah. On further thought, I'll refrain from commenting on their "approach"

Shiv

Haha. Hey, but it's a safe tune since there haven't been any catastrophic failuries. Right?

Makes me wonder though...

dlbrooks18 · 03-21-2010, 02:48 AM

good information, thanks.. seems like nitrous coupled with meth is the next progression for the N54 platform, and can squeeze out 500whp while retaining stock turbo's, and if done right it can be safe and also like that the turbo's are not being overworked.. sounds like a win all around

cn555ic · 03-21-2010, 07:25 AM

Shiv, which one should I get please advise!! Thanks...option 1 or 2????

http://www.nitrousexpress.com/produc...ils.php?id=858

http://www.nitrousexpress.com/produc...ils.php?id=887

XPO186 · 03-21-2010, 08:09 AM

very exciting stuff!

e.n335 · 03-21-2010, 08:57 AM

@ Shiv: Time for you to make an ECU flash, IMO. Diversification. Distribution should not be the issue tue to the available technology. The N54 is a great engine.

Clap135 · 03-21-2010, 09:00 AM

A ecu flash can't do any of this stuff. Why would he go that route?

e.n335 · 03-21-2010, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clap135

A ecu flash can't do any of this stuff. Why would he go that route?

Full control, real time. Shiv knows the N54 very well.

Clap135 · 03-21-2010, 09:06 AM

And what exactly about the current state is not full control, or real time?

03-20-2010, 10:36 PM	#1
OpenFlash 1750 Rep 17,960 Posts Drives: A Lot Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SF Bay, CA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2018 Ducati Panigal ... [0.00] 2016 Mazda CX5 [0.00] 2017 Aprilia Tuono ... [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00] 2015 BMW M5 Competi ... [10.00] 2016 Ducati XDiavel S [0.00] 2016 AMG GT S [0.00] 2011 Ferrari 458 It ... [0.00] 2017 Charger Hellcat [0.00] 2015 KTM Super Duke ... [0.00] 2016 KTM RC390 [0.00]	Did this last night. Running MS109 fuel, I started off with a modified Stg 1 map which made ~375whp on our 6MT test car. I did not start off with the usual Stg 3+ map that makes considerably more power. The idea behind running nitrous, as I see it, was to not have to squeeze out max power from the turbos. So the results below are no means a max power tune. The only thing the runs share in common is relative boost pressure (peak 12-13psi). Throughout the course of the night, tested different jet sizes (starting with .18 and ending with .32 with many sizes along the way) and progressive control strategies. This involves different solenoid frequency/duration during nitrous onset to smooth the transition when nitrous engages. As well as how and when (with respect to RPM), the nitrous disables. You can see the progress below: For the time being, I'm kept the activation RPM to 4000rpm. But this can be lowered a bit to 3000rpm or so. In the end, we ended up making an additional ~90whp while still keeping the turbos from working too hard. I did notice that the engine was far more responsive to increases in nozzle size at moderate power levels. Above 450whp, the incremental gains became harder to come by. Yes, it is possible to make another 20-30whp by simply using a larger nozzle but it would take considerably more nitrous to do it. It would appear that the bottleneck is in the exhaust side. And the only thing there are the turbine housings which, understandably, aren't suited to flow 550+bhp worth of exhaust flow. But the cool part is not how much power it picked up, but how it picked it up and what safety precautions we have in place to keep everything running safely. And after that, we'll see how it did on the track when subjected to gear changes and various rates of RPM rise. Coming up next...
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03-20-2010, 10:36 PM	#2
OpenFlash 1750 Rep 17,960 Posts Drives: A Lot Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SF Bay, CA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2018 Ducati Panigal ... [0.00] 2016 Mazda CX5 [0.00] 2017 Aprilia Tuono ... [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00] 2015 BMW M5 Competi ... [10.00] 2016 Ducati XDiavel S [0.00] 2016 AMG GT S [0.00] 2011 Ferrari 458 It ... [0.00] 2017 Charger Hellcat [0.00] 2015 KTM Super Duke ... [0.00] 2016 KTM RC390 [0.00]	Nitrous has a bad reputation. And it is somewhat undeserved. Nitrous itself isn't the dangerous monster that many think it is. Engine damage from sheer power loads are rare. Instead, the troublemaker is almost always caused by the nitrous control system and supporting tune. Nitrous is nothing more than a compressed oxygen-rich liquid that is crammed into a high pressure tank and routed to the engine. The gateway device that keeps the nitrous from being injected into the engine is a large solenoid. This solenoid is controlled by either a computer/controller (at best) or a simple full throttle switch under your gas pedal (at absolute worst). Once the nitrous is released into the engine, it quickly turns into gas and under goes a chemical reaction where the oxygen frees from the nitrogen. The nitrogen acts as a buffer gas to slow down the process as well as to absorb heat. The oxygen gets burned and turns into power. The end result is a more powerful bang and a reduction in intake charge temps through heat robbed from change of state from liquid to gas. This is not to be mistaken for a reduction in cylinder temps which is largely proportional with power output. These temps are high. And can get VERY high (like engine melting high) when nitrous is used for too long (heat builds up) or when not mixed with the correction proportion of fuel. Or when run with insufficient octane or with excessive ignition timing. The margin for safety is also considerably small with only a few things keeping a safe running engine from becoming a broken engine. Typical rules of thumb when running nitrous: -DO NOT to rely on the knock sensor. Because by the time the DME detects and retards timing, engine damage can already be induced. This means your ignition timing map should be proactive when it comes to avoiding knock. Not reactive. -DO Run high octane fuel for larger nitrous induced power gains. If you are running a small shot that only picks up 15-30whp, octane isn't as critical as the reduction in charge temp goes a long way in reducing knock tendancy. Similar to installing an upgraded intercooler. For larger power gains, running race gas is cheap insurance. -DO Keep AFR rich. Especially torwards the end of the run as this is where in-cylinder temps are the hottest. This is because heat is accumulated quicker than it is shed. -DO NOT engine nitrous for more than 10 seconds at a time. This means nitrous is NOT a suitable power adder for those who are running the Texas mile or doing a top speed run on the Autobahn. -DO NOT engine nitrous when the engine is cold. Engine needs to be fully up to temp with all tolerances within their optimal ranges. Or else excessive wear can occur. -DO NOT spray nitrous when the throttle is closed or else it will back up and create a very o2 rich condition when the throttle opens up again. This can cause a lean run condition which is a no-no. -DO NOT spray nitrous until AFR is stabilized. This is especially important when running a dry shot (ie, spraying nitrous alone and not a nitrous/fuel mixture). Spraying nitrous on an already lean-running engine will make it run even leaner. Even if it's just for a very short period of time (until the DME adjusts fuel trims). This may only take a fraction of a second. But for an engine that is spinning at 4000rpm (nearly 70 rotations per second), that is a painful eternity. -DO NOT engine nitrous at a low engine speed as this can cause a situation where too much nitrous is sprayed onto an engine that isn't consuming air quickly enough. This can cause a nitrous backfire will, as we learned in Fast and the Furious, can blow your manifold off. As well as your diamond plated floorboard. From what I've heard at least. -DO retard timing during the onset of nitrous. This will soften the initial torque impact as well greatly reduce the tendancy for the engine to knock during that engagement moment. -DO flutter the solenoid during nitrous engagement. This will also soften the impact of the nitrous and give a little bit more time for the fuel system (which isn't pressurized to 1000psi like the nitrous bottle) to catch up. -DO NOT engage nitrous while your 6AT is shifting. This will destroy your torque converter and result in shifting problems. Just ask Hotrod about his torque converter and overrev codes. There is no one single control system that is capable of satisfying all these conditions. Until now. So here is the logic we've whipped up to make sure nitrous is engined only when its safe. And disengaged immediately when conditions aren't safe. Befoe we go any further, I should state that the nitrous spray is not exactly triggered by the Procede. It is triggered by a button that you can mount anywhere. I put it on my steering wheel. The Procede enables the functionality of the trigger button. So that it only works when conditions are good. This also means that the user can simply keep the button pressed, drive the car, and let the Procede turn on/off the nitrous as the engine transitions from different conditions. So, the Procede, which fortunately can read heaps of CAN data, will only allow the nitrous trigger to arm when: - Engine is within the allowable operating CAN oil temp range (170F to 250F). - Applied throttle is 100% - Actual CAN throttle is over 75%. This means that the nitrous will flicker off when the actual throttle closes due to boost targetting or traction control intervention. Just triggering off of applied throttle is useless since it does not always reflace actual throttle. - Methanol must be flowing at least 500ml/min (also read by the Procede) - AFR must be richer than ~12.5:1 - Boost must be over 10psi (so that it doesn't trigger early during spool-up and create an overboost condition). - The car is in a gear and NOT in the middle of a gearchange condition. Through CAN data, it detects this regardless of whether you shift at redline or at 4000rpm. - CAN Ignition advance must be below 14 degrees of timing. This is to avoid engaging nitrous while the DME is in the middle of a calculated load transition. This means the DME doesn't have to react to the knock when it is avoided in the first place. When ALL these conditions are met, ONLY then will the nitrous trigger be armed. And when arming is combined with the user input (button pressed) the nitrous will spray. Either all at once, or gradually over the next .5-1 second depending on what you want and how big of jet you are running. Next up: How we control the fueling side of the equation Last edited by OpenFlash; 09-13-2010 at 12:56 PM..
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03-20-2010, 10:37 PM	#3
OpenFlash 1750 Rep 17,960 Posts Drives: A Lot Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SF Bay, CA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2018 Ducati Panigal ... [0.00] 2016 Mazda CX5 [0.00] 2017 Aprilia Tuono ... [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00] 2015 BMW M5 Competi ... [10.00] 2016 Ducati XDiavel S [0.00] 2016 AMG GT S [0.00] 2011 Ferrari 458 It ... [0.00] 2017 Charger Hellcat [0.00] 2015 KTM Super Duke ... [0.00] 2016 KTM RC390 [0.00]	Datalog of a 11.4@128mph pass Last edited by OpenFlash; 03-21-2010 at 07:30 PM..
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03-20-2010, 10:43 PM	#4
lamia2super Colonel 142 Rep 2,661 Posts Drives: 335i Join Date: May 2008 Location: Miami Beach, FL iTrader: (4) Garage List 2007 335i [10.00]	__________________ FOR SALE https://www.e90post.com/forums/showt...0#post25342440
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03-20-2010, 10:51 PM	#5
Irishace ElevenPointFive 327 Rep 2,450 Posts Drives: E90 335 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Toronto iTrader: (1)	Umm,sick, great work Shiv! __________________ 2008 E90 335xi - N54 Daily Driver MHD Stage 2+ ~ CPE DPs ~ BMS Intake ~ AMS FMIC
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03-20-2010, 10:57 PM	#6
ridin135 Colonel 131 Rep 2,408 Posts Drives: Depends on the day Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Greenville iTrader: (7)	Shiv what are your thoughts about power increase with 14psi instead of 12?
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03-20-2010, 11:24 PM	#7
TMR Brigadier General 395 Rep 3,161 Posts Drives: M3 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Torrance iTrader: (12)	This is awesome!! __________________ 2015 M3 BPM Tuned, Eibach, Magnaflow and more www.tmrmzine.com/m3/f80 SOLD E92 Slēk Carbon Fiber Widebody M3 www.tmrmzine.com/m3/slek/ SOLD E92 335i Stage 3+ with all the toys www.tmrmzine.com/335/ SOLD E39 M5 Modded, What a great car! www.tmrmzine.com/m5/
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03-20-2010, 11:42 PM	#8
OpenFlash 1750 Rep 17,960 Posts Drives: A Lot Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: SF Bay, CA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2018 Ducati Panigal ... [0.00] 2016 Mazda CX5 [0.00] 2017 Aprilia Tuono ... [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00] 2015 BMW M5 Competi ... [10.00] 2016 Ducati XDiavel S [0.00] 2016 AMG GT S [0.00] 2011 Ferrari 458 It ... [0.00] 2017 Charger Hellcat [0.00] 2015 KTM Super Duke ... [0.00] 2016 KTM RC390 [0.00]	More tech posted above. And a LOT more to come
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03-20-2010, 11:46 PM	#9
onesuperboi Major 52 Rep 1,357 Posts Drives: '08 e92 335i COBB 4.01 Stage 1 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bay Area, CA (Alameda) iTrader: (6)	Hahaha. Have you noticed the new thread for JB3 NOS? That was a quick reaction! Seems kinda basic though...
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03-21-2010, 12:00 AM	#14
scottp999 Brigadier General 133 Rep 4,764 Posts Drives: 4runner SR5 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: MD iTrader: (2) Garage List 2007 BMW 335 [9.00]	Great progress. Just keeps getting better and better.
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03-21-2010, 02:48 AM	#16
dlbrooks18 Brigadier General 163 Rep 3,736 Posts Drives: e90 335i Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Los Angeles iTrader: (2)	good information, thanks.. seems like nitrous coupled with meth is the next progression for the N54 platform, and can squeeze out 500whp while retaining stock turbo's, and if done right it can be safe and also like that the turbo's are not being overworked.. sounds like a win all around __________________ 2008 E90 335
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03-21-2010, 07:25 AM	#17
cn555ic 442 Rep 18,331 Posts Drives: 335i Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: US iTrader: (6)	Shiv, which one should I get please advise!! Thanks...option 1 or 2???? http://www.nitrousexpress.com/produc...ils.php?id=858 http://www.nitrousexpress.com/produc...ils.php?id=887 Last edited by cn555ic; 03-21-2010 at 07:31 AM..
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03-21-2010, 08:09 AM	#18
XPO186 Colonel 128 Rep 2,740 Posts Drives: E92 335i Join Date: May 2007 Location: Albany, NY iTrader: (19)	very exciting stuff! __________________
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03-21-2010, 08:57 AM	#19
e.n335 Moderator 273 Rep 4,481 Posts Drives: e93 ///M3 DCT, 07/2009 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Switzerland, ZH iTrader: (0)	@ Shiv: Time for you to make an ECU flash, IMO. Diversification. Distribution should not be the issue tue to the available technology. The N54 is a great engine.
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03-21-2010, 09:00 AM	#20
Clap135 Brigadier General 103 Rep 3,460 Posts Drives: 2009 N54 Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Sticky's Mom House iTrader: (1)	A ecu flash can't do any of this stuff. Why would he go that route?
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03-21-2010, 09:06 AM	#22
Clap135 Brigadier General 103 Rep 3,460 Posts Drives: 2009 N54 Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Sticky's Mom House iTrader: (1)	And what exactly about the current state is not full control, or real time?
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